Doom - 10 Years of Hell

[+Sauron]

This is why newer controllers with L/R triggers and two sticks are perfect for these games.

No, they're not perfect. A mouse is perfect. A dual-analog stick is just... borderline tolerable.

 

There's a reason why almost all console FPSs have auto-aim, y'know.

 

ZylonBane is 100% absolutely, totally certifiable correct about this. Precision aiming just isn't possible with dual analog sticks, and the experience just isn't tolerable once you've played a PC FPS using a mouse and keyboard.

[Jasoco]

ZylonBane is 100% absolutely, totally certifiable correct about this. Precision aiming just isn't possible with dual analog sticks, and the experience just isn't tolerable once you've played a PC FPS using a mouse and keyboard.

Who needs Precision aiming? I always use Auto-aim.

[+Stephen Moss]

Doom kicks ass! I love playing this game and if it weren't for the motion sickness, I'd have spent a lot more time playing it over the last few years.

 

(didn't know about it 'til 1997 or so- was living under a rock )

 

Are a fellow sufferer, I totaly agree with your comments which is why having finished it once I won't be trying it again on any other difficulty settings, even Wolf 3D which appeared to have blander graphics with more blocks of single colours for the main features (Walls, Floor and Ceilings) sets me off.

 

Having said that the worst Jag game all for me in this respects is Towers II, and a recent message display of "Cartridge Error" in the title screen corresponding with a loss of all saved game data means I have to start again and I'm not sure I can face it - at least I was only on level 3 at the time.

 

So if someone does use the freely available doom engine or any other method to produce another FPS please keep us poor souls in mind and try to keep the resolution up while not using so many differing colours for the main features a-la AvP as I can usually play that for hours without any problem unless I have to run a lot or end up getting lost and going round and round in circles in those damn Air ducts.

Oh and if your writing a 3D shooter a-la Battleshpere no moving star backgounds please - Tie fighter for the PC appear to use a plain black backgound and I can play that all day, not that I really notice the background as I'm usually far to busy trying not to die.

 

Does this mean I'm I the winner of the weakest stomach competition?

[+Saturn]

Doom kicks ass! I love playing this game and if it weren't for the motion sickness, I'd have spent a lot more time playing it over the last few years.

 

(didn't know about it 'til 1997 or so- was living under a rock )

 

Are a fellow sufferer, I totaly agree with your comments which is why having finished it once I won't be trying it again on any other difficulty settings, even Wolf 3D which appeared to have blander graphics with more blocks of single colours for the main features (Walls, Floor and Ceilings) sets me off.

 

Having said that the worst Jag game all for me in this respects is Towers II, and a recent message display of "Cartridge Error" in the title screen corresponding with a loss of all saved game data means I have to start again and I'm not sure I can face it - at least I was only on level 3 at the time.

 

So if someone does use the freely available doom engine or any other method to produce another FPS please keep us poor souls in mind and try to keep the resolution up while not using so many differing colours for the main features a-la AvP as I can usually play that for hours without any problem unless I have to run a lot or end up getting lost and going round and round in circles in those damn Air ducts.

Oh and if your writing a 3D shooter a-la Battleshpere no moving star backgounds please - Tie fighter for the PC appear to use a plain black backgound and I can play that all day, not that I really notice the background as I'm usually far to busy trying not to die.

 

Does this mean I'm I the winner of the weakest stomach competition?

Alright!

 

Someone else who has to put up w/ this crap. j/k

[Atari_Owl]

Doom kicks ass! I love playing this game and if it weren't for the motion sickness, I'd have spent a lot more time playing it over the last few years.

 

(didn't know about it 'til 1997 or so- was living under a rock )

 

Are a fellow sufferer, I totaly agree with your comments which is why having finished it once I won't be trying it again on any other difficulty settings, even Wolf 3D which appeared to have blander graphics with more blocks of single colours for the main features (Walls, Floor and Ceilings) sets me off.

 

Having said that the worst Jag game all for me in this respects is Towers II, and a recent message display of "Cartridge Error" in the title screen corresponding with a loss of all saved game data means I have to start again and I'm not sure I can face it - at least I was only on level 3 at the time.

