Porch Pirates

[TGB1718]

Here in the UK most delivery drivers need to take a photo of the package in your hand or they won't

leave it, some of the smaller (cheaper) companies will drop light/small packages over my gate, its over 6 feet

high and electric, so can't be opened without a remote. 

And a CCTV pointing at the gate if any ambitious crook wants to try climbing over the spikes on the top of the gate 

 

[+scorpio_ny]

The delivery people started to do the same here in the US. And the theft does not just happen in houses either. At my building, some of the lazier couriers refuse to deliver to the actual apartment and leave the package downstairs after being buzzed in. Leaving the recipient to go downstairs to get their package. Sometimes by the time they get downstairs, the package is already stolen. 

[reifsnyderb]

I've been keeping his name quiet so as to see where this goes.  He now confirmed he's going to file a PayPal claim with me over this.  I'll never do any business with Joe Radomski again.  So, if you ship something to Joe Radomski and he even has a video of that item being stolen from him, Joe Radomski will want you to pay for it.

 

 

[Geister]

This is a sad statement of the about how bad things have gotten in the world that people will steal anything and everything they can get their hands on even if it's not likely to be something they can use or sell just on the chance they can make money on it.  Luckily, I am retired and can be at the door to receive the package if it comes during normal delivery times, but we have seen that not even "signature required" can guarantee that the package won't just be dropped and abandoned by the delivery person if you don't get to the door quickly enough.

 

I would rather have to get the package redelivered or make the trip to the industrial park to receive the package than have the box unceremoniously dropped on my porch.

 

@TGB1718 I would love to see video of a porch pirate climbing an electric fence!   

 

As for having your package stole in the building you live in, maybe you need to talk to the building security about constant surveillance in the lobby and see if they have better than a potato-cam that caught the thief.  It would suck to find out that a neighbor stole your package but maybe it wouldn't happen a second time it they were caught.

[_The Doctor__]

it will all end up on theftbay, where the fence and pawn are one and the same.

[+bent_pin]

1 hour ago, reifsnyderb said:

I've been keeping his name quiet so as to see where this goes.  He now confirmed he's going to file a PayPal claim with me over this.  I'll never do any business with Joe Radomski again.  So, if you ship something to Joe Radomski and he even has a video of that item being stolen from him, Joe Radomski will want you to pay for it.

 

 

Zero perspiration, buddy. You have shipping and delivery confirmation. You're good. I've been through it before, all they need from you is tracking info showing delivery. Let him file his little report and don't reply to him directly anymore. After paypal rejects his claim, he's likely to attempt a chargeback as well. You can defeat that the same way and include your paypal claim result to help.

 

In the future there is no reason not to require signature confirmation.

 

Also, put him on the bad buyer list I always check there before shipping out anything over $100.

[reifsnyderb]

6 hours ago, bent_pin said:

Zero perspiration, buddy. You have shipping and delivery confirmation. You're good. I've been through it before, all they need from you is tracking info showing delivery. Let him file his little report and don't reply to him directly anymore. After paypal rejects his claim, he's likely to attempt a chargeback as well. You can defeat that the same way and include your paypal claim result to help.

 

In the future there is no reason not to require signature confirmation.

 

Also, put him on the bad buyer list I always check there before shipping out anything over $100.

Thanks for the bad buyer list link.  I will be taking advantage of that.   🙂

 

I just checked the tracking and it's been cleared.  USPS doesn't keep the tracking for longer than 120 days.....as per an internet search.  Even so, I have this letter provided to me by Mr. Radomski....

USPS Letter RE Joe Radomski.docx

 

[reifsnyderb]

7 hours ago, Geister said:

This is a sad statement of the about how bad things have gotten in the world that people will steal anything and everything they can get their hands on even if it's not likely to be something they can use or sell just on the chance they can make money on it.  Luckily, I am retired and can be at the door to receive the package if it comes during normal delivery times, but we have seen that not even "signature required" can guarantee that the package won't just be dropped and abandoned by the delivery person if you don't get to the door quickly enough.

 

I would rather have to get the package redelivered or make the trip to the industrial park to receive the package than have the box unceremoniously dropped on my porch.

 

@TGB1718 I would love to see video of a porch pirate climbing an electric fence!   

 

As for having your package stole in the building you live in, maybe you need to talk to the building security about constant surveillance in the lobby and see if they have better than a potato-cam that caught the thief.  It would suck to find out that a neighbor stole your package but maybe it wouldn't happen a second time it they were caught.

