kinda bad news

[opcode]

I'm not sure if Infogrames owns the legal rights to the arcade division.  They were two separate companies in the end.

 

But in this case, why would they have demanded to stop selling Castle Crisis? It's an unofficial arcade port after all... How about the repros (also arcade ports)?

 

Eduardo

[sku_u]

I'm not sure if Infogrames owns the legal rights to the arcade division.  They were two separate companies in the end.

 

But in this case, why would they have demanded to stop selling Castle Crisis? It's an unofficial arcade port after all... How about the repros (also arcade ports)?

 

Eduardo

 

AFAIK, Midway owns the legal rights to all the old Atari arcade games, so if Warlords was an Atari arcade game, I don't think they have a legal right to challenge the game. If anyone can, it would be Midway. Since it was based on the Arcade game, minus the use of the Fuji symbol, they theoretically don't have a say in the distribution of that game if the Fuji symbol is removed from the game.

[Gabriel]

I was looking forward to getting an Atari Flashback unit and the upcoming Godzilla game sequel. This news has made me go back and reevaluate that plan.

 

Not to be a stick in the mud, but even if those of us who are pissed off about this were to boycott the new Atari, would it really make any difference? How many of us are there who frequent the AtariAge shop? I think it may be optimistic to say that maybe a few hundred people buy stuff from Atari Age.

 

Now, I don't want to belittle the Atari Age shop. I love my copies of 5200 Super Pac Man, Millipede, Jr. Pac Man, and Blaster, none of which would have been possible without Atari Age. And, as soon as I get my credit cards paid off, I'm going to be ordering some homebrews to show some more support.

 

And I don't want to belittle classic gaming fans in general. For me, all of this started one day in 1999 when I started looking for a Phoenix cartridge for my Atari 2600. I discovered a whole network of people who loved classic gaming as much as I did.

 

But, when it gets down to it, how many sales will Atari lose by pissing us off? I doubt a few hundred lost sales will matter squat, and that's assuming that those are actually lost sales. I've seen many comments here on the board about not buying the "crippled" Flashback unit, because the classic gamers in question already have the games.

 

Today at work, I was forwarded an e-mail from someone in the company who was extremely excited about the Namco II TV game with Ms. Pac Man on it. These people are the audience for the Flashback. These people are not classic gamers like we are. They don't care that all the cool reproduction carts got pulled from AtariAge because of a copyright dispute. They don't even know about AtariAge. They just know they can buy this little doodad and play old games they used to love. That is the audience Atari wants and sells to, not us. They number into the hundreds of thousands, opposed to our hundreds.

 

It makes me really sad, but that's the way it is. And it makes me feel even worse that my "vote" doesn't matter in the scheme of things.

[Lost Monkey]

I'm thinking about buying a flashback unit and dragging it behind my car and then taking pictures.

 

Don't buy it... steal it...

 

If you really wanted to stick it to Infogrames, you could buy up all the Flashback units that your local Walmart, Target etc carry.. Return them all a few days later with the reason "They don't work"...

 

Yay!

[Nukey Shay]

@Gabriel

Those couple hundred frequent posters here are part of their target demographic. Do you think that it is aimed at kids of the X or Y2k generations, who mostly don't give a flying fuji for the Atari games of old?

[sku_u]

 

But, when it gets down to it, how many sales will Atari lose by pissing us off?  I doubt a few hundred lost sales will matter squat, and that's assuming that those are actually lost sales.  I've seen many comments here on the board about not buying the "crippled" Flashback unit, because the classic gamers in question already have the games.

 

When you factor Atariage, Digitpress, Slashdot, G4, and all the sites started up like Atariarchives, Atarimuseum and Atarimania, you're no longer talking about a couple of hundred people. The numbers are closer to the 10,000 mark which is about the size of a decent sale of a small budget release title.

 

I don't doubt that they only care about a certain demopraphic, but if they sever all the limbs of this hobby, all that's left is a shell that will eventually blow away with the next great windstorm.

[Student Driver]

Okay. There are a lot of things in this thread I feel like I should reply to- I apologize if some of this has already been rehashed. There seems to be a bit of confusion between trademarks and copyrights, and a lot of confusion over how intellectual property rights hold up internationally. I mean no offense by any of the following, and hope that people understand that I don't support this crack-down.

 

Copyrights. Copyrights are forms of intellectual property, typically covering works of art and/or writing; copyrights and trademarks are different. (Trademarks are an off-shoot of patent law, and cover "trade names," such as game titles, ornamental design, game design, cartridge case design, etc.) Adventure II is not a copyright violation unless it somehow reuses preexisting code from another game- the hacks and repros removed from AA, however, violate copyright laws.

