How long until the FPGA fad runs out?

[donjn]

7 minutes ago, Giles N said:

…and is there any FPGAs here to make a clear-cut comparison …?

As to competiton of performance, do we have possibilities to do side by side comparisons?

Which one is best as of today?

That's the thing; there really aren't many FPGAs, period. Mister FPGA handles almost all devices and is quite impressive but will run you $500. I know there is an Atari 800 XL FPGA coming out soon and there is also Gideon who builds the Ultimate 64 Elite  (c64) FPGA (WHICH IS AMAZING) but after covid he is having issues with parts. That's it. So we are usually stuck with the real thing (a lot of us dont have the room for a CRT) or emulation. Or we can now have worse emulation for $100 with these replicas that have emulators inside them.

 

Edited March 28 by donjn

[zzip]

21 minutes ago, donjn said:

Both can be true, there are some emulators that are total crap as well, and have become so bloated over time that they produce lag that is worse than when they first came out. Vice 64 is a good example. The author said himself that it was never and still isn't being used for gaming. Yet, the C64 Mini and Maxi used it for their Minis and it is awful.

Yeah most free emulators were community projects,   some where abandoned in their infancy, some get infrequent updates, others have had 30 years of continuous development.   So quality is all over the place.   Fortunately most of the old systems I care about have at least one high-quality emulator available for it.

 

My understanding is that not all FPGA cores are hardware-perfect either being community developed as well, so it isn't always going to deliver better results. 

[Giles N]

6 minutes ago, donjn said:

but after covid he is having issues with parts.

…and if these types of parts become more mass-produced…?

 

Let’s say 5 different companies will be in need of such parts the coming 10 years, wouldn’t there be a likeliness someone begins a bigger production in order to supply these FPGA-system makers?

Edited March 28 by Giles N

[donjn]

3 minutes ago, zzip said:

Yeah most free emulators were community projects,   some where abandoned in their infancy, some get infrequent updates, others have had 30 years of continuous development.   So quality is all over the place.   Fortunately most of the old systems I care about have at least one high-quality emulator available for it.

 

My understanding is that not all FPGA cores are hardware-perfect either being community developed as well, so it isn't always going to deliver better results. 

If you like C64 try Denise 64. It is miles ahead of Vice for gaming and it has "read ahead" which I put on 3. It basically makes reaction times almost identical to playing original hardware on a CRT.

I've been dying for a lag-free option for Atari 8-bit, which i why I am looking forward to the Atari 8-bit FPGA: https://revive-machines.com/index-en.html

 

Edited March 28 by donjn

[donjn]

2 minutes ago, Giles N said:

…and if these types of parts become more mass-produced…?

 

Let’s say 5 different companies will be in need of such parts the coming 10 years, wouldn’t there beca likeliness someone begins a bigger production in order to supply these FPGA systems…?

You would think so but from my understanding these parts ARE in demand. The crucial chip he needs IS in mass production, just not enough are made for demand. Its a supply issue, demand is more than there already. This chip is used in many different everyday computers and phones I believe, so an increase in FPGA popularity isnt going to make things better, too much of a niche.

[zzip]

1 minute ago, donjn said:

If you like C64 try Denise 64

I've tried it a few times, and always ended up deleting it.   It didn't perform well for me,  certainly worse than vice.   Are there tweaks for it?

[Giles N]

1 hour ago, JPF997 said:

playing on my Super Console X4 Plus from Kinhank that has over a 120k built in games, literally any game from any console before the Dreamcast runs flawlessly on this device and I only payed 70 bucks for it on AliExpress

… not saying someone out there should never buy one, open it and investigate its build and software… may learn something… learning isn’t illegal

 

 

Edited March 28 by Giles N

[donjn]

5 minutes ago, zzip said:

I've tried it a few times, and always ended up deleting it.   It didn't perform well for me,  certainly worse than vice.   Are there tweaks for it?

This is a good example of why it's such a moving target.
I think Denise is great because whats most important to me is input lag.

It does not work for you because you are having other issues, maybe sound or accuracy.

