How long until the FPGA fad runs out?

[John G]

A bit late to this , but I am just shocked that people just want to use hardware, when there's sub-adequate software emulation out there. I often look at my 1981 2600 VCS with disgust, and my 1984 600XL with disdain, and think why couldn't you have just been a software emulator by Atari. /s

 

At any rate, as an owner of OEM hardware, software emulation, and Mist FPGA, then hardware trumps software emulation for accuracy, that is just a fact, and not a Trump fact.

 

Do what you like, best just leave others to get on with what they like. (Peace & Love) 

[r_chase]

I feel like we should acknowledge that it's not going away any time soon. Mostly because it's getting cheaper to make now.

[Albert]

1 hour ago, John G said:

that is just a fact, and not a Trump fact.

Please keep politics off AtariAge, thank you.  Not sure why you felt it necessary to add that to your post.

 

 ..Al

[Maztr_0n]

i dont think its a FAD, but i do think a lot of people overreact over how "amazing" it is and how "emulation stinkyyyyy", yes it is a very exciting technology, yes i think it does have a future in this space and maybe Atari should look into it. But theres not any reason to throw decent software emulation under the bus, sure i think the 2600+ is a bit expensive but Software Emulation is way better than it was like a decade ago, so as time moves on, stuff like the 2600+ and the 400 mini could keep lowering in price because for the most part, especially for the former, its mainly aimed at people like my grandpa or more relatably people around my dad's age who liked atari games back in the day, they're likely just gonna play a bit of the 10 in 1 carts, the VERY VERY common stuff like the old 2600 Pac-Man, classic berzerk, pitfall, original donkey kong and a few of the VERY OLD sports titles, and at the current level of FPGA pricing, i dont think those guys will shell out 300$ or whatever for some FPGA Atari console for that stuff, also FPGA IS a form of emulation, nothing will ever really be 100% accurate unless somehow atari starts manufacturing MOS 6507s or whatever, it would be very close but honestly i would much prefer if Atari saved the FPGA stuff for something worth it, something with all the bells and all the whistles and all the support you could ever want, but the 2600+ is fine as is.

[donjn]

I just took the plunge and purchased a Mister FPGA pre-built for $500.
I use my Atari VCS classic joystick with it, pure gaming bliss.

 

If I wanted a "real" setup, and for it to do what I want I would have spent:

 

$200 on an Atari 800XL
$100 on an Atari Ultimate Cartridge

$100 on a Commodore 64 computer
$200 for an Ultimate C64 device from Gideon
$200 for an Atari 2600 with AV mod
$300 for a decent CRT monitor
$1,100 total and counting

 

• All of these 40-year-old parts could fail at any moment.
• I don’t solder, it’s just not my thing
• The CRT takes up too much space in my area.
• I am very sensitive to input lag, so I can notice most emulators, except Stella.
  I have a high end 1ms gaming LCD monitor calibrated perfect for lag.
• The Mister FPGA has so many enjoyable things like the scanlines and filters which look amazing.
• I am using this keyboard which looks and feels like an Atari or C64 with a USB splitter to switch off between my PC or Mister

The key in all of this?

 

Find exactly what BOTHERS you and do the thing that prevents that.
Don't find what you like; find what you dislike and remove that from the equation.

 

 

Edited May 28 by donjn

[M-S]

So you really felt the need to bump this thread just to justify your purchase?

1 hour ago, donjn said:

If I wanted a "real" setup, and for it to do what I want I would have spent:

 

$200 on an Atari 800XL
$100 on an Atari Ultimate Cartridge

$100 on a Commodore 64 computer
$200 for an Ultimate C64 device from Gideon
$200 for an Atari 2600 with AV mod
$300 for a decent CRT monitor
$1,100 total and counting

I'm not sure about  the C64 stuff, but there's no way that an AV-modded 2600 would cost $200 and a CRT monitor $300. You either looked at some scalpers' price or exagerated them, and even if they cost that much, it's a single device, an emulation box, against multiple legacy devices and accessories with collectible value. It doesn't replace them and never will, these cores aren't more accurate than software emulation and don't play all games, it's like comparing a swiss knife against a complete toolbox.

If you like the MiSTeR more, good for you, in a few months it's going to cost like $100 dollars, perhaps even I could buy one, but it's not going to be a replacement for anything.

