Atari 2600+ Beta Update 1.1

[Thomas Jentzsch]

5 hours ago, mastic_man said:

John tested & confirmed doesnt work with Harmony in developer mode or melody boards using standard SB. 

Actually I did most of the testing.  

 

There I found out that the this only very rarely works. I had tested with Space Rocks. It works, only the logo is garbled at the title screen. The earlier Elevator Action demos somehow work too, but with glitches. Earlier Zookeeper demos work too. However many ROMs refused to even load onto my Harmony (Dracionian, Mappy, SF2, WoW, Super Cobra Arcade, Zeviouz, Galagon, RobotWar-2684: "Cannot compress F4 binary").

 

I think all games up to 16K can be made running using that trick, no matter what bankswitching they are using. For 32K games there is some compression involved (probably to make room for some driver code). If that fails (not enough compression possible) or affects the game code, the game will not run. The 32K games may work better with an Encore, I don't know. 

 

BTW: I got Boulder Dash working that way too.  

[Thomas Jentzsch]

5 hours ago, Ben from Plaion said:

However Maze Craze does a weird flip to 50hz once the game starts. 

While Maze Craze creates the labyrinth, it does not produce a valid video signal. There is no VSYNC.

 

Since Stella's auto detection fails for this reason, the NTSC version has properties defined, which set the correct framerate. Its the only NTSC game, where this is required.

[Blinky]

57 minutes ago, MarcinJ said:

Do you need admin rights to update the 2600+ unit with windows?

admin rights are needed to install the rockchip driver.

[AtariYMás009]

39 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

Since the issue appears with 60Hz too, it is a more fundamental problem, which is unrelated to the 50Hz feature. 

but the problems of sprites disappearing in NTSC games only occur on certain units, when PAL games ran at 60Hz in version 1.0 there were no problems of this type, and in the case of Pac-Man for example, there have been no no problem in the NTSC version, while when moving to 50Hz in version 1.1 with Pac-Man PAL we already began to see the problems with the sprites

[AtariYMás009]

Something that @Ben from Plaionalready mentioned was applying 60Hz again in version 1225, so that we can enjoy the rest of the aspects of the update.
Obviously this is not definitive and it is clear that a solution must be found, but at least it will allow PAL users to enjoy the rest of the update's content without the ghosts disappearing in Pac-Man or the logs disappearing in Frogger.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

11 minutes ago, AtariYMás009 said:

but the problems of sprites disappearing in NTSC games only occur on certain units, when PAL games ran at 60Hz in version 1.0 there were no problems of this type, and in the case of Pac-Man for example, there have been no no problem in the NTSC version, while when moving to 50Hz in version 1.1 with Pac-Man PAL we already began to see the problems with the sprites

Yes, and all that shows, that the problem is unrelated to the 50Hz feature. If it would be only the 50Hz feature, then NTSC games wouldn't be affected now.

[AtariYMás009]

6 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

Yes, and all that shows, that the problem is unrelated to the 50Hz feature. If it would be only the 50Hz feature, then NTSC games wouldn't be affected now.

So what is the factor that makes PAL games work without problem at 60Hz in 1.0 but not at 50Hz in 1.1?

and also for NTSC, although to a lesser extent.

Maybe some sort of frameskip which has been talked about for a while here

Edited January 19 by AtariYMás009

[Ben from Plaion]

Guys, thank you all for all your posts, we know where the issues are - this comes from all the detailed feedback from you, we are working on a solution. I'm going to cool it publicly for a short while regarding the update and wait for the experts to find a solution. 

[AtariYMás009]

6 minutes ago, Ben from Plaion said:

Guys, thank you all for all your posts, we know where the issues are - this comes from all the detailed feedback from you, we are working on a solution. I'm going to cool it publicly for a short while regarding the update and wait for the experts to find a solution. 

glad to hear that, I'm impressed and very grateful for how hard you work to make this console much more playable and close to the original one

[JetmanUK]

On 1/6/2024 at 8:19 PM, Atari_Warlord said:

I just finished testing all of my NTSC 2600 carts that had problems in 1.0 with the updated dumper and 1.1 version.  The list of issues is below and I tried to add a description of the problems.  I approximated the number of games that use the alternate controllers using the Atariage database, happy to update those if someone has better numbers.  I'll start with what changed on my list.

