Thoughts on GTA:SA

[AncillaryDrone]

Had I known this type of mission was included I wouldn't have even bothered with GTA:SA to start off with.

 

Wow. I've never played DDR myself but this mission didnt prove difficult for me. In fact I did it my first try without even really trying... and believe me I'm no Game God. It sounds like you're getting too worked up over it and that's screwing up your concentration. Are you sure there's nobody you can get to get past this part for you? It really doesnt take perfection to pass it, I remember getting a few moves wrong and it let me pass it anyway. I tell you man, there's some missions in this game that will make you pray for some more DDR missions. The racing missions really drive me up the wall. The trick for me is persistance. I just do it over and over (and over) until I get passed it.

[kisrael]

The racing missions really drive me up the wall.  The trick for me is persistance.  I just do it over and over (and over) until I get passed it.

Actually, if you retried things "honestly" rather than saving and reloading, it might get slightly easier...that's how they say the game works.

 

Persistence usually pays off...even that stupid RC Supply Line mission became easier after a few tries, and when I really focussed on getting fast kills.

[Stingray]

Racing missions are what I'm all about. Some of them take multiple tries, but I love playing them. I think I'm just going to sell my copy of this game and get GT4 when it comes out. I'm damn sure there's no dancing in that one.

 

-S

[Stingray]

 I don't mean to be that offensive but people are starting to think you're pretty skill deficient...I mean there are some REALLY challenging missions later. But if you think the DDR style stuff is so tough, maybe you can get a nearby 12 year old to beat it for you.

 

No offense taken. I hate this mission and it made me stop playing the game a few days ago (what's the point in playing it if it's not any fun?). I'm not even trying anymore. The game ceased being fun for me so I stoped playing it. Hell I'd love to play those "really challenging missions" that you referenced as they are probably GTA style missions.

 

-S

[+Random Terrain]

Racing missions are what I'm all about. Some of them take multiple tries, but I love playing them. I think I'm just going to sell my copy of this game and get GT4 when it comes out. I'm damn sure there's no dancing in that one.

I mostly like missions where I have to kill people. I can do without dancing and racing. I don't mind some racing, but I'm mostly interested in exploring, interacting with people in a more realistic way, stealing stuff, assassinations, mass murder, and all of the cool little stuff you guys mentioned about the game that make it seem more real.

 

My life is challenging enough. I don't need more challenges and hassles that are beyond my abilities or that are just not interesting to me. Seems like many people out there in Internet land have a goal which is to get to the end of a game as fast as possible. Faster, faster, now, now! Find and do everything in the game to get 100% but don't enjoy the game world, just plow through the game as if it's just one more task given to you at work or school. Fun is for pussies. Don't stop to smell the roses, just get to the end perfectly as fast as possible or die trying.

 

I want to have a game where there is a lot of stuff to do, and although there might be a story, if you can't do a job, you should be able to skip it and the story changes based on that. You can always get to the 'end' of the game no matter how unskilled you are, but there is no lame "do it over and over until you master a challenge." That's not fun to me. It has nothing to do with what a real game should be like. For example, most popular board games flow from beginning to end. If you make a bad move when playing games such as Battleship, Checkers, Parcheesi, Sorry, Yahtzee or Chess, there is no "do it again 30 times until you get it right." You just play, win or lose. Computer games should be the same way. There should never be a time where you have to keep repeating any challenge until you get it right in any game. The challenge should be able to be skipped if you want or it should become much easier depending on your preference settings. If you hate real games and like repeating the same mission 50 times until you get it right, the game could give you that experience too.

 

I think I need to make a new page at my web site about this stuff so I will quit posting about it at AtariAge. I've been meaning to do it for years. Maybe I'll finally do it now.

[Stingray]

 

 

I want to have a game where there is a lot of stuff to do, and although there might be a story, if you can't do a job, you should be able to skip it and the story changes based on that.

 

This makes more sense than anything I have ever read on this forum. I've long thought the same thing. If a task in a game proves impossible for an individual often they will just stop playing the game and play something else. The point of video games should be to enjoy them and have fun, not to get angry and frustrated. Here's hoping that future games will be set up just the way you suggest.

