Cruise Missile - Prototype ! on ebay?

[MattyXB]

LOL, everyone overbid everyone.

You overbid me too Fish, and I overbid you. So where is the probleme. The one who have more money win. Or I want some games not and let you win.

[Tempest]

Dukes of Hazzard shouldn't be considered a prototype at all since it was mass produced with actual chips and not EPROMs. It's just an unreleased game that happened to be mass produced. Off Your Rocker falls into this category as well.

 

I'm with John on this one, unless I see EPROMs on a proto board it's not a prototype to me.

 

Tempest

[Marco(2)]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tempest:

Dukes of Hazzard shouldn't be considered a prototype at all since it was mass produced with actual chips and not EPROMs. It's just an unreleased game that happened to be mass produced. Off Your Rocker falls into this category as well.

 

I'm with John on this one, unless I see EPROMs on a proto board it's not a prototype to me.

---

 

What interests me more: what is the meaning of your statement? You make it sound as if an early version of Moon Patrol (with Eproms on a proto board) is more interesting than Off Your Rocker. I take it that's not why you are making the distinction?

 

Cheers,

 

Marco

[Tempest]

I'm trying to define what I think constitutes a prototype. Whether or not a game is interesting has nothing to do with it.

 

An early version of Moon Patrol with EPROMs on a proto board means it a prototype even if it's a same as the released version (Moon Patrol 214 BTW). Off Your Rocker which was a mass produced game but not released by the company (Amiga in this case) is not a prototype no matter how "interesting" it is.

 

I'm not quite sure what your getting at.

 

Tempest

[Rick Weis]

quote:

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Originally posted by jahfish:

ggggrrrrrrrrrr..rrick! you did that awfull thing to me? i thought we were friends

 

---

 

Jahfish.... WE ARE FRIENDS!!!! but if i remember right i had the bid down first.. you were tring to outbid my bid...

 

Take care,

 

Rick

[Marco(2)]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tempest:

I'm trying to define what I think constitutes a prototype. Whether or not a game is interesting has nothing to do with it. I'm not quite sure what your getting at.

---

 

I'm trying to find out what the sense is of including certain games and excluding others. Is it mere a matter of words, or is there more to it?

 

If it's the first, there isn't much sense in this discussion, IMHO. If it's the second, I'm only trying to figure out what it is

 

Cheers,

 

Marco

[Tempest]

I only include games that come on EPROMs and on an EPROM board, and were not ment for public use beyond testing (ie. they weren't selling them to the public for permenent use).

 

Tempest

[Marco(2)]

Yes, I understand. But *why* is it important for you to make the distinction?

 

Or, put differently, what is the consequence of labelling Off your Rocker as an "unreleased game" and naming a PAL Eprom version of Pengo a "prototype"?

 

Cheers,

 

Marco

[slapdash]

Sorry to jump in late, but I'm pretty sure Marco is right about Ultravision being a reseller, not a producer -- their console, which never sold here, is just a Funvision console (which apparently was sold) rebadged.

 

On the other hand, who originated Karate and Condor Attack?

[cx2k]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marco:

I guess it's a matter of definition. Intrigueing consequence of your definition is that, say, an early "prototype" of Moon Patrol is more interesting than the "just unreleased game" Donald Duck. Bit counter-intuitive (people like "prototypes" better).

 

However, if Donald Duck is the only game that falls into the category "unreleased non-prototype" there's little reason to make an issue out of this

---

 

Marco,

 

I never said one was more interesting than the other. I just feel that many people may be misled when they're on ebay and winning a Best Quadrun proto that is really a production board. The current Cruise Missile proto auction is another example. Some poor guy who doesn't know any better will bid on it thinking he's getting his first proto while meanwhile he's getting shafted.

 

I don't know a lot about NES stuff but what about Cheetahmen 2? This game was supposedly unreleased but I don't think anyone would classify it as a proto. What's the difference between that and a epoxy-blob Donald Duck? Both were meant to be sold, but one was a little further along in that it had a case and box done.

 

I agree that people key in on the word prototype, which is one of the reasons this bothers me. I feel many people don't really know what they're buying.

 

John

[jahfish]

i'll have to defend tempest now ... i think it does matter, when it comes to paying those carts, for example ....

 

other thing is ... it has a special value to us collectors if it's the programmers who had their hands on the cart, writing an exact date on it, and not just a best worker assembling them in wrong cases.

[jahfish]

for those who care .....

 

http://atarian.topcities.com/pics/Donald.JPG

Donald's Loaner cart

[jahfish]

and for those who don't care ....

 

 

http://atarian.topcities.com/pics/Duck.jpg

Donald's Best cart

[MattyXB]

I have only the second cart, but is better then nothing. And for me its a real Prototype.