What's worse is when somebody admits they know an item was stolen off of their own porch yet wants somebody else to pay for it.....such as the seller.

[+Torq]

Worse still ... the types that expect the seller to cover post-delivery theft ... may just be having their mate(s) come and around and "steal" the package (with face(s) suitably covered, of course) ... so they get the item and the refund (or replacement).

 

 

[reifsnyderb]

Mr. Radomski has been added to the "Bad Trader Alert" thread.

 

https://forums.atariage.com/topic/87198-bad-trader-alert/page/46/

 

[+batari]

On 12/22/2023 at 9:18 AM, reifsnyderb said:

This is my thought.  I got it done.  Why should I be liable?

Amazon and other huge retailers (that can easily afford the loss), seem to have created the belief that sellers are on the hook for offering free replacements for theft.

 

However, this is a bit different than the usual case. Most of the time when an item is marked delivered and not there when the buyer gets home, we don't actually know whether it was stolen or if the carrier misdelivered, lied or screwed up. So without knowing what happened, morally the seller may be on the hook to resolve the matter. I have had to refund several times when the carrier messed up or when nobody knows what really happened.

 

However, your buyer actually showed you proof that it was stolen, so we see that the carrier did their job correctly and so did you, so morally the onus should not be on you (though, because of big retailers creating some expectation that sellers are responsible for theft after the job was done, you may still lose this one, unfortunately.)

[+bent_pin]

1 hour ago, reifsnyderb said:

just checked the tracking and it's been cleared.  USPS doesn't keep the tracking for longer than 120 days.....as per an internet search

Always back up your documentation in cases being disputed. I doubt PayPal will let him file a claim after so long though.

[+bent_pin]

Apparently it's 180 days. After you win the dispute with your letter from the post office, report the buyer to PayPal and ask the to investigate how many claims that he's filed after 120 days. I had more than a few people booted off eBay when I pointed out their shady dealings through a complaint.

[TGB1718]

18 hours ago, Geister said:

@TGB1718 I would love to see video of a porch pirate climbing an electric fence!

That would be funny, but illegal unfortunately.

Maybe I could take some of the "electric rope" the farmer uses in the field next to me to keep his sheep in

and weave it into the gate and hope no one notices, it just looks like red nylon rope, but if you look carefully

there's a thin wire woven into it

 

[reifsnyderb]

On 4/13/2024 at 8:11 PM, bent_pin said:

Apparently it's 180 days. After you win the dispute with your letter from the post office, report the buyer to PayPal and ask the to investigate how many claims that he's filed after 120 days. I had more than a few people booted off eBay when I pointed out their shady dealings through a complaint.

lol

 

I just checked with the Post Office.  They no longer have a record of the shipment.  (Fortunately, I have the letter the buyer supplied.)  Looking at the timeline, I shipped the item on December 14, 2023.  He filed his PayPal dispute on April 13, 2024.  This is exactly 121 days after I shipped the item. 

 

See bottom of the page:  https://faq.usps.com/s/article/USPS-Tracking-The-Basics

 

USPS tracking is retained for 120 days.

 

The timeline alone is a pretty good argument for an attempt at fraud.  Throw in the letter and the buyer's own belief a porch pirate got it.   lol

 

We'll see what PayPal says.   🙂

 

 

 

 

 

[+bent_pin]

@reifsnyderb How did you get hooked up the this butthead in the first place?

[+bent_pin]

[reifsnyderb]

Well, I figure it's only fair that I post a follow-up.

 

PayPal ruled against me as they didn't accept the letter from USPS and provided by Mr. Radomsky, himself, that stated the package had been delivered.  Then, they had the audacity to charge me another $15.00 for contesting the dispute.  With the extra $15.00, I am out a total of $123.00  It doesn't look like they bothered to check out the message screenshots showing that Mr. Radomsky knew it was stolen in the first place.

 

I will say this:  Not only will I never do business with Mr. Radomsky again, but if I get a suspicion that somebody else is being used by him as a proxy I won't sell to them, either.

 

So, if you want to use PayPal to get free stuff, file a dispute 121 days after delivery to ensure that USPS has deleted the tracking information.  PayPal allows for disputes to be filed up to 180 days after delivery and long after USPS deleted the tracking information.