 

So if someone does use the freely available doom engine or any other method to produce another FPS please keep us poor souls in mind and try to keep the resolution up while not using so many differing colours for the main features a-la AvP as I can usually play that for hours without any problem unless I have to run a lot or end up getting lost and going round and round in circles in those damn Air ducts.

Oh and if your writing a 3D shooter a-la Battleshpere no moving star backgounds please - Tie fighter for the PC appear to use a plain black backgound and I can play that all day, not that I really notice the background as I'm usually far to busy trying not to die.

 

Does this mean I'm I the winner of the weakest stomach competition?

Alright!

 

Someone else who has to put up w/ this crap. j/k

 

Me too, actually.

The game which affects me the worst however is Goldeneye on the n64.

I love the game but i'm either feeling sick or headachey after about 15minutes.

 

Interestingly, it doesn't happen in 2 player mode.

I also don't have problem somehow with 3rd person instead of 1st person.

 

Then again, maybe my main problem with goldeneye is that i always seem to wobble up the passages,maybe thats why Doom is a bit less nauseogenic for me.

 

It's generally to do with "Vection" (impression of movement causing "sensory conflict" with inner ear, i.e. eyes tell you're moving, balance tells you you're not).

 

We did some research at ISVR using High contrast bands in VR headsets, and these showed significally higher incidence of vection.

 

So it seems the more immersed in the game you are, the higher the vection.

 

If you can separate yourself from the screen, i.e. so that you can see the edges of the screen easily, and a reasonably well lit room, to provide a static reference, that may reduce sickness (possibly). THough obviously that also reduces how immersed you are in the game.

 

Perhaps this is also why in two player mode, where there is a different frame of reference on the same screen to reduce the vection, the chance of sickness is reduced.

 

Similarly, with 3rd person games (eg Ocarina of Time, BIWN, etc) there is a static figure on th screen on which to focus. THis may also lead to less nausea. The smoother camera may also play a part.

 

SOrry for the long rambling post, its just an area which has interested me for quite some time.

 

CHeers All.

[+Saturn]

SOrry for the long rambling post, its just an area which has interested me for quite some time.

I found all of it quite interesting. I've never understood the cause of this and now at least I have a couple of explanations.

 

Goldeneye and the Turok series are the worst for me on N64.

 

Still play 'em though.

[Atari_Owl]

Well its not the whole reason I'm sure, cause even then there are some games that cause more problems than others.

 

All the same it was good research to be involved in (cause i was the most computer literate in the group and could help with the VR stuff) rather than the vehicle vibration work i was doing at the time.

 

Its just unfortunate that the vection sickness wasn't as responsive as motion sickness to stomach calming methods.

 

For example if you have something to eat and a little alcohol, then you become significantly (statistically) less susceptible to sea sickness.

 

Wouldn't that be good?

Have a beer, then sit down and not feel sick playing GoldenEye? And if anybody asks, just say the drinks are there to prevent 'sensory conflict'

 

Cheers

[Tyrant]

Jaguar DOOM has no music, but more levels.

 

32X DOOM controls better to me, has music, but less levels and one-sided sprites.

 

SNES DOOM is slow compared to both but also has music. Also the levels that are in the other two are more detailed in some ways. But has no level select, instead has episodes, but only on certain skills.

 

Why are they all different? More levels in some, music in another. I take it they were all ported by different companies?

I think they were yes, also differences between availible cpu time, memory and rom space would all impact different areas on different systems. Jaguar doom for example lacks music because they couldnt (or didnt) get the DSP running music, fx, and networking all at once, it wasnt a storage issue of not having room for the music, which would be why some versions have less levels or textures.

 

Anyway, anyone notice that these DOOM's don't have the see-through wall feature? Where a Linedef has a transparent texture on it, like bars or a window. Am I to take it none of the systems had the ability to do this? Or was it laziness? Does the PS1 version have it?

Thats very interesting, I hadnt noticed, but its a very curious thing indeed. This would largely be due I suspect to cpu time limitations... I forget exactly how doom's engine handles partially transparent walls, but my guess would be that it treats them as totally transparent and then blits over the top of the walls behind, and that of course could potentially cause a huge slowdown if it has to draw multiple transparent wals behind each other filling the screen.