 

-S

[kisrael]

I was thinking about "realism" in terms of games like GTA...

 

There's some kind of sweet spot that I think the series has always found...too much realism and it becomes a drag, too much of a hassle, too much like real life (I was worried GTA:SA was going too far this way with its stats, but it turns out the player doesn't really need that much Sims-like care and feeding) Too little realism, and you lose a lot of the appeal of this style game, it becomes too abstract, not enough of a "wouldn't it be cool if *I* could do....."

 

The idea of skippable missions is interesting. A somewhat related, though much more 'hard core" idea would be to only give you ONE chance to do missions, and if you fail, you have to live with the story that results. Very few games do this, at least not without allowing use of a save/restore system. (I used that pretty heavily in certain times playing through DOOM II...and even GTA:VC come to think of it) In some ways the macho ONE CHANCE idea is more like how Battleship, Checkers, etc works...no take backs.

 

I'd say there are 4 types of "rewards" a game developer has to hand out: basic content (story), interactive content (cool stuff to do, divided in GTAs case into specific mission assignments and then just cool features, like new vehicles, weapons, and locations), and general egoboost. I think there are relatively few modern players who would be in it just for the egoboost...so a developer has to leave some of the content as rewards.

 

Anyway, just some thoughts. I think GTA is relatively forgiving, mission wise. Supposedly it tweaks missions to make them easier the more times you fail (w/o resorting to previous save, presumably) and maybe that could be amplified, and enough failures bring you to a Mission Skipped option. So someone who was bound and determined not to skip wouldn't be forced to do so.

 

Still, there are some people like me...I know I would take too much advantage of Mission Skip and maybe regret in some ways...

 

Actually, you know what GTA *REALLY* needs? Mission *SELECT*. I'd love a menu where I could replay any mission in the game, either at my characters "current" status, or at what it was back when I finally took on and beat the mission. I'm sure testers have that ability, it's too bad they don't leave it in as a "cheat".

[IronMongeR]

After reading this thread it seems as though many people here want to simply cheat their way through the game without any repercussions and skip any missions that are challenging.

 

Sure some of the missions are a pain, but with persistance they are all eventually fairly simple. It usually comes down to one of the following: Learning a route, getting used to a certain vehicle, learning the position of enemies or preparing by stocking up on armour and ammo.

 

As for the dance mission, just press the buttons as the symbols go through the middle. If memory serves correct they didn't move at lightning speed.

[+Random Terrain]

Sure some of the missions are a pain, but with persistence they are all eventually fairly simple.  It usually comes down to one of the following:  Learning a route, getting used to a certain vehicle, learning the position of enemies or preparing by stocking up on armour and ammo.

And that's sad because that kind of lame gameplay hasn't changed since the 1980s. It just doesn't qualify as a game in my book when you have to replay the same thing until you get it right. Sure, I'll buy it in a few months because I want to explore the world and have fun with the new things they added to the game, but that doesn't mean I approve of that 'die and remember' style of game design. Related quotes:

 

http://www.randomterrain.com/gamedesign/ra...randomness.html

[kisrael]

Sure some of the missions are a pain, but with persistence they are all eventually fairly simple.  It usually comes down to one of the following:  Learning a route, getting used to a certain vehicle, learning the position of enemies or preparing by stocking up on armour and ammo.

And that's sad because that kind of lame gameplay hasn't changed since the 1980s.

Certainly it has. The worlds can be a lot richer now and its made qualitiative changes to what's possible.

It just doesn't qualify as a game in my book when you have to replay the same thing until you get it right.

In GTA many of the missions have more than one way of solving 'em. For instance, after I beat it I found out that this one mission was supposed to pretty challenging with stealth, lots of heavily armed enemies and a knock 'em sock 'em vehicle chase. I swooped in with the jet pack I had earned and turned it into a quick smash and grab.

Sure, I'll buy it in a few months because I want to explore the world and have fun with the new things they added to the game, but that doesn't mean I approve of that 'die and remember' style of game design.

