(Regular) Pokey in FPGA?

[+mytek]

2 hours ago, Overange said:

 

This is an interesting watch, Shame the Pokey does so much more than the SID, as the PICO could be a great Low cost POKEY replacement.

 

And when building as few as five, it's only $15 a piece. Yes we need this for the Pokey. It'll happen at some point I'm sure - just a matter of time (but how much time will need to go by?).

 

I wish I was smarter 🤔

[reifsnyderb]

3 hours ago, Overange said:

 

This is an interesting watch, Shame the Pokey does so much more than the SID, as the PICO could be a great Low cost POKEY replacement.

 

This got me wondering if POKEY could be replaced by stacking 2 Pico's as opposed to using one.  This whole magical FPGA thing that can supposedly replace anything but is completely "unavailable" (to put it very, very, very politely and diplomatically) annoys me.

[Overange]

48 minutes ago, mytek said:

And when building as few as five, it's only $15 a piece. Yes we need this for the Pokey. It'll happen at some point I'm sure - just a matter of time (but how much time will need to go by?).

 

I wish I was smarter 🤔

It did make me think that could you use a separate micro controller for the keyboard and sio data, and use the pico for the audio pokey part.

 

[Overange]

2 minutes ago, reifsnyderb said:

This got me wondering if POKEY could be replaced by stacking 2 Pico's as opposed to using one.  This whole magical FPGA thing that can supposedly replace anything but is completely "unavailable" (to put it very, very, very politely and diplomatically) annoys me.

We are thinking along the same lines  

[woj]

On 3/12/2024 at 11:30 PM, foft said:

Joyride runs fine on Pokeymax and EclaireXL. Not sure what is up with the MiSTer since its based on the same logic. Perhaps a drive emulator bug?

 

Edit: Double checking! Errr, pt2 won't load using RespeQt 5.3. OK, I need to check this out, I love this demo! I'll do some tests and provide a new firmware in the coming weeks,

 

Edit 2: Pt2 working on EclaireXL with the same pokey core (I'm testing a new core). Ho hum!

 

Edit 3: Haha, put my original pokey back into my 600XL and it fails at the same point! So its something with RespeQt and my 600XL + joyride. i.e. Not a problem with the pokeymax. Phew.

 

P.S. So EclaireXL to quote NorthridgeFix 'Better than factory' 🤩

 

Just had another session of trying to make Joyride work with MiSTer, used as vanilla settings as possible, including stock OS without HSIO patch (which I know could have been the problem), still nothing, pink loading screen with music on part / side 2. 

[reifsnyderb]

I've got a strong suspicion that if there is ever going to be a one-to-one POKEY replacement made available, somebody is going to have to re-develop it on an FPGA or use micro-controllers. 

 

😞😞😞😞😞😞😞😞

[+mytek]

2 weeks ago I placed an order for a Pokey chip from Best Electronics via email which has always worked well for me in the past. However this go around I got no reply.

 

Here's the email I sent...

 

I sure hope Brad is ok. Anyone else been in contact with him in the last couple weeks?

 

I didn't exceed the 3 item limit I've been hearing about, and I've never bad mouthed him. And he's always gotten back to me either the same day or the next. And even though I didn't have my customer number, this has never been an issue before. Very odd 🙄

[Jfcatari]

I had placed an order with no issues on Feb 14th.

He does not take pay pal anymore.  I call and provide a credit card number.

Edited March 25 by Jfcatari

[+mytek]

On 3/24/2024 at 8:02 PM, Jfcatari said:

I had placed an order with no issues on Feb 14th.

He does not take pay pal anymore.  I call and provide a credit card number.

Thanks for the update 👍

 

Although his website still states that he does take PayPal, and even if he doesn't I would have appreciated a response from him to that affect. I don't really need those parts anyway, and was just trying to verify whether I was now a member of the "No Soup For You" club concerning Pokeys

[Jfcatari]

22 minutes ago, mytek said:

Thanks for the update 👍

 

Although his website still states that he does take PayPal, and even if he doesn't I would have appreciated a response from him to that affect. I don't really need those parts anyway, and was just trying to verify whether i was now a member of the "No Soup For You" club concerning Pokeys

My goto place for a Pokey is a 7800 copy of Ballblazer

[+scorpio_ny]

2 hours ago, mytek said:

Thanks for the update 👍

 

Although his website still states that he does take PayPal, and even if he doesn't I would have appreciated a response from him to that affect. I don't really need those parts anyway, and was just trying to verify whether i was now a member of the "No Soup For You" club concerning Pokeys

I think Best is only selling one Pokey chip per person for life. If you already ordered one from him, he will not sell you another.