 

On the other hand, AvP manages it very nicely (those curved striped... things, that stick out into corridors... ooh and medlab I seem to remember is full of transparency), and even in some rooms (especially one I remember in one of the beta's) that are full of transparent walls, but of course AvP is a raycaster (I refuse to call Doom a raycaster due to its bsp tree natue), and therefore working out which walls are behind is an utterly trivial matter for it, but that dosnt explain quite how it can get away with having so many transparent walls when Doom cant, as the issues involved are the same for both games, no matter the way they find the walls behind the transparent one, they still have to draw all of the transparent textures essentially the same way. All I can think of is that perhaps AvP puts less workload on its graphics engine than doom and so can cope better. Thinking more, I think this must be true, since Doom's textures are of course quite complex as it stands, being made from multiple bitmaps layered together (in the pc version at least) to save storage space.

 

Also, at the end of 32X DOOM, did you know the phrase "C:/DOOM>_" appears in the corner?

LOL, cute.

 

And another thing, in 32X DOOM, level 15 is based on one of the computer DOOM's more techie-based computer filled levels, but is completely changed texture-wise. It's all stone, wood and metal. Is there a reason 32X DOOM (And some others) didn't use computer textures?

I would guess thats a storage issue, there wasnt enough cart space to put all the techno textures on, which would also explain why all the sprites face you all the time, they didnt have room for the other frames (of them looking away, sideways etc).

[ZylonBane]

Who needs Precision aiming? I always use Auto-aim.

Then you admit that your controller of choice is inadequate for FPS gaming, and that you have to turn on the training wheels to hit anything.

 

Can you imagine using an analog thumbstick to control your mouse in Windows? Some laptops actually have little mini-sticks for moving the mouse. It's awkward as hell. That's how FPS gaming with a pad feels after you've learned to do it with a mouse. The degree of precision and control you're sacrificing is immense.

 

Eh, your loss. Live in a cave if you want.

[NE146]

Yeah, that was one of my biggest shocks was that you had to literally aim your gun in most FPS's now. In doom you just kind of shot in the general direction of the guy and you'd hit him I specifically remember playing UT and I'd be shooting my friend OVER AND OVER AND OVER and he just would NOT DIE! Then he'd turn around, and BAM in one second I was dead! He later told me it was because of a "head shot" which was a revelation... I tried aiming later but could never shoot the head too well while running around (before they shot mine)

 

I get a deep sinking feeling whenever I play an FPS. I mean I played and loved Doom of course. But I haven't played any since then!

 

So basically when I play now I SUCK at moving around. I'm constantly hitting corners and walls and pointing up towards the sky (or ground). Or I'll do something like take 8 minutes to try and figure my way out of a building or section, then a couple minutes later inexplicably find myself back inside that exact same building!!

 

Meanwhile the rest of the world has mastered FPS controls over the past many years to an art where they're moving and jumping around deftly like themselves were moving in the game... whereas I'm blowing myself up while trying to figure out how to change weapons or falling off a ledge.

 

But, I bet I could beat the majority of them in Donkey Kong or Defender

[NE146]

There's a reason why almost all console FPSs have auto-aim, y'know.

 

Is that so? Is this like Doom where you just shoot in the general direction? (or does it snap your crosshairs on someone).

 

Also can you play an FPS multiplayer with one person using autoaim and the other not? If so would it be considered cheating to enter an online multiplayer deathmatch with autoaim on?

[Jasoco]

Who needs Precision aiming? I always use Auto-aim.

Then you admit that your controller of choice is inadequate for FPS gaming, and that you have to turn on the training wheels to hit anything.

 

[More stuff]

No. Not necessarily. I've always used Auto-aim and consider it a part of gaming.

 

My problem isn't with the mouse itself, it's that I can not STAND using it.

 

Tell me something. How do you play with a mouse? Where are your hands? How do you handle having to pick up the damn thing every few seconds to reposition it before it leaves the matt? Do you also use the keyboard?