[The Dubious One]

I haven't read this whole thread yet, but I think there's a place for both (FPGA and emulation).  Thanks to my older brother Dave (R.I.P.), I've been into the emulation scene since the late 90's (MAME), and always thought it was great!  Over the past year or so I learned about FPGA and in a perfect world think all "retro" device ideally would be using that technology (when possible).  That said, I understand that most people (the masses) aren't as into this stuff as us folks are and most likely wouldn't be in on spending so much for something they consider as frivolous.  I do wish manufacturers would offer a "Pro Line" or something like that, that was geared more toward enthusiasts using FPGA technology.  I know if I could get a brand new in the box Atari 2600, Intellivision, or Colecovision using FPGA I would spend whatever it costs (within reason) to get my hands on them.

Edited May 29 by The Dubious One

[SegaSnatcher]

Not a fad, FPGA has legit applications for gaming devices. FPGA isn't just limited to new consoles.  Flashcarts, optical drive emulators and scalers use FPGAs as well.   

FPGA allows interacting with cartridges in real time vs just dumping the rom.  FPGA also makes achieving low latency much easier.  No goofy hacks necessary to lower the latency. 

Honestly, thinking FPGA in gaming is a fad is a bit ignorant to the technology.  That is fine, we all learn through experience, but I can tell you it definitely is not a fad and is here to stay.  

FPGA is no more a fad than using ARM chips.  It is an established technology that people will continue to utilize. 

 

Edited May 29 by SegaSnatcher

[SegaSnatcher]

On 3/28/2024 at 9:38 AM, zzip said:

No.   The FPGA guys remind me of the Plasma TV guys.   They'd rant and rave in their video forums about how anyone who bought an LCD TV was an idiot when plasma was so obviously superior.   But they'd focus on a couple areas - deep blacks and maybe better viewing angles.   But they'd ignore how LCD was better in many other ways:  thinner, lightweight, easier to mount, more energy efficient,  worked well at any room light level.

 

Yeah LCD did have some issues,  but they made great strides over the years to improve viewing angles, refresh rates and contrast ratios (to give deeper blacks).   The Plasma guys would act like no improvement was ever made to LCD.   Plasma died a decade or so back, but at least the 'deep black' guys have OLED to fawn over now!

 

I've watched the emulation scene develop since the 90s and it's made amazing strides.   Lag isn't a problem for me, probably because if an emulator performs poorly, I don't use it, and I stick with emulators that perform well.    If there's lag there, I don't feel it.  I can't rule out that there isn't a tiny amount, but not enough for me to notice.    Just like I don't notice that the blacks on my LCD monitor here are really dark gray.

 

I don't think the vast majority of people buying them are going to be bothered that these retro devices are running emulators,  many probably haven't heard of FPGA nor could explain the difference between FPGA and software emulation.

 

And as for price, for just over $100 you get a $30 joystick and over two dozen games.   I don't see how that's overpriced.

During Plasmas prime they were objectively superior for watching movies at home vs LCDs.  Motion clarity, black levels, color handling, viewing angles to name a few examples. LCDs during that time were not that great.   I would never be rude to those who bought an LCD over a Plasma, but I would be honest to them about the differences. 

LCDs have greatly improved since, but now we have OLED tech that wipes the floor with the best LCD for most applications.  LCDs main advantage is having more lower cost options.   I still use LCD in some applications like computer monitors and obviously most handheld gaming devices use that tech. 

Edited May 29 by SegaSnatcher

[jerseystyle]

On 3/28/2024 at 12:34 PM, remowilliams said:

Why do people keep responding to these endless crap 'hot take' topic posts...

Because we all have to help him boost his “engagement”, since he got more likes on Reddit one time or something. 
 

 

[NE146]

For me, a big part of what I like about FPGA (e.g. on a MiSTer) is the faithful analog output to a CRT! ...which is often not as readily available on the emulation devices, and if it is you often have to tweak it by scaling it, etc. which you may or may not get right unless you can A/B it to an original console.  Anyway, to play 2600, 5200, Atari 400/800, NES, Astrocade, Genesis, etc. shining in phosphourous glory as they should, while still having their entire libraries at your fingertips is awesome.

