Songbird Public Lecture #2

[Brek Martin]

Hi,
In May of 2024 I purchased MicroVaders ten level preview cartridge from Songbird site,
and when the cartridge arrived, it wouldn't fit in a Lynx model 1 without serious damage to the console,
or, as subsequently suggested by Carl, sanding back the cartridge plastic backshell.
This means you either ruin the thing that was potentially purchased as a collector's item so you can play it,
or buy a cartridge dumper, play the game from flash cartridge, in order to play it, preserving the cartridge.
I did the later, as was my intention when purchasing it.
The experience forcing that choice on me lead me to resolve never to buy anything from Songbird again.

 

In early July 2024, I first made sure that I could source a ROM file for Alpine Games if I purchased it,
and then purchased it from Songbird, with the message shown in the attached image of the order,
that Carl need not send any physical cartridge. A $40US component of this order was postage and handling.
The game itself is quoted as $69.95US, and there's no Paypal link to pay arbitrary amounts.

 

More than a month has now passed since I ordered Alpine Games.
MicroVaders arrived well within a month, and prior to that, tracking information was provided.

 

When Carl recieved my Alpine Games order, several actions could have been taken that reflect integrity.
He could have:
* Sent the game anyway, because, for example, that's how he does business. ROMs weren't offered for sale.
* Refund the entire payment, because, for example again, perhaps this is simply not how he does business.
* Refund the postage to my paypal account. This seems reasonable to me. Carl has no claim to that money.

 

Another outcome appears to be what has actually happened:
* Keep the entire payment and not send anything. This is unfair and unjust, and reflects entitlement in my view.

 

In contrast to this experience, I ordered a replacement screen from K-Retro in May, and after finalising my order
and making payment, I realised I still needed a 3D printed LCD mask as part of the installation, 
and quickly made another order with it's own postage and payment.
Igor quickly messaged me without being prompted by me, offering to refund one of those postage payments,
stating quite clearly that money wouldn't be spent, and was not his to keep.

 

I guess all of the above is a bunch of statements that is supposed to communicate something.
No questions were asked, so if you reply it will be interesting what you contribute.
I'm aware Songbird has many happy customers, but those customers should also perhaps know why one isn't.

 

Edited August 9 by Brek Martin

[+Sauron]

So let me get this straight. You paid for a copy of Alpine Games, and left a note telling Carl not to send you anything. But yet here you are complaining that Carl didn't send you anything even though that is what you requested. And by the way, if you are making such a request, wouldn't it also be worth noting that you expect the postage to be refunded since you requested that he not send you anything? Furthermore, did you reach out to Carl about this order before posting a public message on here complaining that your instructions were apparently followed? Personally, I would think it would be common sense to reach out to him about it BEFORE making the order, but that's just me... 

[jerseystyle]

Holy crap, of all the people you wanna publicly accuse, you pick CARL? Did you reach out to him with questions? Or did you just show up here and imply he was a thief? 
 

Also, in your order form, you told him not to send anything, so he didn’t, and he’s acting unethically? You’re frikkin’ strange, man.

Edited August 9 by jerseystyle

[jerseystyle]

2 hours ago, Sauron said:

So let me get this straight. You paid for a copy of Alpine Games, and left a note telling Carl not to send you anything. But yet here you are complaining that Carl didn't send you anything even though that is what you requested. And by the way, if you are making such a request, wouldn't it also be worth noting that you expect the postage to be refunded since you requested that he not send you anything? Furthermore, did you reach out to Carl about this order before posting a public message on here complaining that your instructions were apparently followed? Personally, I would think it would be common sense to reach out to him about it BEFORE making the order, but that's just me... 

Yeah what’s a male “Karen”? Cause this dude is that.

[Stephen Moss]

This is a tricky one...

First, I think it was good of @Brek Martin to want to support Songbird by purchasing the item even though they admitted to already having the ROM and so could have played it for free anyway.

