Would you be excited for an Atari ST mini ?

[Lostdragon]

As an Ex-520 STFM  owner, I have to be harsh and say whilst it scratched an itch at the time (my entry into 16-bit gaming), the answer is no. 

 

I hate AY sound... 

 

The platform lacks enough exclusives to interest me. 

[Giles N]

On 2/9/2024 at 12:44 AM, JPF997 said:

Now that the Atari 400 mini is a reality the probability that Atari's greatest system finally gets it's own  mini release is looking more likely than ever, would you be interested in getting a mini ST in the future if they ever announce one ?

Yes, if it presented the best, better or more unique (in a positive sense) sides of the Atari ST. That is: it featured licensed games that either were very good on the Arari ST and representative of it’s era, or games that may be unique to the ST (in-market or aftermarket), or games that weren’t on that many systems, but the ST had them. I’d like to see more more built-in games. I wouldn’t mind paying $10-50 more, if it, if it provided licensed and well-presented content (manuals, cover-art, etc). 
I’m happy with the 25 inbuilt games on the 400Mini. It seems they’ve picked things thst are doable and relevsnt. However, paying $120 or $150 or $170 isn’t that big deal for me. It’s more like; I’d rather pay a little bit more one time, and get quality instead of ending up wading kneedeep in innumerable half-baked retro-hardware things, each of one lacking something. 
 

These games looks interesting on the Atari ST:

 

Beyond the Ice Palace

Buggy Boy

Ikari Warriors

Lethal Xcess

Lotus Turbo 2

Lotus Turbo 3

Nebulus

Stunt Car Racer

Titus the Fox

Star Raiders (ST)

Vroom

Zero 5

 

Edited March 5 by Giles N

[Megalomaniac]

As a pure games device, realistically I don't think there's enough mainstream appeal. The Amiga outsold the ST roughly 2.5 to 1 globally, France is probably the only place where the ST did better, so there's a smaller potential market.

 

Did the ST have the definitive version of enough classic games? Almost every great ST game is available for the Amiga, almost always with better sound, often with at least superficial visual improvements, and often better scrolling. Even the STe, while an impressive system, didn't get many games that really exploited it. I'd struggle to list 25 games where the ST/STe version is the best (or most significant) one to have, with the Amiga there are hundreds.

 

As a music device with MIDI ports and Cubase integrated, with the likes of Dungeon Master, Blood Money and Obsession as a bonus feature, you might be on to something.

[theboyfromanotherplanet]

6 minutes ago, Megalomaniac said:

As a pure games device, realistically I don't think there's enough mainstream appeal. The Amiga outsold the ST roughly 2.5 to 1 globally, France is probably the only place where the ST did better, so there's a smaller potential market.

 

Did the ST have the definitive version of enough classic games? Almost every great ST game is available for the Amiga, almost always with better sound, often with at least superficial visual improvements, and often better scrolling. Even the STe, while an impressive system, didn't get many games that really exploited it. I'd struggle to list 25 games where the ST/STe version is the best (or most significant) one to have, with the Amiga there are hundreds.

 

As a music device with MIDI ports and Cubase integrated, with the likes of Dungeon Master, Blood Money and Obsession as a bonus feature, you might be on to something.

It was about 50/50 in the UK. I knew 4 other ST owners and 1 Amiga owner but I agree in general.

 

Personally I think it undersells the ST to pitch it as a pure games machine. It was an absolutely iconic music computer and 'probably' made jungle and rave happen. Midi and Cubase would be a cult USP I think. But then it would need tight timing and a keyboard.

 

Don't get me wrong, I play games on my ST daily. Vroom, Wings of Death, Obsession show off the STe really well. I've never even used an Amiga 🤣

[Hwlngmad]

Thinking more about this, I think if you have the ST mini come with applications (for music and/or "painting") as well as games, then maybe you would have something to differentiate it a bit from other similar products (cough, THEA500, cough).  Just some additional thought, because I think as purely a games machine it won't have as much appeal as others already out there.