GTA is really not a good poster child for your arguments, because so many people have so much fun just using the world itself as a mayhem toybox.

 

Take a look at this GTA:VC FAQ:

http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/ps2/file/gr...vice_city_h.txt

the section "Fun Things To Do" and "Challenges" is great...missions people made up for themselves that live in the game engine.

 

Right now, though, it's a ferociously difficult task to get the computer to generate the story content that a lot of people find compelling. And much harder now when gamers like to see dialog and/or cutscenes than in, say, the old "Murder on The Zinderneuf" days.

[+Random Terrain]

Sure some of the missions are a pain' date=' but with persistence they are all eventually fairly simple. It usually comes down to one of the following: Learning a route' date=' getting used to a certain vehicle, learning the position of enemies or preparing by stocking up on armour and ammo.[/quote'']

And that's sad because that kind of lame gameplay hasn't changed since the 1980s.

Certainly it has. The worlds can be a lot richer now and its made qualitiative changes to what's possible.

I'm just talking about the 'die and remember' part, not the changes that are obvious to everyone.

 

Right now' date=' though' date=' it's a ferociously difficult task to get the computer to generate the story content that a lot of people find compelling. And much harder now when gamers like to see dialog and/or cutscenes than in, say, the old "Murder on The Zinderneuf" days.[/quote'']

I hate cut scenes and other times where the gameplay comes to a complete stop and you are forced to sit and watch characters talk for a few minutes. For example, games such as Dino Crisis piss me off because I just want to play the game. I don't want an interactive movie where I sit there listening to poor voice acting instead of playing the game. If there must be dialog in a game or even cut scenes, I want the ability to skip it if I've heard it, and if possible, I want to be able to do something while I listen. 'Interactive' shouldn't mean that you get to do something whenever the game designer decides you've sat there long enough twiddling your thumbs. Don't make me wait for anything other than loading. Of course, GTA games aren't usually that bad, but taking me out of the game to watch something breaks the reality I felt I was part of.

[kemsted]

Has anybody found or played the two-plaer free roams yet? Its a blast, me and my friend spent about 3 hours straight just messing around with the cops or getting in big shootouts with gangs and cops.

[Cobra Commander]

I spent all morning gambling (rainy day), I turned $300,000 into $1.2 billion, and no the the dollars didnt rool over after $999 million. I did it mostly playing roulette, playing alot opened up the higher limit tables. I eventualy wanted longer ods so of to the ITB and $9.3 million on a 11 or 12 to 1 horse, I glad I won the first time, cause $9.3million at $10,000 incraments is like 930 button pushes (dont have turbo function) and it took about 5min for the money to stop rolling. dont think I have the stamina for a trillion though.

[Cobra Commander]

oops bad math ist only $112 million.

[Cobra Commander]

I mean $120 million.

[Brad2600]

The missions are ok but I primarily play GTA games as way to release years of pent up anger and frustration.

 

GTA is mainly the reason why I haven't put anyone in the hospital....yet...

[kisrael]

It just doesn't qualify as a game in my book when you have to replay the same thing until you get it right.

Well, it's definately a challenge to make up random content where the parameters of the randomness aren't blatantly obvious to a human player. .. what games do you think do that well?

 

GTA is really not a good poster child for your arguments, because so many people have so much fun just using the world itself as a mayhem toybox.

If you have to beat certain 'die and remember' challenges to have access to the whole world, it does fit.

Eh, sort of. It sounds like your being kind of "fascist". I mean I see that you get really ticked about strict mission content blocking chaotic content, but still, it's a very plentiful source of chaotic content. Like, going back to your randomness page...I'd say a typical GTA mission is at least as "random" as a pinball game...the enemies react to the player, so if you do something different, the enemies will be behaving differently. ANd a player never acts the same way twice...

[+Random Terrain]

It just doesn't qualify as a game in my book when you have to replay the same thing until you get it right.

Well, it's definately a challenge to make up random content where the parameters of the randomness aren't blatantly obvious to a human player. .. what games do you think do that well?