 

Games that came off the list because they are working now (ignoring special controller needs):

 

Basic Programming - I think my cart saw me looking at Ebay and decided it better start working

Circus Convoy

Magicard & Videolife - the plus requires a hard reboot after these have been loaded for some reason

Mountain King

Rally Racer

Rush Hour

Sound Paddle

Space Jockey - Similar to my Basic Programming, it started working again

Zarkstars - Ground Force

 

Games that were added to the list, not because of new problems:

 

Missile Command Collector's Edition

Thrust+ - I have 3 versions but haven't determined if any of them are playable with the right settings

Yars' Return - I still have heat issues and may need to learn how to take this apart to see if I can figure out what is happening

 

There are 3 games that I'm not sure if my cart is good or not, would be great if someone else with these could test them:

 

2600 Signal Tracing

Asteroids Deluxe

Jungle Fever

 

The list:

 

 

1	Keyboard Controller Games	At least 18 games
2	Driving Controller Games	At least 5 games
3	Trackball Mode Games	At least 11 games
4	Light Gun Games	At least 7 games
5	Supercharger Games	At least 14 games
6	Rom Carts (A26 Maxicart, Krokodile, Cuttle Cart)
7	Misc Peripherals (AtariVox, Quadtari, Booster Grip)
8	2600 Signal Tracing Cart	Might be bad cart, doesn't work on original 2600
9	Aardvark	Game freezes when button pressed to start
10	Asteroids Deluxe	Might be bad cart, doesn't work on original 2600
11	Boulder Dash	Loading Game Failed
12	Brik	Loads, but accepts no inputs
13	Bump ‘N’ Jump	Blank screen on attempted load
14	Burgertime	Doesn't load properly
15	Chetiry	Loading Game Failed
16	Crack'ed (earlier version)	Blank screen on attempted load
17	Dare Devil	Loading Game Failed
18	Deepstone Catacomb	Loading Game Failed
19	Draconian	Loads to pulsing line screen
20	Dragon Chase	Doesn't load properly
21	Dragon’s Descent	Game won't advance past starting screen
22	End	Loading Game Failed
23	Epic Adventure	Doesn't load properly
24	Escape from the Castle	Loading Game Failed
25	Evil Magician II	Doesn't load properly
26	Fall Down	Player 2 has no control
27	Funky Fish	Loading Game Failed
28	Galagon	Loads to pulsing line screen
29	Gingerbread Man	Loading Game Failed
30	Gorf Arcade	Loads to pulsing line screen
31	Grizzards	Loads to blank screen with buzzing sound
32	James Bond 007	Blank screen on attempted load
33	Jungle Fever	Might be bad cart, doesn't work on original 2600
34	Lady Bug Arcade	Loads to pulsing line screen
35	Landfill	Appears to play but no sound
36	Load Runner	Loads to pulsing line screen
37	Looping	Blank screen on attempted load
38	Mappy	Loads to pulsing line screen
39	Masters of the universe – The Power of He Man	Doesn't load properly
40	Megaboy	Loading Game Failed
41	Millipede Track Ball Edition	Doesn't load properly, graphics incomplete
42	Missile Command CE	Loading Game Failed
43	Mr. Do! (Rev C)	Blank screen on attempted load
44	Omega Race	Loads, but fire button always on and booster grip not working
45	Panic! Rooms	Loading Game Failed
46	Pitfall II	Doesn't load properly
47	Pleiades	Loading Game Failed
48	Qyx	Loads to pulsing line screen
49	RealSports Boxing	Doesn't load properly, scrolling screen
50	Robot Tank	Doesn't load properly, scrolling screen
51	Robotwar	Loads to pulsing line screen
52	RubyQ	Loads to pulsing line screen
53	Scramble (Champ Games)	Loading Game Failed
54	Seaweed Assault	Loading Game Failed, Older version works
55	Smurfs Save the Day	Blank screen on attempted load
56	Space Cactus Canyon	Loading Game Failed
57	Space Rocks	Loading Game Failed
58	Spike’s Peak	Loads but Joystick not active
59	Star Castle Arcade	Doesn't load properly, graphics incomplete
60	Stay Frosty 2	Blank screen on attempted load
61	Stella's Stocking	Blank screen on attempted load
62	Stratovox	Loading Game Failed
63	Super Cobra Arcade	Loads to pulsing line screen
64	The Byte before Christmas	Loading Game Failed
65	The Gizzle Wap and the Strange Red Tree	Loading Game Failed
66	The Music Machine	Loads but sound messed up
67	The Pursuit of the Pink Panther	Loading Game Failed
68	Thrust+, SE, DC, Platinum	All versions seem to have controller issues
69	Toyshop Trouble	Loading Game Failed
70	Turbo (Coleco)	Doesn't load properly, scrolling screen
71	Tyre Trax	Loading Game Failed
72	Unholy	Loading Game Failed
73	Venture Reloaded	Loads to high pitched sound and won't advance
74	Wizard of Wor (Champ Games)	Loads to pulsing line screen
75	X3V0lux	Loads, but accepts no inputs
76	Yars' Return	Only left side of playfield works, stopped loading
77	Zippy the Porcupine	Blank screen on attempted load
78	Zoltrix	Loading Game Failed
79	Zoo Keeper	Loads to pulsing line screen