[bfollowell]

51 minutes ago, Hwlngmad said:

Thinking more about this, I think if you have the ST mini come with applications (for music and/or "painting") as well as games, then maybe you would have something to differentiate it a bit from other similar products (cough, THEA500, cough).  Just some additional thought, because I think as purely a games machine it won't have as much appeal as others already out there.

Well, yeah, I guess that would differentiate it from others, but would be at all useful or appealing? I really don't think anyone is going to buy any mini computer of any flavor to tinker with old school word processing, painting, or music creation. I'm sure there might be a few old fans that would, but I seriously doubt there would be many. 

 

[Lostdragon]

On 3/5/2024 at 8:20 AM, Giles N said:

Yes, if it presented the best, better or more unique (in a positive sense) sides of the Atari ST. That is: it featured licensed games that either were very good on the Arari ST and representative of it’s era, or games that may be unique to the ST (in-market or aftermarket), or games that weren’t on that many systems, but the ST had them. I’d like to see more more built-in games. I wouldn’t mind paying $10-50 more, if it, if it provided licensed and well-presented content (manuals, cover-art, etc). 
I’m happy with the 25 inbuilt games on the 400Mini. It seems they’ve picked things thst are doable and relevsnt. However, paying $120 or $150 or $170 isn’t that big deal for me. It’s more like; I’d rather pay a little bit more one time, and get quality instead of ending up wading kneedeep in innumerable half-baked retro-hardware things, each of one lacking something. 
 

These games looks interesting on the Atari ST:

 

Beyond the Ice Palace

Buggy Boy

Ikari Warriors

Lethal Xcess

Lotus Turbo 2

Lotus Turbo 3

Nebulus

Stunt Car Racer

Titus the Fox

Star Raiders (ST)

Vroom

Zero 5

 

Rob Zydbel in trying to 'fix' Star Raiders (his words), took away a lot of the strategic elements of the A8 original, game is a lot easier and just gets boring, very quickly. 

 

Sound is awful on it as well. 

 

Nebulus aka Tower Toppker, is more of a tech demo than game on any platform, very frustrating. 

 

Beyond The Ice Palace was originally intended to be a Thundercats game. 

 

https://www.gamesthatwerent.com/gtw64/thundercats-2/

 

Zero 5 is different to the Jaguar game. 

 

[Giles N]

1 hour ago, Lostdragon said:

Beyond The Ice Palace was originally intended to be a Thundercats game. 

Well, it feels very much like Elite Systems used the level-layout for the ‘unused’ levels for GnG for the C64, and repackaged some of it.

 

It anyway is a game I loved to play again and again on the C64, and if the Atari ST version plays well and have the nice soundtrack by David Whittaker, I think it’s cool independent of what it was supposed to be.

 

As to Nebulus: do you mean that it’s not a very ‘worthy game’ on any system?

I think it have certainly points where it should’ve been less-guess, less pure trial-and-error, and more ways of knowing the dangers, but it still fun once in a while.

 

Zero 5 - different than Jaguar. Ok. But is it a good game?

 

- - -

 

If Atari invests money for licensing stuff, perhaps getting good deals for same title on different systems can be a good way of getting to grips with re-releases? Like Nebulus for an Atari ST Mini + limited run Tower Toppler for the 7800 and/or a limited time DLC for Atari 50th (a DLC dedicated to show what 3rd party companies did with their hardware systems?) and something along the same line for Zero 5 for Atari ST and Jaguar…?

 

Edited March 9 by Giles N

[Giles N]

1 hour ago, Lostdragon said:

gets boring, very quickly. 

… and if you had to list 25-30 Atari ST games that should be on a emulator-system, which ones should it be…?

If you go by quality, how much it defined the system, how it defined the era, - which ones…?

[+DarkLord]

For me, it would not be so much individual titles (although it is ) but making sure that you've have

a good selection for each category of game.

 

So you'd want some in RPG's, some in Shooters, some in Action/Adventure, at least 1 really good text adventure,

etc, etc,...

 

I'm just throwing this out there because in general, I personally couldn't care less for an ST/STe "mini".

 

Show me a full sized remake with modern connectivity (and interfaces) and you might tweak my interest

a bit...  