 

This is what I do. When I try playing with a mouse, I feel I need three hands. The mouse is too much a chore for me. And I am perfectly contempt with just a keyboard or a superior Xbox controller.

[ZylonBane]

No. Not necessarily. I've always used Auto-aim and consider it a part of gaming.

Kind of like how paraplegics consider a wheelchair part of living?

 

Tell me something. How do you play with a mouse? Where are your hands? How do you handle having to pick up the damn thing every few seconds to reposition it before it leaves the matt?

My right hand is on the mouse-- exactly the same as when I'm using a Windows app. My left hand is usually resting over the W/A/S/D keys. I don't have to pick up the mouse very often because I don't have the mouse sensitivity set insanely low... and when I do, it's a subconscious action-- just like when I'm using Windows.

 

And I am perfectly contempt with just a keyboard or a superior Xbox controller.

My thoughts exactly! (heheh)

[Gunstar]

A gamepad actually isn't bad for Doom since you can only look straight ahead anyway. But for anything after Quake, mouse-based aiming is essential.

 

If we are strictly talking about the Jaguar and other consoles of the day with the digital pads, I agree, but other than that I find what you said to be total BS. I play Halo on the XBOX all the time and the analog controls are excellent and I much prefer them over a mouse for looking and GOD-awful keyboard to move about(are you people INSANE?!? ). Analog controls are every bit as fast and responsive and sensitive as a mouse, and you don't have to use the keyboard (which is the bad part of the combo, not the mouse). Your excuse held water 10 years ago, but not today with todays console controllers. I can only imagine how painful it would be to play HALO with a keyboard to move and shoot

[Tyrant]

Ok ppl, I dont know why Im getting involved here but I am.... to play a nice fps... say... AvP 1 on pc, you map the keys to somewhere like wsad, or the numpad, where you've got lots of extra keys all arround your movement keys, for things like changing weapons, opening doors etc, then you have shoot on your left button, jump on your right, night vision on the third and other useful functions you can map to the remaining mouse buttons if you have them, thus you have one hand constantly on your mouse (or trackball in my case, much nicer to use than a mouse for gaming imvho), and the other constantly on your keyboard, with all the functions you need in one area, so you can keep walking forward while opening doors, spinning round and shotting while activating chat macros etc... you'll never get anywhere in any game (even doom) if you dont learn to use the setup programs and remap the keys.

[Jasoco]

Tell me something. How do you play with a mouse? Where are your hands? How do you handle having to pick up the damn thing every few seconds to reposition it before it leaves the matt?

My right hand is on the mouse-- exactly the same as when I'm using a Windows app. My left hand is usually resting over the W/A/S/D keys. I don't have to pick up the mouse very often because I don't have the mouse sensitivity set insanely low... and when I do, it's a subconscious action-- just like when I'm using Windows.

Are WSAD set up to be the arrows?

 

Tell ya what. Just for fun I just set my controls in Ultimate DOOM (DoomLegacy) a way I never did before.

 

I use A for strafe left. D for strafe right. W for forward. S for backward. Mouse left and right to turn, button 1 for Fire, button 2 for Open, button 3 for Jump.

 

And I played for a few minutes. While it takes getting used to, it's almost like using an Xbox controller. I had to turn off MouseLook because I can't move the mouse straight left or right and kept looking at the enemy's feet and shooting. Or shooting into the air. But it was unique, and while not as easy as using an Xbox controller, I do see the appeal.

[Gunstar]

Who needs Precision aiming? I always use Auto-aim.

Then you admit that your controller of choice is inadequate for FPS gaming, and that you have to turn on the training wheels to hit anything.

 

Can you imagine using an analog thumbstick to control your mouse in Windows? Some laptops actually have little mini-sticks for moving the mouse. It's awkward as hell. That's how FPS gaming with a pad feels after you've learned to do it with a mouse. The degree of precision and control you're sacrificing is immense.

 

Eh, your loss. Live in a cave if you want.