 

I guess the moral of the story is I am responsible for porch pirates even if somebody confirms the package I shipped was stolen off of their own porch.

 

Needless to say, when I build something that takes weeks to design, requires prototypes, requires countess hours building, many hours testing and tuning it to also discover I am also responsible for theft after delivery, I believe I need to re-evaluate the situation.  (I also spent a couple hours compiling all of the messages and other information, to provide to PayPal to support my position.)

 

Right now, my options are....

1.  I can increase my shipping rates, charge more, require signature delivery, and take my chances that I still won't be responsible for theft.

2.  I can take up more of my time, track every package, and download the tracking information.  Maybe PayPal would accept this? 

3.  I can muddle on as I am doing, refund anything upon demand, and do nothing.

4.  I can increase my prices so as to cover this sort of thing. 

5.  I can finish up what I am working on and move on to better pastures.

 

Right now, option 5 is looking really good.   😞    I absolutely refuse to also be responsible for somebody else's theft.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Note that the document, below, with the title of "Response Re Case..." has the screenshots and messages showing proof the items listed in the summary.

 

 

 

 

 

[Overange]

I have heard there are avenues for contesting PayPal's decision in a dispute.

PayPal usually provides a process for appealing their decision, such as submitting additional evidence or requesting a review of the case by a higher authority within PayPal's dispute resolution team.

When contesting a decision, it's important to carefully follow PayPal's instructions and provide any relevant information or documentation that supports your case.

This could include additional proof of delivery, communication with the buyer, or any other evidence that sheds light on the situation.

While there's no guarantee of success in contesting a decision, it's worth pursuing if you believe that PayPal's initial ruling was unjust or inaccurate.

Be sure to review PayPal's policies and procedures for disputes to understand the specific steps and requirements for appealing a decision.

[_The Doctor__]

paypal can reverse their decision following the above procedure and you can always provide all information to your bank etc and have them reverse the charge-back.

I never leave anything in the paypal accounts. I only put in what they need and always pull the money the second it arrives or on the very day it can be released.

They all suck!

[_The Doctor__]

What is the correct spelling of this asshats last name and what City/State is he in, I'd like to make sure he's on my no soup for you lists.

[invisible kid]

That is beyond the pale. I've used Ebay/PayPal less and less over the years, but hearing this, I am going to try to avoid using them at all from now on. Disgusting. Unless they embrace sanity on an appeal. Sorry man, salt in the wound.

Edited May 15 by invisible kid

[Geister]

Always gotta be somebody ruining it for the rest of us.  

 

I gotta be honest, I never saw the need for paypal in the first place.  Just another asshole inserting themselves in between us and our money.  What purpose do they provide?

[darwinmac]

43 minutes ago, Geister said:

Always gotta be somebody ruining it for the rest of us.  

 

I gotta be honest, I never saw the need for paypal in the first place.  Just another asshole inserting themselves in between us and our money.  What purpose do they provide?

PayPal provides a PCI-compliant platform. I’m pretty sure most retro hardware I’ve purchased came from people who used PayPal to accept payment. I wouldn’t give my credit card info to some unknown payment system. Too many security holes. 
 

That said, @reifsnyderb got ripped off. I’m not going to excuse that. I’m just saying some provider like PayPal is necessary for accepting payment safely when you are purchasing from someone who isn’t local. 
 

The exception for when I didn’t use PayPal is when Gavin had his store open and it supported Apple Pay over the web. That allowed me to safely pay Gavin without providing my credit card on a possibly insecure system. 
 

Bob C

Edited May 15 by darwinmac
Added merchant that supported Apple Pay

[jhd]

13 hours ago, reifsnyderb said:

Right now, my options are....

1.  I can increase my shipping rates, charge more, require signature delivery, and take my chances that I still won't be responsible for theft.

2.  I can take up more of my time, track every package, and download the tracking information.  Maybe PayPal would accept this? 

3.  I can muddle on as I am doing, refund anything upon demand, and do nothing.

4.  I can increase my prices so as to cover this sort of thing. 

5.  I can finish up what I am working on and move on to better pastures.

 

Is limiting yourself to the local market an option, i.e. only deal with customers who are willing to meet you in-person and pay cash? This completely avoids shipping, PayPal, and all that nonsense. 

 

There used to be a retro hardware repair facility located in a city where I previously lived. After a few years in business, the proprietor made the decision to completely cease doing any work by mail. Thereafter, all transactions occurred at his workshop.