 

1 hour ago, Jfcatari said:

My goto place for a Pokey is a 7800 copy of Ballblazer

I heard that some of the Pokey chips in the carts may have flaws in them. Atari had some chip that were not good enough to use in the computers (issues with keyboard or other I/O), but good enough to use just for music only in the carts.

[Beeblebrox]

1 hour ago, scorpio_ny said:

heard that some of the Pokey chips in the carts may have flaws in them. Atari had some chip that were not good enough to use in the computers (issues with keyboard or other I/O), but good enough to use just for music only in the

Not surprised. I've had failing pokey chips which cannot be used as a main chip in an A8, but as a secondary pokey in a stereo upgrade it will work fine as the sound functionality is fine. I never chuck any of my pokeys away for that reason, and my lil stash of pokey chips hopefully means most of my machines will have spares where it's inevitably needed. 

 

 

 

 

[Jfcatari]

My luck has been good using the carts as a source.  I have not found one that did not work in an 8 bit.

Keeping my fingers crossed. I do have another I have to free from its prison cell.

[ijor]

On 3/24/2024 at 1:50 PM, reifsnyderb said:

I've got a strong suspicion that if there is ever going to be a one-to-one POKEY replacement made available, somebody is going to have to re-develop it on an FPGA or use micro-controllers. 

 

😞😞😞😞😞😞😞😞

I'm not sure I understand why you are saying this. Are you saying that a new POKEY core should be developed because you think the Joyride's issue is PokeyMax core fault? I you read what @foft said, it seems the issue is not related to PokeyMax at all.

[ijor]

On 3/12/2024 at 7:07 PM, foft said:

The lack of 5v tolerance on FPGAs is annoying and needing a voltage regulator for 3.3v. That adds more chips. Interestingly the cpu based ones for c64 do seem to accept 5v, at least I see no level shifters on the backsid.

Yes, most modern MCUs have 5V tolerant inputs (with some limitations). This alone by itself should reduce costs significantly. Add to this that Chinese MCUs (Artery AT32) have rock bottom prices. I suspect that Pokey might require a faster MCU than SID, though.

 

Quote

I tried the Latest 5.4 release and that failed too. So I checked it with a 1050 and pokeymax - that combination works. Might be that the app has a timing bug rather than a respeqt issue though.

 

If it works correctly with real hardware, then it is still a RespeQt issue. Not necessarily a bug in the strict sense though. If the software requires cycle exact timing for some reason, RespeQt might not be able to deliver, due to the host limitations.

Edited March 26 by ijor

[ijor]

Double post, sorry. Please delete.

Edited March 26 by ijor

[reifsnyderb]

1 hour ago, ijor said:

I'm not sure I understand why you are saying this. Are you saying that a new POKEY core should be developed because you think the Joyride's issue is PokeyMax core fault? I you read what @foft said, it seems the issue is not related to PokeyMax at all.

This thread was never really about PokeyMax at all.  That being said, PokeyMax isn't a one-to-one replacement as it has extras. 

 

Before responding, I just checked to see if I could get a PokeyMax and it doesn't appear to be available.  (I've checked availability before and didn't see anything, either.)  So, since  a PokeyMax isn't available it really isn't even an option and is therefore irrelevant. 

 

The core of what I am saying is that if there isn't a one-to-one Pokey replacement available that one option is to re-develop the Pokey using a technology that is available.

 

 

 

[+scorpio_ny]

1 hour ago, reifsnyderb said:

Before responding, I just checked to see if I could get a PokeyMax and it doesn't appear to be available.  (I've checked availability before and didn't see anything, either.)  So, since  a PokeyMax isn't available it really isn't even an option and is therefore irrelevant. 

 

Hi @reifsnyderb,

 

Did you reach out to @Duddie for Pokeymax availability? Last time we communicated, he had Quad Pokeymax on hand.

 

Edited March 26 by scorpio_ny

[reifsnyderb]

5 minutes ago, scorpio_ny said:

Hi @reifsnyderb,

 

Did you reach out to @Duddie for Pokeymax availability? Last time we communicated, he had Quad Pokeymax on hand.

 

I did not.  No.  I did check a few web sites and they are all out of stock. 

 

Quite frankly, I don't need a Pokey chip.  The OP asked if you could get just a one-for-one Pokey chip replacement.  You can't.  I am a strong supporter of there being one-for-one replacements for all of the Atari LSI chips.  Without this, the only future for Atari 8-bits is emulation.  So, that is why I am supporting the idea of somebody, who has the technology already developed, to release a one-for-one replacement for a Pokey chip. 