 

It's a pity that the MiSTer has gotten so expensive but when I bought it, it was only $120 for the board and about $50 for the SDRAM. Hopefully prices will go back down, especially with the clones coming out soon.

 

That said, I'm playing SNES Earthbound for the first time ever and I have multiple options (SNES+SD2SNES, SNES Mini, Analogue Pocket, Steam Deck, MiSTer, SuperNT, etc.) but what do I choose to play it on?  Emulated on the Switch! Specifically for the easy Save State & Rewind functions. I could play it on the Steam Deck but the switch just feels lighter.  I could play it on the Analogue Pocket, or the SD2SNES, or the SuperNT, but I'd be missing out on rewind.  I could play it on the PC or SNES Mini but I don't want to sit at my desk, and prefer to play it handheld.

 

There are pros and cons to everything.. so I'm someone who generally doesn't like it unless I have every option available to me. I have to have original hardware + carts & flashcarts, emulation devices (dedicated Mini Consoles/handhelds + PC), and the FPGA consoles as well.  If that means I have one or two dozen ways to play Super Mario Bros, then that's what it's all about.. because I like video games.

Edited May 29 by NE146

[Razzie.P]

51 minutes ago, jerseystyle said:

Because we all have to help him boost his “engagement”, since he got more likes on Reddit one time or something. 
 

 

Funny thing is, most people in this thread won't realize your comment is based on a 100% true event  🤣

[zzip]

1 hour ago, SegaSnatcher said:

FPGA allows interacting with cartridges in real time vs just dumping the rom

In theory, nothing is stopping a software emulator from doing this either.   Most were simply coded to work with rom files since PC compatible cart readers weren't common.   For system integraters creating these retro systems, it's easier to have a cart reader spit out a rom file to pass to an emulator than it is to re-engineer the emulator to interface directly with a cart reader

 

1 hour ago, SegaSnatcher said:

During Plasmas prime they were objectively superior for watching movies at home vs LCDs.  Motion clarity, black levels, color handling, viewing angles to name a few examples. LCDs during that time were not that great.   I would never be rude to those who bought an LCD over a Plasma, but I would be honest to them about the differences. 

But they were inferior when it came to bright room performance, glare, energy efficiency, weight, and burn-in.   Which technology is better comes down to what your priorities are.    LCD was more versatile and cost effective so it won out. 

 

 Reminds me of how Amiga users could not understand why so many people were buying PCs since Amiga's were 'obviously' better.   But they were only better in a world where audio/visual performance are the only things that matter.   People who needed a computer to run business applications at home didn't care about having the best graphics or amazing sound, they just needed to run the same apps they use at work.   Amiga fans made the mistake of assuming best graphics/sound = best computer for everyone's needs.

 

 

[SegaSnatcher]

11 minutes ago, zzip said:

In theory, nothing is stopping a software emulator from doing this either.   Most were simply coded to work with rom files since PC compatible cart readers weren't common.   For system integraters creating these retro systems, it's easier to have a cart reader spit out a rom file to pass to an emulator than it is to re-engineer the emulator to interface directly with a cart reader

 

 

Whether is theoretical possible is kinda irrelevant since nobody has released a product using software emulation that can read carts in real time and likely never will, because at that point they would likely just use FPGA.  

In regards to LCD vs Plasma.  Yeah, I will agree for watching Sports/TV shows in the afternoon LCDs would have that advantage to fight glare.  

 

[zzip]

49 minutes ago, SegaSnatcher said:

Whether is theoretical possible is kinda irrelevant since nobody has released a product using software emulation that can read carts in real time and likely never will, because at that point they would likely just use FPGA.  

I think  the 2600+ illustrated the need for such a thing.   You wouldn't need to issue firmware updates to increase compatibility with cart types if you could have your emulator address your cartridge port pins directly

[SegaSnatcher]

1 hour ago, zzip said:

I think  the 2600+ illustrated the need for such a thing.   You wouldn't need to issue firmware updates to increase compatibility with cart types if you could have your emulator address your cartridge port pins directly

It all comes down to resources put in, target audience and price point goals.   I doubt Atari would ever consider an FPGA system that can run carts in real time.  The 2600+ is about the best we can expect from them.  

Though, its about time we moved past 720p max resolution for these software emulation machines.  720p is fine for a handheld's display, but makes no sense for HDMI out to a modern TV when 1080p has been the standard for over a decade. 