Everyone is different, which is why the genesis of this thread puzzles me.

Some of us have higher standards and prefer the real thing or FPGA, some of us don't.

There is no right answer, do what makes you happy.

All of it, first world problems BTW lol.

 

[Giles N]

7 minutes ago, donjn said:

Its a supply issue, demand is more than there already.

Then some company can easily and with security make much more of it, almost guaranteed to make money. ‘ChipSuppliers Inc. - we Chip where others slip’ 

[Giles N]

5 minutes ago, donjn said:

All of it, first world problems BTW lol.

Saw a Lynx with many games on eBay sold to benefit charity (wellknown)

Edited March 28 by Giles N

[Zoyous]

24 minutes ago, remowilliams said:

Why do people keep responding to these endless crap 'hot take' topic posts...

Agreed, this dude's topics read like focus group tests for shitty Youtube videos. The formula is: Present a polarizing issue in a way that insults a community in order to get them to respond in order to debunk the fallacious/incendiary premise.

[Giles N]

1 minute ago, Zoyous said:

Present a polarizing issue in a way that insults a community in order to get them to respond in order to debunk the fallacious/incendiary premise.

If this trend had had a clearly defined win-or-lose target, it could make for new type of game. 
 

Quarrelum:Recharged

[Giles N]

9 minutes ago, Giles N said:

14 minutes ago, Zoyous said:

Present a polarizing issue in a way that insults a community in order to get them to respond in order to debunk the fallacious/incendiary premise.

If this trend had had a clearly defined win-or-lose target, it could make for new type of game. 
 

Quarrelum:Recharged

Tempest 8-Billion or quite simply Insta-Berzerk would also work as good titles.

 

- - -

 

Not sure, however, that any inflamatory intent really went on here. 
May be just the way people communicate after skipping around from digital platform to digital platform… having strong opinions.

 

We can use it to discuss technical details if we really want to show maturity.

 

What is the average lag-time on the worst vs best emulators?

 

If we go by 1) stating system used and 2) measure it in nanoseconds?

 

Anyone?

Edited March 28 by Giles N

[zzip]

9 minutes ago, donjn said:

This is a good example of why it's such a moving target.
I think Denise is great because whats most important to me is input lag.

I don't exactly remember what the issue was with Denise, but I think it just ran poorly.   Maybe I should boot it up again and see.  

I update my emulator setup every year during the snowy months and always try out new emulators that come along and add them if they are decent.

 

Vice does annoy me at times, and I'd love a good alternative but I've yet to find one.

 

Part of the issue with Denise is there's very little documentation, and no real community to help.   But I feel like that's the way many of these newer projects have been heading unfortunately.

[eightbit]

48 minutes ago, remowilliams said:

Why do people keep responding to these endless crap 'hot take' topic posts...

 

I guess it's just a very very slow day at work

 

[Razzie.P]

2 hours ago, JPF997 said:

I'm currently playing on my Super Console X4 Plus from Kinhank that has over a 120k built in games, literally any game from any console before the Dreamcast runs flawlessly on this device and I only payed 70 bucks for it on AliExpress ( it even came with two knockoff PS2 controllers which are actually pretty good), this idea that only high end computers can emulate flawlessly is an old myth that needs to die off.

 

2 hours ago, JPF997 said:

We're getting to the point that even low powered emulation devices can run anything up to the Dreamcast flawlessly, just like I explained in my other post just before this one, the need for an FPGA for high quality emulation is greatly diminishing with each and every passing year, another reason why I think this fad ( by fad I  really mean obsession that certain groups within the retro gaming community have with these things  ) is going to die off soon .

If I buy this thing and find flaws, I'm gonna be like JPF997!!!!!

 

[Razzie.P]

1 hour ago, remowilliams said:

Why do people keep responding to these endless crap 'hot take' topic posts...

On behalf of the OP -- thank you for responding. 

[+Stephen]

1 hour ago, remowilliams said:

Why do people keep responding to these endless crap 'hot take' topic posts...