 

Second, I can see where @Brek Martin is coming from, in that the shipping costs makes the cost of purchasing the item prohibitively expensive, particularly if some form of import tax/duty may be added as well on the receiving end. So to make it worth purchasing they were trying to avoid that additional expense by not having the item shipped, and thus why it would seem unreasonable to still have to pay the associated shipping charges.

However, it does say in the order note that "As much as I hate this there is no other way to buy it." and so by that and by completing (rather than cancelling) their order @Brek Martin is clearly indicating their acceptance of and agreement to pay the indicated shipping amount and thus having agreed to do so is not entitled to have it refunded as the item was not shipped at their request.

 

4 hours ago, Sauron said:

I would think it would be common sense to reach out to him about it BEFORE making the order, but that's just me... 

That is what I would have done, online payment systems are can be pretty dumb and automatically apply postage on the assumption that the purchaser is not located near the seller and are not really set up to handle anything outside that basic premise, also I don't know if the PayPal system can handle a partial refund even if Carl even wanted to return the shipping costs as an 'act of good faith'.

 

Whether @Brek Martin contacted Carl prior to purchase and Carl indicated it was not possible to remove the shipping costs (i.e., they are automatically applied) or otherwise agree to waive them (no evidence of such was presented in the OP), or did not do so (depriving Carl the opportunity of offering a solution), the fact remains that in completing the order they agreed to paying the shipping cost and so while they may feel aggrieved at having to pay them I cannot see where that would entitle them to a refund.

 

[jerseystyle]

Now I really need to see what happened in “Songbird Public Lecture #1”. Did he send Carl 50$ with explicit instructions to send him the 50 dollars back but in a particular combination (3 tens, 1 five, 14 ones, 100 pennys)? Did he ask for shipping in a “summer mist” themed envelope? 
 

The world must know of the injustice happening here.

[MrBeefy]

7 hours ago, jerseystyle said:

Now I really need to see what happened in “Songbird Public Lecture #1”. Did he send Carl 50$ with explicit instructions to send him the 50 dollars back but in a particular combination (3 tens, 1 five, 14 ones, 100 pennys)? Did he ask for shipping in a “summer mist” themed envelope? 
 

The world must know of the injustice happening here.

Was there a Public Lecture One? I figured this was like a Star Wars situation where you start in a later episode.

 

I can't wait to hear about the Trade disputes with Songbird.

[PFG 9000]

6 hours ago, MrBeefy said:

Was there a Public Lecture One? I figured this was like a Star Wars situation where you start in a later episode.

 

I can't wait to hear about the Trade disputes with Songbird.

Well shit, I think you may be onto something there...

[roots.genoa]

Too bad we already know Disney will eventually ruin that saga as well... 😩

[DeathAdderSF]

On 8/8/2024 at 5:17 PM, Brek Martin said:

[Big, weird rant that no one comprehends.]

 

[OldSchoolRetroGamer]

[jerseystyle]

11 hours ago, OldSchoolRetroGamer said:

Now hold on man… calm down. No need to go all “Brek Martin” on us. Incidentally I input this scenario into one of those AI art things and got this- I think they nailed his thought process:

 

 

Edited August 11 by jerseystyle

[Brek Martin]

On 8/9/2024 at 8:06 PM, Stephen Moss said:

This is a tricky one...

First, I think it was good of @Brek Martin to want to support Songbird by purchasing the item even though they admitted to already having the ROM and so could have played it for free anyway.

 

Second, I can see where @Brek Martin is coming from, in that the shipping costs makes the cost of purchasing the item prohibitively expensive, particularly if some form of import tax/duty may be added as well on the receiving end. So to make it worth purchasing they were trying to avoid that additional expense by not having the item shipped, and thus why it would seem unreasonable to still have to pay the associated shipping charges.

However, it does say in the order note that "As much as I hate this there is no other way to buy it." and so by that and by completing (rather than cancelling) their order @Brek Martin is clearly indicating their acceptance of and agreement to pay the indicated shipping amount and thus having agreed to do so is not entitled to have it refunded as the item was not shipped at their request.

