5200 DK versus 7800 DK

[Paranoid]

For all it's faults the 800 (5200) version rocks my world, it came out when the arcade machine was still around (not some years later port), and fulfilled by teenage needs for home Donkey Kong to a tee, and now it IS my defining memory of Donkey kong, first loves die hard

 

 

The 5200 has a high percentage of titles that fit this description. They may not have been PERFECT, but they were the best thing you could get, the earliest you could get them... and they stand out because of that.

 

There is no "But the NES or SMS totally beat the socks off of it" discussion around the 5200. The 5200 had exclusive games that were far superior to anything else available at the time. The Colecovision was a good system too, but their libraries were largely separate, and as has been noted countless times, they complimented each other well. But if I had to have one or the other, I'd take the 5200 every time...

[Godzilla]

a8bit(52k) PLAYS better. s'all she wrote.

[accousticguitar]

I like the 7800 version because I am better at it!

[Paranoid]

I've been playing the 5200 and MAME version almost exclusively lately. There is no question that the 7800 graphics are generally more faithful to the arcade, or that gameplay is not accurate on either console. But I've gotten pretty good at the 5200 version... even got past the pie-factory *once*. I just like the speed, tempo, and difficulty of the 5200 version. It feels real fluid and hectic. Playing it with the PMP-5200 RSI stick is even better.

[jerry32]

I'm just curious which version individuals prefer, if they are familiar with both versions.

 

I actually think I enjoy the 5200 version more, although it is clearly far less faithful to the original *graphically*. Both games differ from the arcade in some significant ways, so I'm not really looking for an analysis of which plays "truer" to the arcade original (as far as level progression, barrel patterns, or whatever)...

 

Simply, which one do you have more fun with?

 

For me, this is a great example of how the 7800 games look gorgeous, but seem ultra-slow. The 5200 version, on the other hand, can be frustratingly quick. It actually feels faster than MAME emulation of the actual arcade ROM, to me.

 

Both are fun. My 5 year old daughter always wants me to play either the 7800 version or the arcade version, it seems. Has something to do with the color of the girl's hair between the versions, as best as I've been able to figure out.

 

 

where can i get the 5200 version of dk

[Lord Helmet]

 

 

where can i get the 5200 version of dk

 

 

You can search the 5200 forum, but it's kind of burried...here ya go

dkong52.zip

[Shannon]

I'd have to say the 2600 vers.. uh I mean the intellivision... oh yeah.. The Atari 8-bit version by far!

 

7800 reminds me too much of fingernails scraping on a chalkboard.

[Paranoid]

 

 

where can i get the 5200 version of dk

 

 

You can search the 5200 forum, but it's kind of burried...here ya go

 

 

I love it when people take the extra step to actually HELP people around here.

[the 5th ghost]

So the 5200 has the mashed potato level? Cool!

[BrianC]

Yeah, Atari made some good computer versions of DK. I also recommend checking out the C64 version, which also has all four levels.

[Paranoid]

So the 5200 has the mashed potato level? Cool!

 

It does indeed. I was actually playing around with my 7800 last night, and I was struck by how quickly repetitive the three levels get without having the occasional pie-factory level thrown in. (They're obviously pans of ore, BTW, not pies or mashed potatos, and I knew this when I was a kid. I always wondered where people came up with pie-factory, mashed potatos, etc).

 

But I was thinking specifically of this thread. I tried to put myself in the moment, and imagined that the 7800 had been released when originally planned, and I was at home, playing this particular version of Donkey Kong, a couple of years before the SMS or NES had hit the market.

 

I guess what I came up with is no big surprise. The graphics are sweet. The levels may be backwards, it may be missing levels, but, it looks fantastic, for the most part. There are some weird things, graphically. Mario seems like he has a HUGE ass when he is climbing the ladders. But in general, the graphics are real impressive. The sound is attrocious. It isn't the WORST sounds I've heard come out of a video game, but they're bad. I think one thing that makes them suck is that they come CLOSE to replicating the arcade sounds, yet still somehow fail miserably. Gameplay is similar. It isn't bad, it is just lackluster. I'm inclined to think that it is simply a case of rushed programming or unpolished titles, or even that programmers never learned how to really exploit the capabilities of the 7800. I mean, Kong *can* and *does* throw barrels that don't just drop right down or follow ladders, so I don't understand why the first barrel ALWAYS drops straight down on 7800 DK. The ones that fall down at angles falls strangely and completely unpredictably, of course, but again, this seems more like a programmer who wasn't familiar with more than the surface of DK slapping something together. The incorrect order of levels and the missing pie-factory may also be similar manifestations of this. It just seems that the games didn't go through a full QA and play-testing process. I'm almost convinced that Atari was simply cutting corners. They had frozen the 7800 in 84, these titles froze where they were, and when they released in 86, they pulled the titles off the shelves, did the minimum to get them ready for market, and packed them up and shipped them out. I also played the Ms. Pac Man speed-up hack during this session, and this illustrates that they 7800 can have crisp controls, accurate levels, and fast moving characters. Why so many 7800 titles are muddy controls and a sluggish feel is a mystery.