[r_chase]

6 minutes ago, Stephen said:

There is an xkcd for anything nerdy and whatnot. Love it.

imo I think FPGA is not just a fad, because NES-on-a-chip could be considered a form of FPGA. NoaC is probably the cheapest form of it too. It's fitting an entire game system on to a microchip iirc. I agree that FPGA is expensive and can only be just as good as software emulation. I'd be okay with software emulation of the Dreamcast anyway.

[Lost Monkey]

2 hours ago, remowilliams said:

Why do people keep responding to these endless crap 'hot take' topic posts...

It is the Joe Roganification of AA...

Edited March 28 by Lost Monkey

[+batari]

5 hours ago, donjn said:

It wont run out and it shouldn't.

FPGA technically is not emulation.

FPGA is emulation. It's hardware emulation (emulation of the lower-level signals and states of hardware), as opposed to software emulation (reproducing the higher-level behavior of the hardware).

 

Thing is, FPGAs aren't necessarily representing every single hardware state or transition. There are almost certainly some optimizations, generalizations and compromises. FPGAs are typically not perfect replacements for retro hardware. They are not even necessarily more accurate than pure hardware emulation, either. Pure software emulation has gotten very good. I think for most people, the fact that it's gotten hard to tell the difference anymore is enough.

 

Also, the line between software and hardware emulation is blurry. Microcontrollers are getting faster, and they are also more and more able to also do hardware emulation, particularly of older systems, meaning they are becoming more and more capable of working with hardware signals in real time just like real hardware and they do it for a much lower price than FPGAs.

 

Hardware emulation from microcontrollers is important distinction from pure software emulation that the FPGA crowd doesn't seem to appreciate, or in some cases, even want to acknowledge, but it is happening and has been for some time, and it will only get better. As the lines blur more and more, I think FPGAs will become less important in retrogaming as they have always been more costly than micros, and I doubt that will ever change.

[+bent_pin]

5 hours ago, eightbit said:

I don't expect FPGA to be pricey forever.

This is a valid point. There is a reconfigurable transistor coming to the market that no longer uses doped regions and can switch between PNP and NPN on the fly. This will dramatically lower the cost of FPGAs, increase the circuit density, and add on the fly reconfiguration. 

 

In general though, this thread is just a mountain out of a molehill. Most gamers don't care if it's FPGA, they just care about playing their game and having it work correctly. The issue is that those who are pro FPGA are very vocal about it.

[MrBeefy]

I think some of the scoffing at the 2600+ and its price point is that you aren't playing the carts. It's a glorified AtGames product that plays roms, and a way to get people to buy reproduction carts that are getting dumped.

 

They could just as easily remove that cart port, lower cost, and just sell roms at a discounted price to run on the device. However, doing that means you aren't buying Pong for the 100th time at a $40 price tag.

 

I don't think FPGA is a fad. If my Atari 2600 and 7800 die I'm not getting a 2600+. I will just emulate at that point. I don't need the illusion or inconvenience of plugging in a cart to enjoy the game.

[donjn]

9 minutes ago, MrBeefy said:

I think some of the scoffing at the 2600+ and its price point is that you aren't playing the carts. It's a glorified AtGames product that plays roms, and a way to get people to buy reproduction carts that are getting dumped.

 

They could just as easily remove that cart port, lower cost, and just sell roms at a discounted price to run on the device. However, doing that means you aren't buying Pong for the 100th time at a $40 price tag.

 

I don't think FPGA is a fad. If my Atari 2600 and 7800 die I'm not getting a 2600+. I will just emulate at that point. I don't need the illusion or inconvenience of plugging in a cart to enjoy the game.

I always think of an idea for an interesting article called:

"Atari is trying to get you to buy Asteroids 5 times in your life."

 

Whats going on at Atari is not unlike Bethesda trying to get you to purchase Skyrim 3 times.

[Razzie.P]

4 hours ago, eightbit said:

 

I guess it's just a very very slow day at work

 

Yeah, it really was.  😁   Plus, Atari hasn't sued anyone since lunch, so we got bored with nothing to talk about.