[Cardboard76]

On 5/18/2024 at 10:13 PM, r_chase said:

I feel like we should acknowledge that it's not going away any time soon. Mostly because it's getting cheaper to make now.

same. FPGAs are cheap as hell for some folks. like, $100 and under. if anything Neotari should probably make a revision of the 2600+ with correctly wired joystick ports, a cartridge slot that works like the OG, composite alongside HDMI, FPGA stuff instead of emulation, etc to fix the flaws of the current hardware. idk, the 2600+ works fine as a cheap and easy alternative to lugging about a CRT and full size 2600, but it's not really good for much else. also updating the firmware is a chore, and some of the stuff can't be changed or fixed, like the cartridge port being a dumper or the joystick ports being wired up wrong. anyway that's my take on this stuff.

[Razzie.P]

39 minutes ago, SegaSnatcher said:

It all comes down to resources put in, target audience and price point goals.   I doubt Atari would ever consider an FPGA system that can run carts in real time.  The 2600+ is about the best we can expect from them.  
 

You're probably right, but I sure hope you're wrong.  This company has proven they can sell 10 carts at $1000 (and not all them even work properly) and folks will buy it, so I think they can find an audience for a well made, premium console product.

[Cardboard76]

41 minutes ago, Razzie.P said:

You're probably right, but I sure hope you're wrong.  This company has proven they can sell 10 carts at $1000 (and not all them even work properly) and folks will buy it, so I think they can find an audience for a well made, premium console product.

yeah, the collectors market is pretty nuts tbh. me? i'm just some guy who occasionally plays Atari and maybe talks here once in a blue moon. i don't really think about buying games since i'd rather just spend money on a HarmonyCart than collect individual games. also i feel like Atari could probably pull off an FPGA box thing that can run carts in real time for around $150 or something since FPGAs themselves are, like, $100 or less these days.  

[M-S]

4 hours ago, SegaSnatcher said:

Whether is theoretical possible is kinda irrelevant since nobody has released a product using software emulation that can read carts in real time and likely never will, because at that point they would likely just use FPGA.  
 

Mostly likely because no one in the console scene has tried it yet, not an inherent flaw on software emulation that makes it harder to develop. I know that in the computer scene some people were trying this concept a while ago. There is also the community built Atari console which was being worked after the 2600+ came out.

[M-S]

38 minutes ago, Cardboard76 said:

yeah, the collectors market is pretty nuts tbh. me? i'm just some guy who occasionally plays Atari and maybe talks here once in a blue moon. i don't really think about buying games since i'd rather just spend money on a HarmonyCart than collect individual games. also i feel like Atari could probably pull off an FPGA box thing that can run carts in real time for around $150 or something since FPGAs themselves are, like, $100 or less these days.  

You are looking at some pretty unrealistic and unviable profit margins, it's not just the cost of FPGA board, there's the shell, the box, the controllers and licensing. The 2600+ probably doesn't even cost $40 to make and they sold it for $129.

And the $100 or less FPGA's either don't have enough LUTs for an Atari or don't have enough pins for a cartridge port.

[SegaSnatcher]

2 hours ago, Razzie.P said:

You're probably right, but I sure hope you're wrong.  This company has proven they can sell 10 carts at $1000 (and not all them even work properly) and folks will buy it, so I think they can find an audience for a well made, premium console product.

I would love a more premium product from Atari that could run carts in real time and have 1080p or higher resolution, but gotta keep my expectations realistic.  

[Gentlegamer]

When I first learned of emulation in the 90s, I thought it was magic.

 

When I first learned of FPGA, I thought it was magic.

 

 

[Razzie.P]

4 hours ago, Cardboard76 said:

i feel like Atari could probably pull off an FPGA box thing that can run carts in real time for around $150 or something since FPGAs themselves are, like, $100 or less these days.  

Just off the top of my head, I think the comparable stuff (AVS, Analogue products) seems to be around $200 - $250, so they wouldn't have to cut it to $150, most likely.

[CPUWIZ]

3 hours ago, Gentlegamer said:

When I first learned of emulation in the 90s, I thought it was magic.

 

When I first learned of FPGA, I thought it was magic.

 

 

 

When I learned programming 40 years ago, I thought nothing was magic anymore.