[Tempest]

Jah I'm not getting anything when I click on those links. Are they down?

 

I think John summed up my feelings on this. I hate to see people get what they think is a prototype and find out that it's either a copy or just a production chip with a cleaver story.

 

I have a guy on AIM who's desprate to get his first prototype, and everytime he sees one of these auctions he asks me if it's real and I have to break it to him their not prototypes. People who have done this for awhile know how to spot a fake (though it's really hard sometimes), but for the beginner it's almost impossible to know whats what. I don't want to see someone find out their prize prototype is really just a copy in a Moon Patrol case. That happened to me along time ago and it wasn't any fun, trust me.

 

But then again what really constitiutes a prototype? If someome makes copies of the EPROMs and puts them on a proto board is it a real prototype? Most people would say no even though it's virtually identical to the real thing. To me theres a difference between something that came out of someones basement and something that came out of Atari's labs even if it can't be seen by the human eye.

 

Tempest

[jahfish]

i don't understand why the pict are not working for everyone, it's probably because of the free server .... but it's the two variations you talk about, tempest.

 

loaner cart and moon patrol case.

 

i see things exactly the same way.... i'd be really pissed to get a production board if i payed 150$ for a "prototype" that is actually not from the 80ies, but just a 90ies retro product based on 80ies material ...

 

did best print these waranty stickers themselves? why does it seem to me that i've never seen any authentic atari product with this sticker?

 

i wouldn't wonder if it is like that .....

[MattyXB]

Yes, you must copy the link and paste them in your addressfield.

 

It don't work, when you click on them. But copy work good.

[Marco(2)]

John and Matt,

 

I can see that you would want to keep the Best Quadrun and Cruise Missile 'prototype' currently on ebay out of your definition of a proto, but I still cannot see the sense of leaving out (games like) Dukes of Hazzard, Donald Duck, and Off your Rocker, just because they don't have Eproms.

 

But if the two Masters agree, I guess I'm just being stubborn

 

Cheers,

 

Marco

 

 

PS: I guess it's not about value (alone), but in case of the Best Quadrun I think the value for a widely available - fake - lab loaner and a - real - production run board don't differ too much

[Tempest]

I don't count them as prototypes, I count them as games unreleased by the company they were made by. I guess it's the same reason I don't CubiColor as a prototype.

 

Tempest

[Marco(2)]

Matt,

 

We're running in circles. I ask you about the reason and meaning of not calling them prototypes and you say "I don't count them as prototypes".

 

As John said, peopley key in to the word prototype. It's something special, more special than an unreleased game. He says he makes the strict distinction because he wants to protect newbie buyers from spending too much money on something which is not what they think it is. That mainly applies to examples like a Best Quadrun and that Cruise Missile thingie.

 

My question as to the sense of your definition now concentrates on the games that are widely known as prototype: Dukes, Donald, Off your Rocker, others? but do not fall into your narrow definition.

 

So, why don't you want to call them prototypes. And I'm not expecting an answer that's either "because they aren't" or "because they don't have Eproms".

 

I hope you understand what I'm asking. If not, it must be my English or something. In that case, perhaps someone else can help out here.

 

Cheers,

 

Marco

[Atarimania]

Hi everybody !

I have a question concerning the prototypes/unreleased games : I am looking for boxes scan / photos of these games (dumbo, duke hazard...) because I would like to create boxed for my 'protos' (or unreleased games )

Where can I find it ???

Thanks

Franck

[Tempest]

No it's not your English, it's just hard to explain....

 

The reason I don't count Off Your Rocker, Dukes of Hazzard, and Cubicolor as prototypes is because they were actually produced normally (on chips) with the intention of being sold. All the research and game development had been finished and the gameplay and code finalized. They were made and ready to be sold to the public, but for one reason or another were unreleased.

 

To me a prototype means the game is:

 

1. On EPROMs on a proto board

2. Different from the final release (WIP), or the final version made for the purposes of evaluation (i.e.. they were fairly sure it was the final version, but it still could be changed)

3. Came directly from the development lab

4. Was not intended to be sold to the public in it's current form (i.e. the game was still being evaluated)

 

The games I mentioned don't meet this criteria one way or the other. I may have a pretty narrow view on what makes a prototype, but I think most proto collectors would agree with me.

 

Tempest

[jahfish]

and i'll add another difference:

 

a cart sold only 7 years ago for 30$ (even 1 or 2 years ago for dukes, it's still in the list as unavailable) just can't be as rare as a prototype comming out the lab, with probably a different game version on it.

 

i think as long as it's unclear how much of the production boards exists, you can't ask too much.