 

 

[Lostdragon]

17 hours ago, Giles N said:

Well, it feels very much like Elite Systems used the level-layout for the ‘unused’ levels for GnG for the C64, and repackaged some of it.

 

It anyway is a game I loved to play again and again on the C64, and if the Atari ST version plays well and have the nice soundtrack by David Whittaker, I think it’s cool independent of what it was supposed to be.

 

As to Nebulus: do you mean that it’s not a very ‘worthy game’ on any system?

I think it have certainly points where it should’ve been less-guess, less pure trial-and-error, and more ways of knowing the dangers, but it still fun once in a while.

 

Zero 5 - different than Jaguar. Ok. But is it a good game?

 

- - -

 

If Atari invests money for licensing stuff, perhaps getting good deals for same title on different systems can be a good way of getting to grips with re-releases? Like Nebulus for an Atari ST Mini + limited run Tower Toppler for the 7800 and/or a limited time DLC for Atari 50th (a DLC dedicated to show what 3rd party companies did with their hardware systems?) and something along the same line for Zero 5 for Atari ST and Jaguar…?

 

 

I first encountered Nebulus on the C64 and was drawn in by the rotating tower effects, never seen anything like it before on the A8 or C64,but once I sat down to play it..

 

Ganeplay consisted of climbing up, slipping down, climbing up once more,again,falling  down a few stories, finding an elevator, but before I reached it, getting hit  by an enemy, start to climb back up, start to make progress run out of time. 

 

 

Not enjoyable. 

 

Tried it again on the ST, where i believe it uses even clever coding routines, something like upto 55 colours on-screen?, plus Parallax Scrolling. 

 

But personally i would rather the efforts of been devoted into improving the actual gameplay. 

 

From what I know of ST/Falcon Zero 5,It shares parts of the storyline with the Jaguar version ,tbut has a different  "mission" structure including "surface" missions where you go down to planets. 

 

It appeared a little too late in the ST's lifespan for myself, I had at this point sold up and was gaming on the Sega Megadrive. 

[Lostdragon]

17 hours ago, Giles N said:

… and if you had to list 25-30 Atari ST games that should be on a emulator-system, which ones should it be…?

If you go by quality, how much it defined the system, how it defined the era, - which ones…?

In all honesty, I would struggle. 

 

 

Maybe the likes of the following? 

 

Zero 5

 

Star Trek:Rebel Universe (yes, later converted to the C64, but ST first and better version).. 

 

Where Time Stood Still 

Rock ‘n’ Roll Clams

 

Whitewater Madness

 

Substation 

 

Purely from a graphics viewpoint, 
The Intruder Michel Ancel

 

Road Runner (not the greatest, but no Amiga version)

International Karate
 

[Lostdragon]

I'd also add maybe Verminator? 

 

 

[stirrell]

1. Dungeon Master

2. Oids

3. Llamatron

4. Asteroidia by Dave Munsie

5. Elite II

6. Starglider 2

7. Time Bandits

8. Xenon 2

9. No Second Prize

10. Substation

11. Super Sprint

12. Oxyd 

13. Midwinter

14. Populous

15. Stardust

16. Obsession

17. Sundog

18. Sensible Soccer

19. Zero 5

20. Attack of the Mutant Camels

21. Cannon Fodder

22. Rod-Land

23. Bubble Bobble

24. Gauntlet II

25. Lemmings

 

Obviously some of these have better versions on Amiga. But these were the games I thought of.

 

 

 

 

[RodLightning]

I second the idea of using the Mega Ste as a case design.  No fake keyboard necessary.  A standard usb keyboard could be plugged in if the user desired.  Built-in games would only require a gamepad or stick, included with the console.  I personally prefer the original Mega ST design to the wedding cake style Mega STe case, but I doubt the brand recognition problem would allow using either Mega design.  We would be more likely to get a tiny 1040STe with fake keyboard.   SD card slot for floppy image and hdd support would be mandatory.  I don't see either becoming reality, although anything is possible.

 

A few built-in games I would like to see, in no particular order:  Bubble Bobble, Stunt Car Racer, Vroom, RodLand, Atomic Robokid, Captain Blood, Populous, Rainbow Islands, Xenon, Xenon II, Gauntlet II.

