FB3...

[Foxsolo2000]

I never believed that the Flashback systems alone could have kept Atari afloat. They are too short term and with nothing on the immediate horizon to keep the company going it is no surprise that they are in trouble

Edited March 8, 2006 by Foxsolo2000

[Retro Rogue]

I don't believe the FB1 and FB2 were intended to keep Atari afloat - it takes a lot more than 2 low end (price/market wise) systems to keep afloat a company that has aspirations of being another big budget Sony music or hollywood movie studio type software house. However, the FB2 was leading the way to more interesting (and IMHO innovative) products that could have begun making a larger share of the company's revenue. And at the very least pointed towards a much more lucrative way of exercising their legacy properties than just rehashing "greatest hits" rom collections for pc's and consoles. The problem is its an uphill battle with such things when you're constantly treating your legacy as the read headed step child and would rather pump your resources to such "blockbusters" (quotes = sarcasm) as "The Matrix: Path of Neo", and misshandling other modern franchises.

[Paranoid]

And I agree with Curt. I'm not sure by whose standards you would define the FB2 as "not as big of a hit". If that was the case, it would certainly only be because Atari didn't make or ship enough to meet demand, because when I was looking for my first, it was sold out and I had to mail order. My second and third, were the last of four on a Walmart shelf surrounded my mountains of cheap Jakks Pacific games.

 

I don't think the FB and legacy line is enough to carry Atari, but I think it could have been leveraged into a cash cow if they had done it right early enough and capitalized on their successes there. The way they were moving with the concept, eventually they would have hit on something that was a major success with their retro line... something that struck a universal chord with consumers and became the must-have toy of the season.

 

Hopefully, somehow, they'll still achieve that goal.

 

I'm still surprised that so many people who are enthusiasts enough to be here on Atari age talk down the FB2... especially when you see people giving positive reviews here to the Jakks PnP systems (the best of which are slightly better than garbage right out of the box, in my opinion). From a consumer electronics perspective, the FB2 is as near to a perfect product as you could hope to come across. The price is right, the features are right... the attention paid to OUR niche market is right... You just don't see products that are this well researched -and- implemented... especially in inexpensive home electronics. The flaws are so minor and excusable as to not even matter.

Edited March 8, 2006 by Paranoid

[2600Brian]

Not sure how they are stating the FB2 wasn't a big success, most retailers completely sold out quite early on.    Go into any Target, Walmart or other retailer and the shelves are spilling over filled with various Plug n Play's, while you would be lucky to find a Flashback 2 on the shelf.

 

 

Curt

 

 

Curt,

 

I'm not going to argue that the FB2 wasn't a big success, but they are no longer scarce. I think a new shipment must have come in.

 

I live in the Pacific Northwest, and all stores were completely out of Flashback 2's a couple of months ago. I was in a Target today that had at least a half dozen on the shelf, and later I was in a Fred Meyer that had three dozen on display, and had another one out of the box and hooked up to a TV. (I was so surprised at the huge display I actually stopped and counted - they were stacked two tall, two deep, seven across with a separate stack of eight a few feet away.)

 

Brian

[Clint Thompson]

I was about to say.... Target by me had 3 last week... Wal*Mart had 2 (one was beat up really badly) and the other Wal*Mart had 1. I guess the fact that the CFO (who resigned) stated the FB2 wasn't a success by any means.. probably holds some to believe it so. (and may be true) but it's a question of exactly how many sold is considered a 'real' success.

[sidcrowe]

None in the Wal Mart, Zellers (where I bought it) or ToysRus here in Barrie, Ontario. Total sell-out.

[PacManPlus]

If anyone is out in the Long Island area, the Massapequa Wal*Mart in the Sunrise Mall and the Target in Copiague still have a *bunch* left.

[doctorclu]

I guess the fact that the CFO (who resigned) stated the FB2 wasn't a success by any means.. probably holds some to believe it so. (and may be true) but it's a question of exactly how many sold is considered a 'real' success.