 

Copyrights do not have to be vigorously defended by their owners; legal enforcement can happen sporadically and still be upheld. ANY country which subscribes to the Berne Convention or Universal Copyright Convention automatically upholds copyrights issued in any other country that is a member of that convention. The US is under both Berne and UCC- as such, most copyrights worldwide are protected in the US, and US copyrights are protected in most of the world.

 

Trademarks, as stated, are an offshoot of patent law, but with one important difference: as long as they are properly maintained, they do not expire like patents. Part of proper maintenance requires the trademark holder to vigorously defend said trademark- any violations must be dealt with. Unfortunately, this legal requirement means that Infogrames/Atari must stop anyone from using their trademarks once they become aware of them. As "mean" as this seems, it is the only legal means that Infogrames has to keep their trademarks. If they did not stop someone from using a trademark, and it came out in a court that they knew of the violation and did nothing, they would permanently lose that trademark, and it would enter the public domain.

 

US trademarks are protected and upheld in any country that is a member of the WTO or NAFTA; likewise, any trademarks from WTO or NAFTA signatory countries are upheld in the US.

 

"Adventure" in the sense of being a title for an action-oriented video game, has been claimed as a trademark for a good few decades- to maintain that trademark, Infogrames has no legal choice but to request that Adventure II change its name.

 

As mean as it seems that Atari/Infogrames is cracking down on the homebrew community, they are legally bound to do so; once they become aware of a violation, they must stop the violation in order to maintain that trademark. Now, I think they could be going about this in a much better way- such as cheaply licensing the necessary trademarks to AA or individual programmers... but everyone acts like Atari is being capricious. They're not. They have to protect their trademarks to keep them.

 

For the ideas that violations could safely be done in countries outside of the US, I'd suggest that local laws, government alliances, etc. be researched. AFAIK, every member of AA probably resides in a country that is a signatory of either Berne or UCC, meaning that anything that would violate a US copyright also violates the copyright laws of your country. Also, most, if not all of, AA members reside in a WTO or NAFTA signatory nation- which means that trademark violations in the US remain trademark violations in your countries, and vice versa.

 

To be honest, homebrew and hack authors have been in a rarified atmosphere for the last few years, and have been pushing their luck by creating unauthorized sequels or adaptations of existing properties. People wished for years that Atari's rights would belong to a company that would use them properly... well, these are the results. Welcome to 1983.

[walter_J64bit]

All come on I'm getting a 5200 so I can paly these new game that are out!

[Brad2600]

Fuck that. We're not gonna take this shit anymore!

 

If there was ever a time where the classic gaming community needed to put aside differences, the time is NOW. We must unite to fight tyranny at the hands of InfoAtari!

 

All rise, revolutionary brothers and sisters! The time to take back our hobby is NOW!

[NovaXpress]

But, when it gets down to it, how many sales will Atari lose by pissing us off? I doubt a few hundred lost sales will matter squat, and that's assuming that those are actually lost sales. I've seen many comments here on the board about not buying the "crippled" Flashback unit, because the classic gamers in question already have the games.

We can have a big effect of InfoAtari's bottom line. I'm already starting to take the protest beyond out community and to the mainstream gamers. All we have to do is spread the story -- "a French company buys some logos and pretends to be Atari. Then they shut down all these independent programmers who'd devoted their time and labor to the hobby. They even shut down games which they don't have the rights to!" This is a scumbag company and we can indeed get the masses to go along with our boycott. If Atari sees even a few percent dip in sales we will cost them millions.

 

You all now see what corporate gaming is all about. InfoAtari isn't happy with just selling you some classic gaming product, they also want to prevent you from spending your classic gaming dollar anywhere else. I'd been saying all along that losing ROMs was just the beginning. Any independent who "negotiates" with them is going to get chewed up and swallowed. The only possible action we can take to stop this is to make InfoAtari's sales suffer.

 

I've got a few ideas for publicizing the boycott. If any of you also feel like getting aggressive with this issue, let's talk it over and make our plans.

[Brad2600]

As in boycott, do you mean NOT buying anything put out by InfoAtari?

 

Does this include things that I already own? I don't really like Driver 3, and since it's got an Info-Atari logo on it, I plan to sell it very soon anyway.

[NovaXpress]

None of us need a lesson in copyights. We've been dealing with P2P issues for a long time now and we've all come to our own ethical conclusion.