 

The 5200 just makes it even muddier, and it really illustrates how Atari went from being the decisive vision of the home video game industry to a corporate goliath burdened by irrational decisions. I mean, the 2600 was pioneering in so many ways, that it really makes their ongoing decision process seem even more irrational. The 7800 does not feel like a successor to the 5200, or an evolution from it. Instead, it is like the 5200 is an evolutionary dead branch, in some ways superior to the 7800, in other ways, inferior. While the 5200 may not have been able to faithfully replicate more advanced arcade graphics, it had a unique graphic capability that in some ways was MORE asthetically pleasing than even the arcade versions of 5200 games. Frogger is an example of this, but you see it through a variety of 5200 titles. I believe this may be due in part to the 5200's legacy as a stripped Atari 400 personal computer. I'm not sure how to define the distinction, but the 7800 had "console" type graphics, where the 5200 had the kind of titled graphics that were reminiscent of the capabilities of the Atari 400/800 and C=64. In particular, I'm thinking of details in games like bricks, ivy, and other repetitive tiled patterns used mostly for backgrounds. I'm guessing that consoles generally have no built in library and must draw all elements from scratch, and that the 5200 might have a small library of default backgrounds that can be tiled to generate backgrounds. (Of course, the NES did seem to employ generic default backgrounds in many of its titles). In any case, although the 5200 was obviously no match for the graphics capabilities of the 7800 in theory, in practice, I think that often the graphics are an IMPROVEMENT over even the arcade originals. But really, this is where it all gets subjective, and I think that what we're seeing is two different approaches to gaming with the 8 bit hardware of the time. The 5200, although I called it an evolutionary dead-end, was really the wave of the future, in disguise. 5200 titles seem like 8 bit PC titles. They're more complex, engaging, rich and fully realized. They range across a broader and more complex spectrum of gaming genres. And in general, they're more enjoyable. DK-5200 (and the avalanch of Atari 8-bit ports to the 5200) really illustrates Atari's start-and-stop indecisive approach to the whole home-gaming market that ultimately resulted in their fall from grace. Atari had a ready supply of games that they could have flooded to the 5200 market at the time, including complex PC type games like MULE and Gateway to Apshi. The 5200 had the nifty expansion port that would have opened the way to incredible hardware upgrades (forget PC upgrades, I'm talking about a 5200 supercharger, increased memory, non-volatile stroage for saved games, multi-load games from magnetic media)... and the titles to exploit those kind of ugprades ready to be easily ported. And of course, they pretty much repeated this disaster with the 7800, making most of the same mistakes over again. For everything they improved from the 7800, they took a step backwards from it somewhere else. For every unrealized potential of the 5200, they did the same thing (for the same reasons) with the 7800.

 

I finally came to the conclusion that neither system is really a difinitive example of what a console should have been and both are examples of how Atari really didn't KNOW what their core business was or what direction they wanted to go and instead they pissed in the wind in a couple of different directions and let other companies (Commodore and Nintendo) pass them up while they divided their own resources and hobbled their ability to effectively compete, innovate, or design anywhere.

 

Which isn't really a new observation. As it relates to this particular thread, though, I'm going to say that generally the 5200 hardware and 5200 titles edge out the 7800 hardware and 7800 titles. I think the 5200 represented a lot more unrealized potential than the 7800... although both failed to utlimately deliver all that they were capable of being.

[BrianC]

If the 7800 was released when planned, I wonder if the Nintendo lincensed 7800 games would be different from the ones that came out. I doubt the Nintendo 7800 titles froze in 1984. They all came out in 1988, not 1986. All of the 7800 Nintendo lincensed titles are conversions of the NES versions, not arcade ports made especially for the 7800. The conversions even have the title music from the NES games. I have a feeling that Atari was under contract to make conversions of the NES versions for the 7800 at the time, but they didn't seem to have such a contract for computers, so they released a very polished version of Mario Bros. in 1988 for the XL/XE computers that has elements from the arcade not in the NES version.

 

IMO, if Atari wasn't under contract to convert the NES versions of Mario Bros., Donkey Kong, and Donkey Kong Jr. to the 7800, the conversions may have turned out better. The barrel thing you described is the same on the NES version. Just like in the 7800, the first barrel goes down straight every time on the NES. The pie level and the "How High Can You Get?" screens are also missing on the NES. DK Jr. 7800 is missing the intermissions and intro scenes just like the NES one. Mario Bros. 7800 is missing the exact same animations that the NES version is missing and it seems like the falling icicles (not to be confused with Slipice) are missing from both the NES and 7800 versions. The poor sound was probably a result of a quick or poor conversion of the NES sound to the 7800. If Atari was given free regin over the conversions, I have a feeling that they may have turned out as good or better than the 400/800/XL/XE versions. I feel that Nintendo is to blame for the 7800 Nintendo conversions not being all they could be, not Atari.

