Atari FPGA community edition

[darwinmac]

For me, two things would be almost essential in a new machine:

1. Will the paddles work directly from the DB-9 port? On the MiST core (that you originally wrote), I have to plug in my 2600-daptor into a USB port in order to use my paddles. I think that is a limitation of the MiST hardware. I just want to make sure it would not be a limitation of the new machine.

2. Will there be the ability to disable the custom hi-res mode? I have run into a few games (the latest being Cyborg Warriors) that do not like the mode. I appreciated the new option that was added recently to the MiST core to disable the high-res mode. That appears to improve compatibility.

 

Overall, I have been very happy with the MiST core. However, if this new version was affordable, it would be very tempting for me. I appreciate being able to switch between NTSC and PAL easily. Except for a dual pokey, I do not see the need for much built-in except for an SD slot to load XEX and CAR images. If the SIO matches the original machine, I can plug in my existing Fujinet rather than having it built into the FPGA.

 

Bob C

[foft]

Yes paddles work fine on the DB9, that is a mist hardware limitation.

 

I’m aware about a couple of games misusing the reserved bits in DMACTL. Yes I should probably add a way to disable the extension bits like slingshot did on the mist.

[foft]

22 hours ago, reifsnyderb said:

So, anyhow, rant mode off.  I am hoping somebody will please release a one-for-one Pokey chip replacement that uses an FPGA, micro-controllers, or even a spare improbability drive.

Did you this effort using @ijor’s decap schematic? https://forums.arcade-museum.com/threads/lets-design-some-pokey-replacements.515774/

[+mytek]

19 hours ago, Larry said:

Ability to attach a real Atari keyboard.  If you've typed on a real Atari for 40+ years, your fingers *know* where all those special keys are.

I've heard this before, but it always puzzles me how people made the transition to a PC type keyboard from the Atari when they use a PC or a MAC. Personally I find it much easier to run a TK-II on all my Atari systems so that there is no readjustment for me to make when switching back and forth between retro and modern systems. And I don't know about you, but I use a PC much more often than an Atari, so for me switching over to an Atari keyboard and readjusting my brain hurts.

 

But I know many don't like the remapping that comes with a modern keyboard when using it on the Atari, and for those I also supported an A8 mode that mapped an ISO keyboard as closely as possible to the Atari keyboard. Then it's just a matter of having custom keycaps made, which are available. Perhaps something like this could be done on this new FPGA based system as well.

 

EDIT: Don't pay any attention to the Function key mapping, that was based an older TK-II scheme, and has since been changed so that the Help, Console, and reset keys better match with an AKI keyboard mapping.

[foft]

@ScreamingAtTheRadio, not sure if you saw this thread, but building a new design into a new case with your keyboard is winning!

[Teapot]

4 hours ago, mytek said:

And I don't know about you, but I use a PC much more often than an Atari, so for me switching over to an Atari keyboard and readjusting my brain hurts.

I only pulled my Ataris back out last year after about 30. And my hands just know how to type on that keyboard. It's so different it's like an alternate sense memory. I had way more trouble when I used Windows at work and NeXT/Mac at home.

[ScreamingAtTheRadio]

Funny that I'd learn about this thread while I'm in FreeCAD working on my XE case replacement... So if the integrated keyboard design comes on top, I'll happily design a special keyboard for it with people's wishlist in mind. I'm thinking navigation cluster on the bottom right, for example.

[Matej]

I would love to have all modern Atari XE/XL features on one board (something as Commander X16):

 

Name can be 816XE

 

mITX or mATX

2x 9" cannon joystick (maybe 6button sega) - multijoy cable slitter (4x 8x players)

2x usb (aki keyboard and amiga/st mouse adapter)

build in sddrive (supporting big sd cards 32gb, 256gb)

Karin IDE - fast ide port (very fast old pc hdd)

HDMI video out

2x golden cinch rca audio out (like amiga)

real CPU WDC 65c816 / 14mhz or 20mhz mode

16mb system ram + 32mb fpga (video/audio)

eci+cartridge (compatible with XE)

SIO port on back

1x FAN controller rgb (programable) for 65c816 cooling

1x pci size port (BUS) for future upgrades

small pci-e size port (FUJINET) like upgrade

 

Fpga part:

Vbxe + PokeyMAX (quadpokey 4x pokey, covox/samples with dma, ay/ym for playing Atari ST songs, maybe also TIA or fm atari arcade ym2151)

Quality DAC for audio out from FPGA

 

Website + Forum + Discord community like Commander X16 

 

When m-ITX also port for internal keyboard(for 3d printed case) with jumper internal or pc usb.