 

Once again, I TOTALLY disagree. I have a laptop with just such a controller and it is everybit as fast and accurate as the mouse, in fact, i find it better because it takes no moving of the arm&hand like a mouse, just the thumb. Just like analog controls on consoles. There is no degree of precision lost!!! I can aim perfectly fine WITHOUT AUTO AIM on HALO. Once again, the area that youtotally ignore, that is THE problem with mouse&keyboard controls is the KEYBOARD, not the mouse!!! analog controls and mice in this day are just as good as each other as far as I'm concerned, like anything if your used to doing things one way and then try it another, it is going to seem awkward and worse until you get used to it. Except playing games with keyboard keys, that's always awkward!

The simple fact is a keyboard was designed for typing, NOT playing games, PERIOD.

[Tyrant]

I had to turn off MouseLook because I can't move the mouse straight left or right and kept looking at the enemy's feet and shooting. Or shooting into the air. But it was unique, and while not as easy as using an Xbox controller, I do see the appeal.

Umm.... you cant look up and down in Doom

 

Once again, the area that youtotally ignore, that is THE problem with mouse&keyboard controls is the KEYBOARD, not the mouse!!! analog controls and mice in this day are just as good as each other as far as I'm concerned, like anything if your used to doing things one way and then try it another, it is going to seem awkward and worse until you get used to it. Except playing games with keyboard keys, that's always awkward!

Turning and looking with keys I agree is a big disadvantage, but thats not what your ment to use the keyboard for, just for movement, where there is little advantage gained from an analog input (except for Doom where mouse users can move much faster than normal players, but thats due to bad coding rather than design).

[Tyrant]

Also of course a keyboard has MANY MANY extra buttons you can map to do all the functions you want, and have them close to your fingers... which is a lot easier to remember than some weird key combination on a console controller which dosnt have enough buttons.

[Jasoco]

I had to turn off MouseLook because I can't move the mouse straight left or right and kept looking at the enemy's feet and shooting. Or shooting into the air. But it was unique, and while not as easy as using an Xbox controller, I do see the appeal.

Umm.... you cant look up and down in Doom

You can't JUMP either.

 

I said DoomLegacy. It's a totally redone DOOM engine with Quake-like effects including lighting sources and all the features those "superior" games have.

 

I got to the secret level before I finally died on the third difficulty. It takes getting used to and being able to look up and down in DOOM as well as Jump makes it more fun. I ran out of all weapons except rockets and well.. I hate using rockets in close quarters.

[Tyrant]

o.....k..... thats too weird for me... like making a lovely full 3D outdoors tactical combat game and calling it wolfenstein... or a full 3D space flight sim and calling it defender... just dosnt work in my mind, but Im beginign to go off topic here hehe.

[ZylonBane]

I had to turn off MouseLook because I can't move the mouse straight left or right

Ah. Now I think I understand your dislike for mouse-based input. So, in Windows you can't move the cursor straight across the screen?

 

Oh well, clearly you've made your mind up. I'll just leave you with some facts:

1. Auto-aim is a standard default-on feature of console FPSs, but not PC FPSs.

2. Competition-level FPS gamers never use gamepads for aiming.

 

 

And Gunstar is clearly an alien or a robot.

[Jasoco]

I had to turn off MouseLook because I can't move the mouse straight left or right

Ah. Now I think I understand your dislike for mouse-based input. So, in Windows you can't move the cursor straight across the screen?

 

Oh well, clearly you've made your mind up. I'll just leave you with some facts:

1. Auto-aim is a standard default-on feature of console FPSs, but not PC FPSs.

2. Competition-level FPS gamers never use gamepads for aiming.

 

 

And Gunstar is clearly an alien or a robot.

I notice you assume I use Windows. You've mentioned it a few times in this thread.

 

Also, you are correct. I do have a physical problem controlling a mouse straightly.

[Goochman]

I never understand 'mousing' until I played Quake and I had to actually aim to shot the damn enemies

 

I played Halo on the XBox and the controls with the pad were horrible - I couldnt get a setting that would make sense looking and moving and strafing - Mouse and Keyboard is the way to go IMHO. Maybe you should practice with Quake where there are ceilings, closed rooms and fast up close combat - You might become a mouser then

[agradeneu]

LOL Gunstar - just gotta keep the faith! Earth is a plate and moon is a piece of cheese.