Edited July 27, 2006 by BrianC

[Paranoid]

I've been meaning to respond to this all day, but now it is too late, and I'm tired. I think you pose some interesting ideas here.

[jerry32]

well i've just played both of the i would say that i am undecided

[Paranoid]

If the 7800 was released when planned, I wonder if the Nintendo lincensed 7800 games would be different from the ones that came out. I doubt the Nintendo 7800 titles froze in 1984. They all came out in 1988, not 1986. All of the 7800 Nintendo lincensed titles are conversions of the NES versions, not arcade ports made especially for the 7800. The conversions even have the title music from the NES games. I have a feeling that Atari was under contract to make conversions of the NES versions for the 7800 at the time, but they didn't seem to have such a contract for computers, so they released a very polished version of Mario Bros. in 1988 for the XL/XE computers that has elements from the arcade not in the NES version.

 

IMO, if Atari wasn't under contract to convert the NES versions of Mario Bros., Donkey Kong, and Donkey Kong Jr. to the 7800, the conversions may have turned out better. The barrel thing you described is the same on the NES version. Just like in the 7800, the first barrel goes down straight every time on the NES. The pie level and the "How High Can You Get?" screens are also missing on the NES. DK Jr. 7800 is missing the intermissions and intro scenes just like the NES one. Mario Bros. 7800 is missing the exact same animations that the NES version is missing and it seems like the falling icicles (not to be confused with Slipice) are missing from both the NES and 7800 versions. The poor sound was probably a result of a quick or poor conversion of the NES sound to the 7800. If Atari was given free regin over the conversions, I have a feeling that they may have turned out as good or better than the 400/800/XL/XE versions. I feel that Nintendo is to blame for the 7800 Nintendo conversions not being all they could be, not Atari.

 

Ok... so, I think the important theme here is that the halting, stalled roll-out of the 7800 had a certain impact on the quality of the titles, and I think that seems reasonable enough. There just wasn't a lot of dedication or enthusiasm for this market segment by Atari between 1984 and 1986, and even when they re-entered the market, it was simply because NES had proven it was a viable market, and Atari wanted to cash in. It wasn't because they had a real strong *desire* to be a home console platform. Their road-map still projected PCs as the dominant game platform into the future.

 

Now, I'm surprised that the Nintendo titles are direct ports of the NES games and that they're so poor. I've never played any of these classics on an NES, but, I'm actually shocked that the NES versions are not superior to the 7800. In general, the argument seems to be that NES and SMS titles are invariably better and that these platforms are built on stronger hardware than the 7800. Not that I am sure I agree with this assessment. At any rate, from what I've seen, I would expect the NES versions of actual Nintendo games to be more accurate than what I've seen on the 7800, and certainly more faithful than older Atari 8-bit versions of the same.

 

As far as if Atari had been free of contractual constraints, the games being improved, again, I wonder if this would have been the case. Some of the problems that you can see in the Nintendo 7800 titles seem to span much of the 7800 library. The lack of intensity, excitement, and a sense of urgency. Even a game like Tower Toppler, which certainly has an intense, exciting feel, still has a certain plodding quality to it. I've mentioned this dozens of times, and I'm not sure if it is the result of a design and programming philosophy or some sort of hardware limitation (or even something more intangible), but that is one of the big standouts between DK7800 and DK5200 in my opinion. The 7800 version just seems a little sluggish and lesiurely, especially compared to the 5200 versions frentic pace.

 

I had a friend drop by unexpectedly this weekend. He saw my collection and wanted to play. I showed him the 5200 and 7800 versions of DK and Frogger. His *first* comment on DK-7800 was, "What is up with the SOUND". The sound was so distracting to him I had to point out how much more faithful the graphics were.

[Shannon]

Yeah the NES was perfectly capable of recreating the entire DK experience, yet nintendo chose not to.

[BrianC]

Now, I'm surprised that the Nintendo titles are direct ports of the NES games and that they're so poor. I've never played any of these classics on an NES, but, I'm actually shocked that the NES versions are not superior to the 7800. In general, the argument seems to be that NES and SMS titles are invariably better and that these platforms are built on stronger hardware than the 7800. Not that I am sure I agree with this assessment. At any rate, from what I've seen, I would expect the NES versions of actual Nintendo games to be more accurate than what I've seen on the 7800, and certainly more faithful than older Atari 8-bit versions of the same.