 

What happens when you try Masters of the Universe? I note you've stated doesn't load properly. 

 

For me I am stuck on the title screen, just the transformation animation and the music. But I'm getting the same on a woody. Just confirming a dodgy cart before I send it back for a refund. Thanks.

Edited January 19 by JetmanUK

[Thomas Jentzsch]

14 minutes ago, JetmanUK said:

What happens when you try Masters of the he Universe?

It uses E7 bankswitching, which is yet unsupported by the dumper.

[JetSetIlly]

8 hours ago, DirtyHairy said:

It is definitely fixable. Rebuilding with PGO (and LTO if it hasn't been enabled) should give considerable improvement, as switching on a few defines that switch ARM emulation to faster and slightly less safe code paths. PGO isn't entirely trivial to automate though, as you have to run the application to generate a profile

Aren't PGO files produced by GCC platform independent? By which I mean, the automation for PGO generation could be done as part of the Stella release process.

[JetmanUK]

12 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

It uses E7 bankswitching, which is yet unsupported by the dumper.

Thanks for the reply Thomas. 

 

The game is newly purchased from the UK but is apparently NTSC. I get it may not work properly on the Plus, but when I try it in my PAL woody four switch I get the same result (apart from messed up colours, obviously), the animated intro and theme music, but I am unable to start the game. I've followed the difficulty switch info from the manual, no luck. 

 

Could it be that the cart is not bad and it just won't start (after the intro) as it's being played on a PAL console? Seems unlikely, seems like it's broken. I can post a video for both consoles to show what's happening. I just need to know if I should get a refund really. 

Edited January 19 by JetmanUK

[KainXavier]

Edit: Oops, nevermind!

Edited January 19 by KainXavier
Blinky already responded to MarcinJ's question.

[tradyblix]

11 hours ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

Currently 2600+ compatibility for ARM games means 2600+ compatibility only (the carts will not work in a real 2600). Very bad idea, IMO. And as of now, the 2600+ is way too slow to handle them anyway.

 

Also, as a homebrew developer, I am strictly against targeting development towards incompatible hardware. 

Strong Disagree. The ONLY REASON I am even playing or talking or interested in 2600 games, Stella, or any of that is the 2600+. Why ? Because I can't run my 2600 without a huge hassle. And it looks like CRAP on modern tvs. It doesn't even look as good as the 2600+ does when it runs on CRTs, when I had a CRT and space for one.

You can see the effect it had here, this place was so snoozy and a club for the only the most hardcore, with people waiting a week+ for replies in some cases, and the 2600+ finally got things alive here again for the first time in ... YEARS. 

 

Also, I don't think it has to be an either or situation. There's many homebrews I have that run that prove you can have them run on both. Maybe just consider when you start developing a game you intend to sell to enthusiasts for the same price as a modern PS5 AAA game that you might want to consider those that bought the 2600+ AS WELL. 