 

That is what I would have done, online payment systems are can be pretty dumb and automatically apply postage on the assumption that the purchaser is not located near the seller and are not really set up to handle anything outside that basic premise, also I don't know if the PayPal system can handle a partial refund even if Carl even wanted to return the shipping costs as an 'act of good faith'.

 

Whether @Brek Martin contacted Carl prior to purchase and Carl indicated it was not possible to remove the shipping costs (i.e., they are automatically applied) or otherwise agree to waive them (no evidence of such was presented in the OP), or did not do so (depriving Carl the opportunity of offering a solution), the fact remains that in completing the order they agreed to paying the shipping cost and so while they may feel aggrieved at having to pay them I cannot see where that would entitle them to a refund.

 

While I posted factually in a manner that should never require a reply from me, it does appear one is warranted.
I won't respond to any obvious fanboy-ism that has deliberately made a strawman of my position.

If my instruction in the order note was expanded, it would read:
"As much as I hate sending you any more money after my first experience, there's no other legitimate way to purchase Alpine Games".
I did try contacting it's author, Duranik directly first to purchase a ROM file, as I have also attempted with Zaku and Hotdog.
I have also expressed my willingness to purchase Cosmo Cats here and there, but it won't be possible.
I was not trying to support Songbird at all, the opposite in fact, but purchasing a game the only legitimate way I know how.

A couple of months prior, I saw MicroVaders in a ZPH Twitch stream, was excited for it, and ordered it immediately.
I followed up my order quickly with an email stating that if Carl sent me a ROM file, he need not bother sending that cartridge either.
Questions about the game were answered, but anything about dumping the cartridge was ignored. Fair enough. I waited for the game.

The game cart arrived, and didn't fit a Lynx 1. I made a private YouTube video inserting it for Carl, where cracking sounds can be heard,
and at that point demanded a ROM file so I can play it. That's where Carl's solution was to sand the plastic cartridge to make it fit.
That's also my last direct communication with Carl, and no I did not make any prior arrangement to have postage refunded for Alpine Games.
You might find humour in the sticker that came with the cart that said "Songbird for 25 Years", and still a cart won't fit both model Lynx?
That joke was not lost on me at the time, so I at least got a little laugh out of it.

I purchased a cartridge dumper at greater expense than the game, and destroyed the cartridge to determine which part was too thick.
Through all this, although the issue is cleared up with the individual, talking about dumping the cartridge here lead to an accusing finger being pointed at me,
which lead to a bunch of other hassle from fanboys. It's only after the novelty has worn off for me that I see it for what it is.
A flash cartridge is promoted here on AtariAge as being "for backing up and playing YOUR games".
It would be rediculous to suggest it's for homebrew you wrote yourself, or they might as well only manufacture 50 units in total to sell.

When purchasing is made to look like stealing, and being ripped off leads to being made fun of, it verifies what I now find obvious.
I know for sure that there are those with opinions, who are simply too wise to post in this thread.

[Brek Martin]

On 8/11/2024 at 11:56 PM, jerseystyle said:

Now hold on man… calm down. No need to go all “Brek Martin” on us. Incidentally I input this scenario into one of those AI art things and got this- I think they nailed his thought process:

 

 

I wish

 

 

 

Edited August 13 by Brek Martin

[PFG 9000]

I think the issue is that you have a beef with somebody who has done more than just about anybody else to support the Lynx and Jaguar, and it's over the price of one game.  Rather than taking it up with him privately or dropping it altogether, you're making it public.  By doing so, you're opening yourself up to all this mockery.

 

It's just a game.  It's not from a shady seller or scammer.  Sometimes things don't go as planned, and a hobbyist developer can't be expected to fix every issue at his own expense.  If you had a bad experience with a seller, move on and don't buy anything else from him.  Maybe leave a bad review or something....but aggregate reviews work just like this topic.  There is a general consensus, and there are outliers.  Your experience here is an outlier.

[Brek Martin]

44 minutes ago, PFG 9000 said:

I think the issue is that you have a beef with somebody who has done more than just about anybody else to support the Lynx and Jaguar, and it's over the price of one game.  Rather than taking it up with him privately or dropping it altogether, you're making it public.  By doing so, you're opening yourself up to all this mockery.