Edited March 30 by Matej

[ascrnet]

For me the main thing multi standard NTSC and PAL, also that it works correctly with ATARI peripherals and all the software of yesteryear. 😅

[ijor]

On 3/28/2024 at 12:07 PM, foft said:

DVI video is basically HDMI video (HDMI just has more features that we do not need)

DVI + audio is DVI with HDMI compatible data islands (how HDMI transmits audio)

Often done via an HDMI socket.

Pretty please, do include a direct HDMI connector. Yes, there are DVI adapters and audio injectors, but, obviously, a direct HDMI connector is much better. It is not exact that an HDMI license is required, this has been covered already by several experts. But please, don't cheap out with the HDMI (or DVI) hardware as you did on the Eclaire Use a real HDMI transmitter chip! That's the only thing I really disliked about the Eclaire.

 

I would also recommend including a discrete ARM MCU. They are extremely cheap nowadays and can provide several benefits over a softcore implemented at the FPGA.

 

In return, time permitting, I will contribute a VBXE compatible core

 

In anycase, I think this is a wonderful initiative. Lets us know if you need some funding.

Edited April 2 by ijor

[cathrynm]

I just did a quick google. I'm not an expert on this, but it's just what comes up first. HDMI isn't free to use.

https://www.symmetryelectronics.com/blog/what-are-the-licensing-costs-associated-with-hdmi/
 

Quote

HDMI specification is not an open standard; you need to be licensed by HDMI LLC in order to implement HDMI in any product or component. Companies who are licensed by HDMI LLC are known as HDMI Adopters.      

 

Quote

• High-volume (more than 10,000 units) HDMI Adopter Agreement - $10k/year. 
• Low-volume (10,000 units or less) HDMI Adopter Agreement - $5k/year + flat $1/unit administration fee. 

 

[ijor]

1 hour ago, cathrynm said:

I just did a quick google. I'm not an expert on this, but it's just what comes up first. HDMI isn't free to use.

Hi @cathrynm. If you are not an expert, performing a quick googling and just posting the first thing it comes, might not be a very good idea. Many times what Google brings is wrong, inaccurate, misleading, or only partially true. And if you are not an expert, you cannot tell, and you might just be spreading wrong, or at least inaccurate, information.

 

Sorry if I am being a bit too harsh, but I suggest you perform a little bit more research before claiming I am wrong and "HDMI isn't free to use".

Edited April 2 by ijor

[foft]

Hi @ijor.

 

Using a single video chip that handles rgb digital +hv to scaled 3 x analog + hdmi would be great and simply the core a lot. Do you know any good ones that are available with data sheets?

 

I was planning on an hdmi socket since it is just a socket. I don’t want any legal issues or expensive licences and do not know the rules myself. I presumed it is mostly about claiming hdmi compliance and putting the logo in the box etc.

 

Also yes I’m keen to remove the zpu from the core and use a standalone mcu - for drive emulation, osd for settings, usb and fpga configuration etc. If the video chip could handle the overlay that would be best then I don’t need to feed video into the core!

[foft]

13 hours ago, ascrnet said:

For me the main thing multi standard NTSC and PAL, also that it works correctly with ATARI peripherals and all the software of yesteryear. 😅

PAL/NTSC is something I’m thinking of a physical switch for. Perhaps these as physical:

pal/ntsc

800/800xl

base/extended ram

os select

CPU turbo

drive turbo

Then profile number for other settings

Edited April 2 by foft

[foft]

On 3/30/2024 at 1:10 AM, ScreamingAtTheRadio said:

Funny that I'd learn about this thread while I'm in FreeCAD working on my XE case replacement... So if the integrated keyboard design comes on top, I'll happily design a special keyboard for it with people's wishlist in mind. I'm thinking navigation cluster on the bottom right, for example.

I think using an 800XL compatible keyboard makes sense. Then we can make a case that is only just a little bigger with holes for required ports. Perhaps just long enough for a vertical cart. Like a less deep 600XL.

[frogstar_robot]

Chiming in to agree that core functionality and compatibility is king.  Enhancements like VBXE, dual POKEY, 65816, etc can be just that.   They can be enhancements done down the road with the core functionality made as good as it can be.  Since this is be an open core, modders can go nuts later.   I also like the idea of drop in replacements for the Atari ASICS like POKEY.  Again, compatibility is king.  An enhanced POKEY with stereo and maybe even SID!! thrown in does little good if it refuses to correctly talk to the storage device I'm trying to load a game from.  This would be a storage device that works fine with real hardware regardless of how "correct" it's design is.