 

Eventually all the 2600s will be dead or in museums so 2600+ needs support so people will continue to want to make carts. Roms already probably had an enervating effect on whether it's worth anyones time, so cart solutions are important. I mean there are so many games i'd like to buy but can't because 1.) not available or 2.) super expensive. Rikki and Vikki cart is 500 bucks on eBay right now ! You have at least 50k new 2600+ owners to sell carts to IF YOUR CARTS WORK WITHOUT USING ARM CHIPS. But on the other hand, I can get those roms for nothing, and nobody gets paid. Seems like a good idea to support 2600+, right ? instead of being intransigent ??? 

 

It's okay. we don't need to agree. We're talking about a handful of obscure games from mainly Champ games anyway. Everything else mostly works. 

 

But whenever I run into the old "go run it on the original it works" that's not a solution for me. I also don't have a 7800. And judging from youtube and the enthusiasm shown, many others are in same boat. 

Satisfy the people who WOULD shell out 60 bucks for a cart, not fight them, that's what I say. 

Edited January 19 by tradyblix
spelling, clarifications

[+karri]

Compatibility with the 2600+ is going to be an important factor for developing new games. Cool new inventions like banksets are problematic as these carts won't run on the 2600+.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

4 minutes ago, karri said:

Compatibility with the 2600+ is going to be an important factor for developing new games. Cool new inventions like banksets are problematic as these carts won't run on the 2600+.

If a game which runs on real hardware doesn't run in Stella, we fix that. The same can be expected from the 2600+ dumper, no?

[+LS650]

18 minutes ago, tradyblix said:

It's okay. we don't need to agree. We're talking about a handful of obscure games from mainly Champ games anyway. Everything else mostly works.

I have to reluctantly agree with tradyblix.  I have a Heavy 6-er, a Sears Arcade ii, and a 2600 Jr all sitting in storage, while a Plus is on my coffee table connected to my HDMI screen.  Why?  Because the Plus puts out a (much) better video output.

 

If folks want to develop games that are compatible with the OG 2600 but not the Plus, that's terrific and I wish them well in their efforts, but sadly I won't be partaking if it isn't compatible with the Plus.  

[JetSetIlly]

4 minutes ago, LS650 said:

If folks want to develop games that are compatible with the OG 2600 but not the Plus,

Or developing games for the Atari 2600. If the Plus can't handle that then that's a problem for the Plus. not the game developer.

[tradyblix]

14 minutes ago, LS650 said:

I have to reluctantly agree with tradyblix.  I have a Heavy 6-er, a Sears Arcade ii, and a 2600 Jr all sitting in storage, while a Plus is on my coffee table connected to my HDMI screen.  Why?  Because the Plus puts out a (much) better video output.

 

If folks want to develop games that are compatible with the OG 2600 but not the Plus, that's terrific and I wish them well in their efforts, but sadly I won't be partaking if it isn't compatible with the Plus.  

No need to be reluctant LS650 ! lol. 

Look, I highly respect Thomas and the work he does to maintain and develop Stella. 

 

But that doesn't mean I have to agree with everything he says from on high. Sorry. 

I agree that 2600+ creators do have a part to play in this and they do need to improve dumper, but I also think that you know, treating 2600+ users as second class citizens when they are the most enthusiastic and likely candidates for developers to sell games too...doesn't make sense. 

Edited January 19 by tradyblix

[chad5200]

Maybe Champ Games should start making Double-Ender cartridges like Xonox did.  One side for the classic line and one side for the 2600+.  

[tradyblix]

4 minutes ago, chad5200 said:

Maybe Champ Games should start making Double-Ender cartridges like Xonox did.  One side for the classic line and one side for the 2600+.  

I know you meant this as a joke, but that would actually be AMAZING. Yes. This. 

[Thomas Jentzsch]

To how many incompatible consoles should we tailor our homebrews? 

Edited January 19 by Thomas Jentzsch

[+splendidnut]

Apparently if you don't target the 2600+,  you're treating the users as second class citizens.  Do you really want to do that @Thomas Jentzsch?  

 

[+splendidnut]

I'm going to apologize to the 2600+ users in advance.   I'm sorry, ChaoticGrill was not written with the 2600+ in mind.   Please get your torches lit and your pitchforks sharpened.