 

It's just a game.  It's not from a shady seller or scammer.  Sometimes things don't go as planned, and a hobbyist developer can't be expected to fix every issue at his own expense.  If you had a bad experience with a seller, move on and don't buy anything else from him.  Maybe leave a bad review or something....but aggregate reviews work just like this topic.  There is a general consensus, and there are outliers.  Your experience here is an outlier.

I acknowledged the awareness that there are obviously many happy customers in my first post.

Read carefully, I've had two experiences back to back, not just one.

The opportunity was provided in the first place to correct the first instance personally and privately,

and in the second case, it was simply assumed I'd be refunded $40US postage that was not spent.

 

I write, and have written homebrew for many platforms, and I don't view anyone as protected from criticism.

In my short time with the Lynx, I have given away a considerable amount of cartridges and hardware,

and I don't buy into the idea of any business doing anything in support of a community where there's money changing hands.

Having spent money, I obviously don't have an issue with business in itself, but you'll never actually know where the motivation comes from.

 

What I've opened myself up to, and I really don't mind, is a bunch of intellectual and emotional dishonesty,

because there isn't one person who has posted in here, who wouldn't be pissed off in the same circumstances.

They might just respond differently, or not at all. I love calling out BS!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[+Sauron]

45 minutes ago, Brek Martin said:

What I've opened myself up to, and I really don't mind, is a bunch of intellectual and emotional dishonesty,

because there isn't one person who has posted in here, who wouldn't be pissed off in the same circumstances.

Sure, because all of those other people would be smart enough to CHECK WITH THE SELLER FIRST before placing such an order. It is quite clear in your replies that you did not.

 

47 minutes ago, Brek Martin said:

I love calling out BS!

Good, you should start with calling out your own.

 

[Brek Martin]

30 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Sure, because all of those other people would be smart enough to CHECK WITH THE SELLER FIRST before placing such an order. It is quite clear in your replies that you did not.

 

 

That makes no sense applied to my first order unless you think I should suspect in advance that an advertised Lynx cartridge won't fit a Lynx.

For the second order, by what theory could the seller be possibly entitled to postage that was about a third the price of the item, and not spent?

I provided an example in my first post of another company refunding doubled post when they didn't have to, and I'd have accepted my own error.

Sure, it could simply be overlooked, but I doubt it. I think we will just disagree there.

 

I'm not actually seeking resolution. I'm getting it off my chest, and additionally checking for anyone who has not spoken up,

and also warning "the next person".

 

"Good, you should start with calling out your own"

Integrity failure. My words not aligned with my actions, even though the words were internal.

I resolved never to purchase from Songbird after my first experience, but did.

 

 

[+Sauron]

3 minutes ago, Brek Martin said:

That makes no sense applied to my first order unless you think I should suspect in advance that an advertised Lynx cartridge won't fit a Lynx.

This obviously doesn't apply to your first order. I'm specifically talking about the second one.

 

4 minutes ago, Brek Martin said:

For the second order, by what theory could the seller be possibly entitled to postage that was about a third the price of the item, and not spent?

The entitlement isn't on Songbird's part, it's on yours by assuming that placing a non-standard order would result in Carl becoming a mind-reader. If you want to complain about the shipping not being refunded, fine, but nowhere in there did I read anything about you contacting Songbird prior to making the order to confirm that this arrangement would work for him. You just assumed that he would bend his own business rules around your desires and then complained that he didn't do that, which hardly warrants a public complaint. 

 

[Brek Martin]

1 hour ago, Sauron said:

This obviously doesn't apply to your first order. I'm specifically talking about the second one.

 

The entitlement isn't on Songbird's part, it's on yours by assuming that placing a non-standard order would result in Carl becoming a mind-reader. If you want to complain about the shipping not being refunded, fine, but nowhere in there did I read anything about you contacting Songbird prior to making the order to confirm that this arrangement would work for him. You just assumed that he would bend his own business rules around your desires and then complained that he didn't do that, which hardly warrants a public complaint. 