1030565[/snapback]

 

I'm sure he is looking at development cost verses sales.

 

Or to take it one step further, development costs, and sales as gaming ratios from other companies have reported it.

 

As I have come to understand it, selling a console these days with the development and production costs you would barely break even or maybe even loose money. It is the sale of ACCESSORIES and GAMES that brings in the true profit, especially in this day in age where you pay $40 for a game that may have a .50 cent DVD and a $1.00 case and printing.

 

So relative to that way of thinking, yes, the Flashback was not as much a success.

 

The Flashback 2 was a success to the market they were selling towards however and that being the retro fans that in many cases already had a 2600 and bought one of these anyway. The joysticks that come with it are awesome. Wish you could buy more indivudually. (hint hint hint).

 

The Flashback 2 was a success in the area of gaining consumer trust I believe.

 

As I see it, to invest so much and not move forward would be a waste when they have gone further with the classic scene than any Atari since "Atari" (before JTS) in my humble opinion.

[Curt Vendel]

Actually, the deal that was done with Atari was a win-win senario. All Atari had to pay for were the sets of tooling for the plastics, 6 in all as I recall.

 

The actual development costs (hardware/software development) was then folded into their FOB pricing, so Atari paid almost nothing for the consoles, they just paid their cost of receipt of goods. This is a HUGE difference over doing games like Driver or especially a game like Path of Neo, look at that game. A couple of gaming sites/mags said it was one of the most expensive games to develop, I think it was around the $20 mill mark, and Atari had to sell I think 8.5 million copies to fully recoup its development cost, however some sites mention that less then 5 million copies sold, so its a big gamble with games these days, its essentially no different then producing a major motion picture and if box office sales are off... you may be out of your investment. I thought Path of Neo was a great game, certainly a major leap forward from the first Matrix Game, I think the problem was timing, this game should've been the one to come out when the final movie was released. Also, with the Xbox360 debut, everyone has been focused on that console - Path of Neo should've been targetted as an Xbox 360 launch title, it would done far better sales. This next transition to the next super-consoles seems to really be hitting existing console product sales hard, so there really is no one single thing to put at fault for sales this holiday season, it was a mix of multiple bad events coming together - videogamings "Perfect Storm"

 

 

 

Curt

 

 

 

 

 

 

Curt

 

I guess the fact that the CFO (who resigned) stated the FB2 wasn't a success by any means.. probably holds some to believe it so. (and may be true) but it's a question of exactly how many sold is considered a 'real' success.

1030565[/snapback]

 

I'm sure he is looking at development cost verses sales.

 

Or to take it one step further, development costs, and sales as gaming ratios from other companies have reported it.

 

As I have come to understand it, selling a console these days with the development and production costs you would barely break even or maybe even loose money. It is the sale of ACCESSORIES and GAMES that brings in the true profit, especially in this day in age where you pay $40 for a game that may have a .50 cent DVD and a $1.00 case and printing.

 

So relative to that way of thinking, yes, the Flashback was not as much a success.

 

The Flashback 2 was a success to the market they were selling towards however and that being the retro fans that in many cases already had a 2600 and bought one of these anyway. The joysticks that come with it are awesome. Wish you could buy more indivudually. (hint hint hint).

 

The Flashback 2 was a success in the area of gaining consumer trust I believe.

 

As I see it, to invest so much and not move forward would be a waste when they have gone further with the classic scene than any Atari since "Atari" (before JTS) in my humble opinion.

1030644[/snapback]

[Paranoid]

Actually, the deal that was done with Atari was a win-win senario.    All Atari had to pay for were the sets of tooling for the plastics, 6 in all as I recall.   