[Zogging Hell]

I've not personally been that interested in the minis myself, but would probably buy an ST one if it came out, just for something to sit under the TV. I think any games on it should try and steer clear of the standard scrolling games as these are invariably marginally better (or in some horizontally scrolling games cases much better) on the Amiga. An ST one for me should concentrate on the ST's strengths where it could beat the Amiga handily, like early flat shaded 3D, god games and Dungeon crawlers, with a few exceptional mainstream scrolling games like Rainbow Islands or Xenon to cover the other bases. If the mini had a speed boost setting that would also help with the 3D that would also help with the 'must be 60 frames a second' crowd who are likely to blanch at the 10 fps of early 3D a bit. To me that would show the ST in its best light, rather than as a 'not quite a good' Amiga and would also make the library a bit more unique as not so many of those games make it to the minis. Main problem with all those games is they pretty much all need the keyboard, which never really suit the minis.

[Hwlngmad]

On 3/8/2024 at 5:55 PM, bfollowell said:

Well, yeah, I guess that would differentiate it from others, but would be at all useful or appealing? I really don't think anyone is going to buy any mini computer of any flavor to tinker with old school word processing, painting, or music creation. I'm sure there might be a few old fans that would, but I seriously doubt there would be many. 

 

Again, just was thinking what could be enough a differentiator for an ST mini device to exist.  Probably not the best idea, but I am sure if such a device were to come into existence it would just come with games only.

[RodLightning]

On 2/16/2024 at 3:08 AM, theboyfromanotherplanet said:

Personally, not much as I already have a couple of STs. 

Never owned an Amiga, never will, but I'll concede that it gets all the 16bit game glory. 

 

However, I think people forget that to many people the ST was iconic for things other than games. It was definitely an iconic music computer.

If it was cycle accurate and came with midi ports and Cubase etc, that would be pretty cool. Might be a USP.

Turn it in to a glorified MIDI port expander that also happens to be an iconic music computer with games. Why not 😁

 

Alec Empire talking about the ST music computer:

https://youtu.be/Gen5hCHi9I4?si=32f-0ewvupCLlDKq

 

1 hour ago, Hwlngmad said:

Again, just was thinking what could be enough a differentiator for an ST mini device to exist.  Probably not the best idea, but I am sure if such a device were to come into existence it would just come with games only.

Great ideas, I think.  Further, marketing a modern single board ST mini to the music industry could be a profitable avenue.  Imagine a solid state device in a heavy duty enclosure, styled after a Mega ST, complete with midi ports and tough enough for professional stage use.  Built in licensed software such as Cubase or Notator would be aimed at musicians who remember using it and appreciate the simple interface.  This is likely outside the scope of a company like Retro Games, and we probably wouldn't like the price tag on something made for that kind of use.  But, it definitely plays up to Atari's strength as a midi controller.  If the end product was faithful to the ST or STe, it could certainly be used for anything else.  I would prefer something like that rather than building a MiSTer and cobbling together all the optional ports to achieve the same result.

[Wayneb123]

Sure if it was in the form of the MegaSTE / TT030, otherwise I will just use the MiST, MiSTerFPGA or one of my real Atari computers.

[Megalomaniac]

On 3/10/2024 at 4:13 PM, stirrell said:

1. Dungeon Master

2. Oids

3. Llamatron

4. Asteroidia by Dave Munsie

5. Elite II

6. Starglider 2

7. Time Bandits

8. Xenon 2

9. No Second Prize

10. Substation

11. Super Sprint

12. Oxyd 

13. Midwinter

14. Populous

15. Stardust

16. Obsession

17. Sundog

18. Sensible Soccer

19. Zero 5

20. Attack of the Mutant Camels

21. Cannon Fodder

22. Rod-Land

23. Bubble Bobble

24. Gauntlet II

25. Lemmings

 

Obviously some of these have better versions on Amiga. But these were the games I thought of.