 

Umm...you are jumping to conclusions. I didn't say that the NES versions aren't superior to the 7800 ones. I simply said that the 7800 versions are conversions of the NES versions. The NES versions are superior to the 7800. They have better graphics and sound. However, the features, animations, etc. from the 7800 versions are definatly based on the NES version. Aside from graphics, sound, and difficutly settings, the 7800 versions of Nintendo games have the EXACT same features as their NES counterparts. Also, I was shocked to see that some of Nintendo's early arcade ports are missing things that some home computer versions have, but it's reality.

Edited July 31, 2006 by BrianC

[rockfistus]

There was an explanation for why the level was missing in the nes version, but I completely forget what it was and where I read it

 

EDIT: Whoops, I just had a recall.....I believe there was a chip shortage at the time, so they couldn't get the extra mappers(or whatever) on the cartridges to squeeze it in.

 

As someone else said, the C64 version was great, Pie Factory and all.

Edited July 31, 2006 by rockfistus

[Shannon]

Yeah but nintendo had plenty of opportunities to correct their little error and never did.

[Paranoid]

Now, I'm surprised that the Nintendo titles are direct ports of the NES games and that they're so poor. I've never played any of these classics on an NES, but, I'm actually shocked that the NES versions are not superior to the 7800. In general, the argument seems to be that NES and SMS titles are invariably better and that these platforms are built on stronger hardware than the 7800. Not that I am sure I agree with this assessment. At any rate, from what I've seen, I would expect the NES versions of actual Nintendo games to be more accurate than what I've seen on the 7800, and certainly more faithful than older Atari 8-bit versions of the same.

 

Umm...you are jumping to conclusions. I didn't say that the NES versions aren't superior to the 7800 ones. I simply said that the 7800 versions are conversions of the NES versions. The NES versions are superior to the 7800. They have better graphics and sound. However, the features, animations, etc. from the 7800 versions are definatly based on the NES version. Aside from graphics, sound, and difficutly settings, the 7800 versions of Nintendo games have the EXACT same features as their NES counterparts. Also, I was shocked to see that some of Nintendo's early arcade ports are missing things that some home computer versions have, but it's reality.

 

I see. I definately had the impression from your first post that the 7800 version was basically an identical port. This post made it far clearer what you were trying to convey.

[rockfistus]

Yeah but nintendo had plenty of opportunities to correct their little error and never did.

 

Well after the cartridges start rolling out of the factory it's pretty much a done deal, ya know? Once the executive decision is made that something is 'done' by a company it tends to stay that way unfortunately.

[Shannon]

Yeah but nintendo had plenty of opportunities to correct their little error and never did.

 

Well after the cartridges start rolling out of the factory it's pretty much a done deal, ya know? Once the executive decision is made that something is 'done' by a company it tends to stay that way unfortunately.

 

The re-released it a few times later and could have easily corrected it.

[Godzilla]

but they didnt and the 5200 version is still better. nah.

[jboypacman]

Never played it on the 5200.I have it for my 2600,7800,and Colecovision.I like the 7800 but the sound is off.The Colecovision one is ok but Donkey Kong is on the wrong side of the screen in the first level and it only has 2 levels but sounds great.The 2600 one while not bad pales to the other to versions i have.The arcade one is always going to be the best one in my opinion.But of the ones i have am going with the 7800 as my favorite.

[BrianC]

Never played it on the 5200.I have it for my 2600,7800,and Colecovision.I like the 7800 but the sound is off.The Colecovision one is ok but Donkey Kong is on the wrong side of the screen in the first level and it only has 2 levels but sounds great.

 

The Colecovision one has three levels, not two.

 

I tried out the Vic 20 version. It's an interesting port. All of the boards are the same color (blue), but it has all four of them. Gameplay wise, it's actually very similar to the 800/5200 version. I also played the Atarisoft CGA computer verison. It has been awhile, but I remember liking it. It has all of the levels from the arcade version, if I remember correctly. Also, if I remember correctly, the pie level is more like the arcade one with the raising and lowering ladders.

 

Edit: Ugh, it's funny how memory can play tricks on you. I tired the Atarisoft PC DK again and, IMO, it's one of the worst ports of the game. It has all four boards, but it also has terrible controls and iffy joystick support. I had to use Keyboard controls to play it. For some odd reason, Mario runs for a short distance with each button press (not a constant run, just runs a bit and then stops. It seems to be programmed this way). It's the only version of DK where the first hammer in the first level is a challenge to get.

 

Edit: I tried the PC Ms. Pac-Man again, which I had back in the day. The control is terrible with the keyboard, but it plays fine with joystick. Maybe, when the joystick for DK is working right, it's the same way. DK for DOS may not be as bad as I thought and, while the keyboard control sucks, after finding out you can stop by pressing down, it's not as bad as I initially, though. The Apple II version of DK is very similar to the PC one, but plays great with joystick.

Edited August 3, 2006 by BrianC