 

The actual development costs (hardware/software development) was then folded into their FOB pricing, so Atari paid almost nothing for the consoles, they just paid their cost of receipt of goods.  This is a HUGE difference over doing games like Driver or especially a game like Path of Neo, look at that game.    A couple of gaming sites/mags said it was one of the most expensive games to develop, I think it was around the $20 mill mark, and Atari had to sell I think 8.5 million copies to fully recoup its development cost, however some sites mention that less then 5 million copies sold, so its a big gamble with games these days, its essentially no different then producing a major motion picture and if box office sales are off...  you may be out of your investment.    I thought Path of Neo was a great game, certainly a major leap forward from the first Matrix Game, I think the problem was timing, this game should've been the one to come out when the final movie was released.  Also, with the Xbox360 debut, everyone has been focused on that console - Path of Neo should've been targetted as an Xbox 360 launch title, it would done far better sales.      This next transition to the next super-consoles seems to really be hitting existing console product sales hard, so there really is no one single thing to put at fault for sales this holiday season, it was a mix of multiple bad events coming together - videogamings "Perfect Storm"

 

 

 

Curt

 

 

 

 

 

 

Curt

 

 

Development cost versus sales and losing money on consoles only applies to the high end consoles, anyhow. The plug and play dedicated TV games are a different beast... otherwise Jakks couldn't be floodinig the market with dozens of different TV games and reducing them to $4.99 to close them out. The FB2 is a bit more complex than a Jakks stick... but still nothing like even a PS-1 or Gameboy Advance to produce in terms of R&D or manufacturing costs.

 

The fact that the FB2 is getting retail open box displays on large TVs with stacks of boxes behind them now that inventory has caught up illustrates exactly WHAT a success the FB2 *was* over the holiday. The store manager at that location understands that he has a hot seller and wants to create excitement and move lots of this product. Any Atari manager who was calling the FB2 "not a success" was clearly not understanding the situation... but it seems that this is business as usual among Atari executive management. How many items experienced holiday shortages this year? I can't recall... but the year before, there were several items that were hard to find for my daughter's Christmas list. This year, the ONLY thing in short supply was the FB2. In my opinion, the FB2 was flying off the shelves during a rather SLOW consumer Christmas holiday season. Again, if it wasn't a success, that is only because Atari didn't plan right for it and underestimated consumer demand. But, it looks like they've been underestimating a lot.

 

And, I agree with Curt... a lot of players only see the cost of packaging and media as the costs of producing a major label game title. You've got marketing... you've got voice talent (how much do you think Samuel Jackson charged to do Tenpenny in GTA:SA? My guess is that it was no different than any other part he would do, in his eyes, and he charged accordingly. Have you ever wondered why movies have multi-million dollar budgets? I mean, how many $150,000 cars can they blow up in one movie, right? It takes at least 4 or 5 Ferraris to eat up a million. Watch the credits... every one of those people listed were pulling in a wage... a living wage, for there efforts... especially if they appear in the credits. THAT is where the lions share of the budget goes... now, watch the credits on any modern game... look familiar? Think the same thing is going on? It helps to think of a movie or game as the temporary formation of a company, with one goal... to produce the movie or game. They come together as an entire corporation and they all do their part... and they're all dividing the pie. I used to complain about the outrageously high price of games considering the costs of manufacturing (media and a box). But lately, I've realized that for $50 I can get a game like San Andreas that has a rich plot, is interactive and immersive, and that entertains me for weeks of play, hours each day... or I can go to a theater and see a movie and have some snacks and a soda, maybe twice, entertaining myself for about 4 hours, for the same price... and I have nothing to show for it when it is over. Which is the better entertainment dollar spent?

 

My vision of the FB2 is a team of maybe a dozen (full-time) people, most of them hacker-techie types, working mostly out of a passion for the product. Which is a far different beast than a modern title. I bet if you counted all the people involved with the FB2 production from start to finish, you would come up with less than 100 people, including the dudes in the Pacific Rim sweatshop that are actually putting it together.

[Bruce Tomlin]

Any Atari manager who was calling the FB2 "not a success" was clearly not understanding the situation... but it seems that this is business as usual among Atari executive management. How many items experienced holiday shortages this year? I can't recall...