 

when you go to asia to have stuff like that produced, you don't do it for 100 or 500 boards. ususally 10.000s are produced. specially when it comes from atari. remember they have been producing more than a million for some titles .... i am sure 10.000 would have been 'swallowed' for the promotion and magazines, reviewers, ...

 

now if someone gets a single board from an ex-employee, and all the remaining ones were either destroyed or thrown in between the et carts in the desert, then for sure this is a pretty rare item ....

 

i think quadrun is one of the very few unreleased games that also have a complete box, so surely it will be more expensive than a loaner cart used for promotion.

 

anyway, we shouldn't get into too much details about the value, because then you would also have to bring in the geographic factor, where you are.

 

if a regular german collector takes a DP guide in his hands, he finds out that many carts are cheaper than what he payed in germany, and that many local pirates have higher prices than what he payed. it doesn't necessairely makes sence ....

 

way harder for the brasilian carts: me, rick, marco and some other always ruin ourselves on these, compared to the prices the brasilians have to pay. then again, for how weird they are the prices are still ok, when you think of ebay.de auctions where bidders freak out sometimes .....

 

in japan, the prices are crazy too. then again, that konami unreleased game, apparently released there (don't remember the name), was actually cheap for beiing the first one that ever seemed to appear in our gaming community. i am sure it would have gone up to 500$ at least on ebay.com

 

i am sure that you won't get this one under 100$ before matt, marc, rick, ian, frank and some others have this title in their collection

[Marco(2)]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tempest:

No it's not your English, it's just hard to explain.... .

---

 

I appreciate you're trying to bear with me on this - I know I can be a real pain

 

quote:

---

The reason I don't count Off Your Rocker, Dukes of Hazzard, and Cubicolor as prototypes is because they were actually produced normally (on chips) with the intention of being sold. All the research and game development had been finished and the gameplay and code finalized. They were made and ready to be sold to the public, but for one reason or another were unreleased.

 

To me a prototype means the game is:

 

1. On EPROMs on a proto board

2. Different from the final release (WIP), or the final version made for the purposes of evaluation (i.e.. they were fairly sure it was the final version, but it still could be changed)

3. Came directly from the development lab

4. Was not intended to be sold to the public in it's current form (i.e. the game was still being evaluated)

---

 

This I understand, it's a clear definition of a prototype. Please note that everything what I write below is based on the assumption that to be a prototype a game has to meet every single one of these criteria. If this assumption is wrong, I'll have to write a new reply

 

Now relate your definition to the following statement on your website:

 

quote

Many of these so called "Prototypes" are really just preview copies given to magazines to try out and review before a game was released, these Lab Loaners are exactly the same as the released game. But occasionally a collector is lucky enough to get a true Work In Progress, a game that was in development and not ready for release. These WIP can range from the uninteresting (just missing music or sound) to the extraordinary (different graphics or gameplay). Every now and then a collector is truly blessed when he finds a prototype of an unreleased game. These prototypes are valued above all others due to their unique status, and finding one is the dream of every collector.

 

There's two things that I find interesting about this.

 

The first is factual. I have a lab loaner of Tempest. Clearly not something that was ready and supposed to be released. It appears to me that cerainly not all lab loaners are exactly the same as the released game. Perhaps "lab loaner" in your statement isn't the correct word? If you look back at your definition of a prototype, it appears to be lacking the possibility of games that never made it to the final release state.

 

The second is subjective. Labelling a game a proto, or not, to you is clearly more than just semantics. Protos are the best thing on earth - well, game-wise, that is

Now back to the games that never made it to the released status. Does it really matter what physical form Lord of the Rings is in? My guess is it's probably not an EPROM nor a prototype board or case. Yet, most collectors consider it the biggest classic find of 2001.

 

Do I understand you correctly that (assuming LotR indeed isn't an EPROM) you profess that indeed this is a great find, but it would have been even greater if it were a real proto?

 

As you probably understand by now, I would find that a bit weird because very counter-intuitive. Just a matter of taste? Who knows. I've learned though that definitions should not only be discriminative, but also practical.

 

To me, a real proto of Dukes would indeed be more interesting than the version sold by Best. I guess that has to do with the sheer number of copies available. For a game like Cubicolor, I couldn't care less if it's a real prototype or not. It remains one of the sexiest game to own as a 2600 collector.

 

Take care and may the gods of classic video gaming bring you many real prototypes

 

Cheers,

 

Marco

[Marco(2)]

On a related topic:

 

what I don't understand is how Fulop made his Cubicolors. I was told the making of ROMs is very expensive (not the ROM itself, but the production cost), so how did he manage?

 

Same goes for the Parker "protos". As far as I can tell, they are not EPROMs. If they're ROMs there should be many more Ewoks and LotRs, like there are Dukes of Hazzards - right?

 

Cheers,

 

Marco