Although I haven't played every game out there, they seem hard to find if they exist at all. I don't remember any good examples at this time, but I might remember later if I actually played any. I have a crappy, random memory that comes and goes.

 

GTA is really not a good poster child for your arguments, because so many people have so much fun just using the world itself as a mayhem toybox.

If you have to beat certain 'die and remember' challenges to have access to the whole world, it does fit.

Eh, sort of. It sounds like your being kind of "fascist". I mean I see that you get really ticked about strict mission content blocking chaotic content, but still, it's a very plentiful source of chaotic content. Like, going back to your randomness page...I'd say a typical GTA mission is at least as "random" as a pinball game...the enemies react to the player, so if you do something different, the enemies will be behaving differently. ANd a player never acts the same way twice...

Well, as long as they are reacting in new ways, that's not so bad. I still can't wait until they make a GTA game that flows better. The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind is one of my favorite games at this time, but it's still not where I hoped games would be by now.

[kisrael]

Well, it's definately a challenge to make up random content where the parameters of the randomness aren't blatantly obvious to a human player. .. what games do you think do that well?

Although I haven't played every game out there, they seem hard to find if they exist at all. I don't remember any good examples at this time, but I might remember later if I actually played any. I have a crappy, random memory that comes and goes.

There's some joke here about your random and memory here but I'm not sure what it is.

 

Anyway, your randomness page references:

Bad: Pac-Man w/ it's patterns (didn't Ms Pac-Man have more randomness? But I don't think this is so bad...again, there's only patterns if you play the exact same way, the ghosts react to the player. To a 'normal' player it can be a different game each time...I mean, not that many people play w/ patterns)

 

Good: simple board game relative to most computer/console games available now

 

Good: Pinball

 

Bad: Pac-Man, Mortal Kombat

 

Good: Choose Your Own Adventure Books (which makes me think about how I would backtrack all the time and try to find all the content...(I think there was one book that had a utopia result...and no pages that linked to it) I think one thing is game makers don't want to have too much story content that people will never see...)

 

Bad: Activision Games w/ set patterns. vs Atari and Imagic

 

Good: Adventure Level 3

 

Good: Tetris

 

On a related note, I hope voice synthesis (as opposed to sampling) gets better, allowing wingmen an NPCs to marry w/ real AI...

[kisrael]

My current "Thoughts on GTA:SA" --

FINISHED!

I don't know where everyone else is in this, but feel free to ask me for help on any story mission...I'm a so-so gamer so maybe I'll have an idea.

[Chrispy]

I am also finished.

I completed it a couple hours ago.........with codes which I had a fun time using.

[kisrael]

I am also finished.

I completed it a couple hours ago.........with codes which I had a fun time using.

 

Code free baby...though I used all the scam strategies I could.

 

Hint: fire engine missions aren't as tough as VC (nor as easy as 3) and probably worth it.

 

Ditto Ambulance, which is darn easy at Angel Pine (though for both fire and ambulance, I had a weird habit of hitting mission cancel by mistake)

 

Not sure about Vigilante.

 

Maxxing out your money and gun skills, both easy and probably worth it.

 

Don't worry about respect. And don't worry about not claiming neighborhoods...there's a time when you'll have no choice.

 

I have pretty much perfected my neighborhood takeover technique. Let me know if you want to hear it :-)

[+Random Terrain]

For those who have finished, please come back to this thread in a couple of weeks or months and tell us if you have gone back to the game to 'hang out' or goof around in that GTA world some more.

[Chadivision]

I found a strange glitch in the game.

 

I went into a Cluckin' Bell in San Fierro. I jumped behind the counter and beat up the guys in the chicken suits, then I jumped back onto the counter to leave, but I got stuck. I tried to get free, but I couldn't get back onto the floor.

 

I kept trying to get free and somehow I fell off of the world and kept falling. There was no level geometry at all. It was just black. I fell for about 30 or 45 seconds, then I hit a white floor and died. The moral of the story is...

 

Fast food really will kill you.

[Brad2600]

I just can't get into it enough to actually want to complete any missions.

 

It would be nice though.