 

I do think the lack of such a one-for-one replacement, for a Pokey chip, is an opportunity for somebody to develop one.  But why should somebody else have to re-develop that which has already been developed at least twice?  

[+scorpio_ny]

23 minutes ago, reifsnyderb said:

I did not.  No.  I did check a few web sites and they are all out of stock. 

 

Quite frankly, I don't need a Pokey chip.  The OP asked if you could get just a one-for-one Pokey chip replacement.  You can't.  I am a strong supporter of there being one-for-one replacements for all of the Atari LSI chips.  Without this, the only future for Atari 8-bits is emulation.  So, that is why I am supporting the idea of somebody, who has the technology already developed, to release a one-for-one replacement for a Pokey chip. 
 

As an Atari 8bit enthusiast, I am in favor for one for one replacements that are lower cost to extend the life of the current Atari computers and allow the building of new computers. As part of the hobby, I like  repairing them and building them too.
 

23 minutes ago, reifsnyderb said:

I do think the lack of such a one-for-one replacement, for a Pokey chip, is an opportunity for somebody to develop one.  But why should somebody else have to re-develop that which has already been developed at least twice?  

I think the hurdle is not a technological one, but economical. It can be done but, does it make sense from a business standpoint for niche market? Maybe using something less expensive than FPGA’s as the base platform to build these replacements is the answer.
 

 

Edited March 26 by scorpio_ny

[woj]

3 hours ago, ijor said:

I'm not sure I understand why you are saying this. Are you saying that a new POKEY core should be developed because you think the Joyride's issue is PokeyMax core fault? I you read what @foft said, it seems the issue is not related to PokeyMax at all.

 

I played around a bit more with this, first I updated the MiSTer core just to make sure everything is new. Still no joy(ride)  It does run fine with Altirra, and with Atari800 (Linux version). I also looked at the core sources, it seems that this part (Pokey I mean) is identical between MiSTer/EclaireXL/MiST. Adding to this that Atari800 is probably not more timing precise than the FPGA cores, this makes me think the issue is indeed somewhere else. The next candidate is the drive simulator, especially that now we know that RespecQT exhibited a problem. To narrow things down, it would be good to know:

 

- if real Pokey and the said RespecQT version also cause problems? (If I find time I will check it on my 130XE just out of curiosity)

- is PokeyMax having the exact same VHDL code as MiSTer/MiST/EclaireXL?

 

For some reason I made it a goal to get to the bottom of this, I think I need to see a shrink...

 

[foft]

Well I said I’m going to open the design again once the stocks are run down.

 

I’m designing a 2 layer version of v3 relocating the header inside. Once I have that anyone can order pcbs and make one. It will also fix the keyboard timing issues.

 

Thing is it’s quite hard to solder, since small smd parts are needed.

[woj]

Just now, foft said:

Thing is it’s quite hard to solder, since small smd parts are needed.

 

Reflow plate? I made one and was quite successful making my own small (but much simpler) PCBs  

[foft]

16 minutes ago, woj said:

 

I played around a bit more with this, first I updated the MiSTer core just to make sure everything is new. Still no joy(ride)  It does run fine with Altirra, and with Atari800 (Linux version). I also looked at the core sources, it seems that this part (Pokey I mean) is identical between MiSTer/EclaireXL/MiST. Adding to this that Atari800 is probably not more timing precise than the FPGA cores, this makes me think the issue is indeed somewhere else. The next candidate is the drive simulator, especially that now we know that RespecQT exhibited a problem. To narrow things down, it would be good to know:

 

- if real Pokey and the said RespecQT version also cause problems? (If I find time I will check it on my 130XE just out of curiosity)

- is PokeyMax having the exact same VHDL code as MiSTer/MiST/EclaireXL?

 

For some reason I made it a goal to get to the bottom of this, I think I need to see a shrink...

 

Happy to help. Should we make a new thread for this though? 

 

I checked a real pokey too. The mister one was forked off slightly older code and ported by Alexey. There are clearly some drive emulator changes to plug it into the mister framework (maybe compare vs http://www.64kib.com/atarixlfpga_svn/trunk/atari_800xl/firmware_eclairexl/atari_drive_emulator.c) I've not reviewed exactly what he did.

Edited March 26 by foft

[reifsnyderb]

21 minutes ago, foft said:

Well I said I’m going to open the design again once the stocks are run down.

 

I’m designing a 2 layer version of v3 relocating the header inside. Once I have that anyone can order pcbs and make one. It will also fix the keyboard timing issues.

 

Thing is it’s quite hard to solder, since small smd parts are needed.

Good to hear!  I am looking forward to seeing this!    🙂

 

Small SMD parts can be overcome.