 

This is broadly what I'd be thinking of. Definitely no Cannon Fodder, the ST version is borderline unplayable because of the scrolling. Not sure I'd want a PD Asteroids clone, however good, and probably only one Minter game. I'd want more Thalion - Wings of Death (with both ST and STe modes) and Enchanted Land show what the ST could do in those areas. Blood Money, for similar reasons. Vroom as its one last iconic ST game that ended up on that other computer. I'd want a flight sim, maybe F19, and a point-and-click adventure, maybe a Sierra to show off the MIDI music. 

[JPF997]

On 3/10/2024 at 4:13 PM, stirrell said:

1. Dungeon Master

2. Oids

3. Llamatron

4. Asteroidia by Dave Munsie

5. Elite II

6. Starglider 2

7. Time Bandits

8. Xenon 2

9. No Second Prize

10. Substation

11. Super Sprint

12. Oxyd 

13. Midwinter

14. Populous

15. Stardust

16. Obsession

17. Sundog

18. Sensible Soccer

19. Zero 5

20. Attack of the Mutant Camels

21. Cannon Fodder

22. Rod-Land

23. Bubble Bobble

24. Gauntlet II

25. Lemmings

 

Obviously some of these have better versions on Amiga. But these were the games I thought of.

 

 

 

 

Why does no one ever bring up the Sega games? Sega was probably Atari's biggest partner from the ST era  up to the Jaguar, the ST versions of games like Golden Axe, Afterburner, Outrun and thunderblade I think would make  fine additions for a future  ST mini .

[stirrell]

1 minute ago, JPF997 said:

Why does no one ever bring up the Sega games? Sega was probably Atari's biggest partner from the ST era  up to the Jaguar, the ST versions of games like Golden Axe, Afterburner, Outrun and thunderblade I think would make  fine additions for a future  ST mini .

I personally never had Sega games on the ST. Honestly, though, I think of those games as closely being linked to the Sega Genesis and not the ST.

 

I really wouldn’t consider Sega a partner in regards to the Jaguar. They were in litigation with Atari and settled to allow Atari to bring some IP to the Jaguar but it never happened. They were also a direct competitor in the console space.

[JPF997]

4 minutes ago, stirrell said:

I personally never had Sega games on the ST. Honestly, though, I think of those games as closely being linked to the Sega Genesis and not the ST.

 

I really wouldn’t consider Sega a partner in regards to the Jaguar. They were in litigation with Atari and settled to allow Atari to bring some IP to the Jaguar but it never happened. They were also a direct competitor in the console space.

Didn't Jack Tramiel once say that Sega was his biggest ally in the  gaming market back in the early 90s ? I think I read that somewhere in an article a few years back. 

 

While it's true that games like Golden Axe and Outrun are of course associated with the Genesis far more than the ST I think the ST versions still deserve some attention, they're pretty solid ports for the most part.

 

Edited March 17 by JPF997

[roots.genoa]

4 hours ago, JPF997 said:

While it's true that games like Golden Axe and Outrun are of course associated with the Genesis far more than the ST I think the ST versions still deserve some attention, they're pretty solid ports for the most part.

But SEGA had nothing to do with them. They were published by US Gold and Virgin. Actually one of my favorite games on the ST was also a port of a SEGA arcade game, Time Scanner, and in this case there's no Genesis version at least. Anyway I don't think SEGA could allow these games to be included in a hypothetical ST Mini, since there were other developers and publishers involved.

[Lostdragon]

23 hours ago, roots.genoa said:

But SEGA had nothing to do with them. They were published by US Gold and Virgin. Actually one of my favorite games on the ST was also a port of a SEGA arcade game, Time Scanner, and in this case there's no Genesis version at least. Anyway I don't think SEGA could allow these games to be included in a hypothetical ST Mini, since there were other developers and publishers involved.

Exactly, they were just licensed from Sega by likes of US Gold, Activision etc for conversion to specific home formats like the ST, AMIGA, C64, ZX SPECTRUM and Amstrad CPC. 

 

The software houses then had the likes of Probe, Tiertex, Argonaut code the ST version's. 

 

ST OutRun was pretty mediocre, Golden Axe played in a small window, scrolling was rough, is missing the day colour cycle and of course, had single fire button controls.