 

The only reason that InfoAtari is screwing with us is because they want to make all the classic gaming money. Forget about the titles they did indeed inherit, they're even pulling the "KC Munchkin" technique of killing off games which merely resemble theirs. It's as wrong today as it was then. They are not just out to protect their copyrights, thay could do that without taking our games away. InfoAtari is trying to shut down independent classic game producers. They are the enemy of this hobby.

 

The way that we 2600 heads handle this will set the satge for future generations of gamers. We have to win this fight for the art of video gaming.

[NovaXpress]

In a boycott, past purchases don't matter at all. Even buying a used game wouldn't add to InfoAtari's bottom line. The point of a boycott is to not give said company a single additional dollar and to encourage other gamers to do the same.

 

I'll be making the rounds at Omaha's game stores this afternoon. And at every stop I'll be telling people to boycott anything with the Atari logo. Start spreading the word.

[Schmutzpuppe]

I can understand that pseudo Atari want to recapture the second largest upcoming market beside china.

It's a schame....

[Brad2600]

If someone could put into words, what InfoAtari is trying to do now, I'd be glad to print up posters urging a boycott to pass out at the local gaming stores.

[Dutchman2000]

FYI...

 

Infogrames/Atari owns all the games rights from June 27, 1972 to July 2, 1984. This includes all arcade titles that were released or in development during that time period. So they do own the rights to Tempest and Warlords.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Now, I think they could be going about this in a much better way- such as cheaply licensing the necessary trademarks to AA or individual programmers... but everyone acts like Atari is being capricious.  They're not.  They have to protect their trademarks to keep them.

Ok, I think that was more than clear. IMO, while I don't like what is happening right now, Infogrames had no choice at all. They act like any other company would do, though maybe a bit more sensitive.

 

And I have the hope that there are negotiations about cheap licensing are going on right now.

[Atariboy]

"nfogrames/Atari owns all the games rights from June 27, 1972 to July 2, 1984. This includes all arcade titles that were released or in development during that time period. So they do own the rights to Tempest and Warlords."

 

Midway & Infogrames own the rights to arcade titles from before that date. Unless something has changed in the past year or two...

[mos6507]

I think that this will blow over in a little bit of time.  The only people that I have seen get excited about retro-gaming is (no offence here) us older people that have played these games when they were released or shortly there-after and can appreciate them.  Once the yuppies slow there buying of retro related items, then the corperate lawyers will forget about this scene.  

 

Case in point, I went to the local gamestop and picked up a copy of Gradius V (the game rocks!) and when I went back and talked with the 18 year old kid behind the counter about the game, he said he couldn't play those type of games (I made him try r-type final when it came out) because it frustrates him.  I think we should just chill out a little bit and wait for this to blow over.

 

There is one good thing that has come out of all of this.  Eduardo "opcode" the new badboy of retro gaming    

 

-mike

 

Why should we want to keep this a secret society?

 

Frankly, I like the idea of retrogaming becoming mainstream, so people like us aren't treated like weirdos anymore for being into old games.

 

I don't like the reverse logic of hoping that this just turns out to be a "fad" and passes over.

 

I'm not defending Infogrames, in fact I think what they are doing SUCKS, but I think if anything this forces homebrewers to focus more on originality, which is a good thing in the long-run.

 

Infogrames isn't going to be able to stop people from selling 100% original titles like Oystron, and ultimately the hobby needs more original game ideas to keep it healthy.

 

As for revenge, there are at least two more 2600 units on the horizon, one from Ken Love's group, and at least one system (probably multiple from what I've heard) coming out of the 2600-on-a-chip. The latter will accept any and all games downloaded over USB. This will cut into Flashback sales depending on timing and distribution channels.

 

I suggest people rally around the 2600-on-a-chip-based systems, support them, hype them, make them a success, and avoid the Flashback unit.

[mos6507]

And I have the hope that there are negotiations about cheap licensing are going on right now.

 

I don't think big companies like this are capable of cheap licensing along the lines of what Bridgestone Multimedia cut for us on the Starpath catalog.

 

It costs them more in legal fees to draft up the paperwork than they would ever make back in licensing fees.

 

They aren't going to cut any deals that I can see.

[mos6507]

InfoAtari is trying to shut down independent classic game producers

 

 

That's only true if the only independent classic game producers are capable of writing are sequels or ports of pre-existing Atari titles!!!

 

Now certainly if homebrewers knew what would happen they probably wouldn't have done these sorts of games so they really got the rug pulled out from under them, which sucks. (I'm now waiting for the ghost of Exidy to bug me about Death Derby) But there is no legal basis for Atari to stop homebrewers in general from writing games on Atari hardware. In fact Hasbro Atari released a statement years ago officially sanctioning development on all legacy Atari hardware that had previously required digital signatures/licensing from Atari (i.e. 7800/Jag).