 

I've been following the the 400 Mini threads and I've noticed that the bulk of complaints with that are in the compatibility department.  I'm not running it down! And I'll think it'll get better but the great things it brings to the table like state saves and rewinding aren't helpful if the thing you wanted most to run......just won't.  True it's apples and oranges.  One is an emulation box and the other is a re-implementation of hardware.  But as an end user, I may have the same complaint:  my programs won't necessarily run.

[foft]

10 minutes ago, frogstar_robot said:

This would be a storage device that works fine with real hardware regardless of how "correct" it's design is.

For this we need testers, ideally people who can use a scope or logic analyser. Since it’s easy enough to test what I have but hard to test what I don’t have.

[frogstar_robot]

10 minutes ago, foft said:

For this we need testers, ideally people who can use a scope or logic analyser. Since it’s easy enough to test what I have but hard to test what I don’t have.

 

For sure!  Keeping the functionality to a core minimum at least minimizes the testing surface.  I suspect a POKEY that doesn't try to be more than a straight re-implementation is probably easier to debug than an all singing all dancing device that's had every passing fancy crammed into it like stereo or SID or an FM synth..........

 

Not that anything is easy about this which is the point.

[ijor]

7 hours ago, foft said:

Using a single video chip that handles rgb digital +hv to scaled 3 x analog + hdmi would be great and simply the core a lot. Do you know any good ones that are available with data sheets?

 

Sorry, no. I was talking about a "simple" HDMI/DVI transmitter chip.

 

Quote

Also yes I’m keen to remove the zpu from the core and use a standalone mcu - for drive emulation, osd for settings, usb and fpga configuration etc. If the video chip could handle the overlay that would be best then I don’t need to feed video into the core!

 

Wouldn't such a video chip would be overkill? Overlying the OSD output at the core is not very complicated. You can grab MiST/MiSTer implementation if you don't want to code it from scratch. You can also grab the excellent full fledged MiSTer scaler by Grabulosaure.

 

Edited April 2 by ijor

[Noelio]

I don't want to add feature creep or anything but if we are early in the idea phase...

 

If a Mini ITX Style is chosen, a 5 1/4 bay PCB connected via an internal ribbon cable (or 2) & a 3d printable breakout box design would be excellent for cartridge, audio, headphone & controller ports. Somewhat along the lines of the old Creative Labs Audigy line. A 3d printable i/o shield would be rich as well. I don't know if a cable would mess with cartridge access times, however. A simple array of headers would allow the user to explore those options I guess.

 

If this is going in a case, let's actually close the case, once assembled, and have everything accessible via the I/O shield and 5 1/4" bays so some of us can finally clean our desks.

 

[frogstar_robot]

23 hours ago, foft said:

For this we need testers, ideally people who can use a scope or logic analyser. Since it’s easy enough to test what I have but hard to test what I don’t have.

Sorry about the way that came off.  Perfect compatibility is itself idle wishlisting. 

[ascrnet]

On 3/28/2024 at 9:02 AM, foft said:

Considering a new FPGA based Atari design. Would appreciate some input to help with the design please.

 

Please post pictures of paper designs of how you want the board to be laid out. e.g. SIO here, video here etc.

 

For me the main thing is the front and the top for the cartridge.

Now I explain my concept, 2 for joystick or any other device, 2 usb for whatever you want for example keyboard, mouse, etc.. a led for on or off and another led to indicate if you are reading or writing something by the SIO port.

 

the top part for the XEGS type cartridge.

 

The back for the SIO connector, settings buttons, SD reader, on/off button, hdmi port, 3.5 jack for video and audio.

 

I find that to be the most important and basic. 😅

 

[+DjayBee]

1 hour ago, ascrnet said:

I find that to be the most important and basic. 😅

You forgot joysticks 3 and 4.

[HiassofT]

17 minutes ago, DjayBee said:

You forgot joysticks 3 and 4.

And PBI on the back 🙂

 

so long,

 

Hias

[ascrnet]

2 hours ago, DjayBee said:

You forgot joysticks 3 and 4.

tell me the truth, do you currently use it? there are few 4 player games so I don't find it that relevant. 😅

 

2 hours ago, HiassofT said:

And PBI on the back 🙂

maybe to the left or right side but since it will have memory expansion I don't see it as relevant. 😅

 

What I forgot was the RESET button very important for the multi cartridges. thinking a little more and if we place the START, SELECT, OPTION and RESET buttons as the XEGS since 80% of the people use it to play so you do not need to have connected a keyboard and if you go to program place a usb keyboard.