...the xbox 360?

[Paranoid]

Was the Xbox 360 in that much demand? And if so, was it real or artifical? It seems that on initial release they always intentionally come in below demand to increase media attention and hype on items like this. When a $400 item is going for $3000 on eBay and getting that price, it helps justify the $400 street price as a "deal".

 

But it seemed like the response to the 360 was relatively lukewarm. It doesn't offer an INCREDIBLY improvement over the abilities of the xBox, and is a lot more expensive. I've seen it... and it is incredible and beyond the abilities of the xBox... but the xBox is wearing it's age well.

[sidcrowe]

Meh...I was happy with the PS1. I have yet to play a modern game better than FFVII. The story is the thing for an RPG. I don't need 3D all the time.

 

The other types of games...I love the 2600.

[Curt Vendel]

I would love to get an XB360, but I'm in the same mindset, there is nothing really all that incredible about it to make me jump over from my current Xbox, yeah it looks a lot nicer, the wireless controllers are certainly a plus too. Game selection is... lacking, nothing that really excites me, there is no killer-app to make me want the Xbox360. It was Halo that got me jazzed up over the Xbox and I went out and got one.

 

 

Curt

 

Was the Xbox 360 in that much demand? And if so, was it real or artifical? It seems that on initial release they always intentionally come in below demand to increase media attention and hype on items like this. When a $400 item is going for $3000 on eBay and getting that price, it helps justify the $400 street price as a "deal".

 

But it seemed like the response to the 360 was relatively lukewarm. It doesn't offer an INCREDIBLY improvement over the abilities of the xBox, and is a lot more expensive. I've seen it... and it is incredible and beyond the abilities of the xBox... but the xBox is wearing it's age well.

1030975[/snapback]

[Paranoid]

Yup. I think that seems to be the opinion of a lot of people. The original was kind of revolutionary in that it was basically off-the-shelf PC components too, which was a first for a "console". I think that created some buzz around it that the 360 didn't have.

 

They're nice... the graphics are mind-blowing. Not that my P4 3.4ghz isn't capable of the same. I'll wait until a loaded unit is $150.

[n8littlefield]

I guess the FB2 was not a success in terms of it didn't make enough profit to fix all of the awful mistakes Atari made this year. Seriously, they pump a ton of money into Path of Neo, which was a completely foolish idea. The first game gets a reputation for being horrible, the second and third films get mixed reviews, so they pump money into another game? Driver was also horrible. Atari needed to get some better quality control on their console games rather than blame the FB2.

[atarilovesyou]

I don't see anybody 'blaming' the FB2 sales for Atari's woes.

 

All I want to know is this:

 

Can we expect another version of the FB?

 

Or can I just forget about it.

[Flojomojo]

I'm going to forget about it. That way, if it happens to come out, I can be pleasantly surprised!

[+LS650]

I'm going to forget about it. That way, if it happens to come out, I can be pleasantly surprised!

Probably that's about the best way possible to handle the situation!

[Curt Vendel]

I think that is a good avenue to persue at this time.

 

 

 

Curt

 

 

I'm going to forget about it. That way, if it happens to come out, I can be pleasantly surprised!

[Room 34]

I guess the FB2 was not a success in terms of it didn't make enough profit to fix all of the awful mistakes Atari made this year.

Well geez, I should've been CEO of Atari this year. I'd have said put everything you've got into the FB2 and forget about all of that other crap! (In fact, I did say this, but the other people on the street corner thought I was a raving lunatic. )

[Gregory DG]

I think that is a good avenue to persue at this time.

[sidcrowe]

Toast

[atwwong]

Toast

As long as we don't start seeing another bunch of "I hate Info.......!" posts again...

[sidcrowe]

Toast

As long as we don't start seeing another bunch of "I hate Info.......!" posts again...

 

HEYyyyyy.....now I've got a reason to start up with that again

 

The smilie menu won't work for me