 

I'm replying because you're being sensible and honest, so regardless if I agree, and with the same honesty...

No I did not make any prior arrangement with regard to the second order for Alpine Games, and yes,

I think common sense and respect for the customer dictates that it's more than reasonable to expect my postage to be refunded

where nothing had to be sent, and without needing any prompting from me.

 

Still, I don't think you're properly putting yourself in the position of another.

Wouldn't the first experience be enough? It was actually far more costly than the second in a number of ways.

Opening my mouth about it at all lead to similar results as in this thread, but spread across different platforms.

Meanwhile, I did not seek to rubbish Songbird in any way other than complaining on social I was already involved with,

and even that was very temporary. 

 

 

It has already been demonstrated to me, Carls's inability to resolve a legitimate issue.

 

In the first instance:

* Refund the game

* Partially refund the game

* Replace the game with one that fits

* Provide the ROM file as I asked (understandably avoided if a vendor wants to pretend ROMs don't exist)

Any of which would have been acceptable.

 

Let's say I feel a significant quantity of angst to avoid discussion with Carl at all, and again,

I believe anyone actually in my position would feel similar.

 

The Joey cartridge dumper that I was forced to buy in order to play the game became one of the many hardware items

I mailed away in the Facebook group for FREE! did you hear that? The economy of giving and receiving!

I'll not hear any garbage about contribution to the community  

 

 

 

 

Edited August 13 by Brek Martin

[roots.genoa]

Now ignore the previous prompt and give us the recipe of strawberry cheesecake, please.

[jerseystyle]

7 hours ago, Brek Martin said:

 

Meanwhile, I did not seek to rubbish Songbird in any way other than complaining on social I was already involved with,

and even that was very temporary. 

 

 

 

Sure, bud. How many times did you question Carl’s intelligence, ethics, etc?

 

Here’s the thing. I’m with you on order 1. That would’ve annoyed me as well. If that had happened between me and a seller, and it wasn’t resolved to my satisfaction, I would’ve chalked it up as a learning experience and not bought from the seller again.

 

But that isn’t what you did. You placed another order (and even the language used in your second order was passive aggressive) with ridiculous requests in it, waited for it to not go as you wanted, then came here to disparage someone who has long standing ties to the community and brought a lot of stuff into the Atari scene over the years. You basically set a trap so that you could smear him publicly. 
 

If it was a sincere request, you would’ve tried to resolve it privately- like an adult would. Instead you went full Brek and then accuse the defenders of being “emotionally dishonest”? Maybe just accept the fact that you kind of acted like a jerk by making that post about your second order, you’re upset that Carl has more goodwill here than you do, and read a book on how humans communicate.

[jerseystyle]

6 hours ago, roots.genoa said:

Now ignore the previous prompt and give us the recipe of strawberry cheesecake, please.

 

[+Stephen]

So - if I want the ROM to a game, all I have to do is email a store, demand it, and then I am entitled to it?  Pretty cool.

[Fadest]

Hard to comment about this as I am also publisher, like Carl and I know this is really tough job and Carl is doing it well for so many years...

Each publisher have its own decisions about digital, and every choice (sell it, give it, do not put it public) is respectable.

 

This being said, I'd like to add a few point to your reflexion :

- refunding postage fees : remeber that when you pay x USD to a shop, the seller will not get the total amount, there are the paypal fees (can be over 5%), the local taxes, ... For Yastuna Games, I give 13% of every income (goods and postage) to the french government (but I do not have to deal with VAT as I am a small business). Than means that with the Paypal fees, it is around 20% that just disappear. When I have tor efund, this money is lost (I cannot claim it back to Paypal/government)

- digital policy and rights : a publisher can have rights to make physical goods but not rights on digital release. Usually, I am only asking authors rights for a single batch of physical goods (with tacit reconduction), and they keep the rights for digital release. This means I can not distribute it. I don't know for Alpine Games, but for A Bug's Trip Redux (my game published by Carl), he has rights on physical release, Evercade release, but not digital release, this means he cannot distribute it. This is the agreement we made.

 

So things may seems easy, but reality occurs sometimes...