 

Older consoles can not be locked out since they never had lockout hardware. People are now free to use tools derived from once-proprietary Atari Corp utilities to sign and encrypt carts for the 7800 and Jag. (Before that you had things like 4-Play brute-force cracking the Jag to encrypt Battlesphere--not necessary anymore.) The 2600, 5200, and 8-bit machines all saw unrestricted 3rd party development (although in the early days they tried unsuccessfully to legally shut down the 2600 stuff).

 

So no need to shut down all development.

[mos6507]

I'm not sure if Infogrames owns the legal rights to the arcade division.  They were two separate companies in the end.

 

But in this case, why would they have demanded to stop selling Castle Crisis? It's an unofficial arcade port after all... How about the repros (also arcade ports)?

 

Eduardo

 

AFAIK, Midway owns the legal rights to all the old Atari arcade games, so if Warlords was an Atari arcade game, I don't think they have a legal right to challenge the game. If anyone can, it would be Midway. Since it was based on the Arcade game, minus the use of the Fuji symbol, they theoretically don't have a say in the distribution of that game if the Fuji symbol is removed from the game.

 

 

 

 

I think Atari Corp. got all the rights to the HOME ports of arcade games, which gets muddy when you consider emulations that run actual coinop ROMs. But the castle crisis would qualify as a port.

[NovaXpress]

I don't think Atari should be able to shut down "me too" games like Castle Crisis or Haunted House 2, I also thought they shouldn't have been able to shut down KC Muchkin back in the old days.

 

Is Atari going after all the other clones such as Java applets and mini-games on websites? A lot of them are based on old Atari ideas as well. And will that not lead us to the point where entire genres such as FPS games are squatted on by a single company?

 

Us hobbyists nurtured the classic gaming community and turned it into something that a new Atari could profit from. They are rewarding our community by destroying it.

[opcode]

InfoAtari is trying to shut down independent classic game producers

 

That's only true if the only independent classic game producers are capable of writing are sequels or ports of pre-existing Atari titles!!!

 

So no need to shut down all development.

 

Ok.... Did you notice Pac-Man Arcade, Space Invaders Arcade and almost all the others hacks are gone? Did you notice those games were best sellers? Have you even realised those simple hacks were important tites cause they helped to finance more "sofisticated" releases.

The idea is, not everyone here have the same tastes. Some of us like repros, some like hacks, some like ports and some like completelly original titles. Even in the later case, some people like their original games packaged like standard Atari cartridges, with Atari style boxes and label.

Now we have fewer options. It means Albert can risk less, which probably means less games will have boxes or good looking labels. Maybe just a few homebrews with greater appeal will even get released from now on. I know that because this is the way things work to me. If it wasn't for Space Invaders Collection, there would be Sky Jaguar or any other MSX port. So if Taito had prevented me of releasing Space Invaders Collection I wouldn't have released any game at all.

 

Eduardo

[Henry Lee]

What kind of a prehistoric world we live in. Atari/Infogrames Enemy. Us= good, they=evil. With all respect. Atari/Infogrames is a company no wiser, or any different than other company who's purpose is to sell goods, make money evolve, pay taxes to the govRRRement and make the economy go round. We are part of that.

These issues Copyright/trademarke are not new. Remember the software piracy starting back in the 80-90's one of the reasons which killed the Amiga, there was real programmers who were suffering behind that, there were software piracy on Atari ST, PC, Apple up until now. Then the coming of the internet, Napster etc. Music copyright issues etc..

Don't get me wrong Repro carts, Hacks and Homebrews are way far from that and is our pride of loving a part of history and preserving it. But shit happens. I think its a sad but normal thing. I don't think Atari/Infogrames is thinking: I am going to screw these classic gamers. Probably their "wise" business concillor told them to do so because there is a retro trend is coming and they are going to profit of it, agin like just many cold but legal company, I won't name, there is hundred, and it will be part of another discussion. Its just a trend, it will pass. In a meanwhile, dedicaded old-school programmers will make more homebrews that hacks. You never know, if by a slight chance as an exagerationsthis retro thing stays longer, ity will encourage programmers to form third parties, making games, getting paid and artists making boxes etc. Like Elvis, J. Cash, The Ramones, classics will stay classics. The way classic gamers and collectors remember and love Atari with its first gems and its dissapointing Tramiels. Classic gamers and collectors will remember Atari/Infogrames in a couple of years, but be more preoccupied by making rare and PRICELESS gems like Koffi, Castle Crisis, Pac-man Arcade etc.