The BEST 8 Bit Gaming Computer

[Matt_B]

Never even owned a C64 and I don't really care one way or the other.

I just think a lot of the ways the two machines are being compared here is pretty biased. (go figure)

 

Speccy owners focus on a 3D games and discount the sprite & collision detection or character generation capabilities of the C64 but I'll bet every Speccy owner had a bunch of sprite oriented games in their collection as a kid.

Should I go through the top games lists for the Speccy and point out how many were sprite oriented vs 3D?

 

Each machine has it's advantages and saying one or the other is better depends on what you are doing.

Even within a specific area you can't make an assumption that one or the other is better based on a single game because you don't know how the game was implemented and if it's a fair comparison.

 

It's not just single games we're comparing here though, it's entire genres. The C64 produced one decent original series of isometric 3D games (Last Ninja) and no original true 3D games of any great merit. All the other good ones on it are conversions from other formats, which are generally weaker than the originals. No amount of pontificating about the capabilities of the hardware is going to change that, although it might give some insights into why it happened that way.

 

Anyway, I'm quite willing to admit - and I've already stated as much - that 2D games make up a much bigger proportion of the games people play even on the Spectrum, and the C64's capabilities were obviously put to good use there. There are also a huge chunk of games (possibly about 30% of the favourites on all formats) that use neither 3D graphics nor sprites i.e. strategy and adventure games, and they can be just as good on any of them.

 

Anyway, lest there be any confusion, my position has always been that the best 8 bit gaming machine is whichever one that your favourite 8 bit games run on.

[JamesD]

The vote is really unfair, if you are going to include Atari, then it should be the Atari 800 not the 400, unless you want to change the selection of the C64 to a VIC20

 

Curt

I think people were smart enough to figure out the poll meant Atari 8 bit computers in general.

[Gregory DG]

I think people were smart enough to figure out the poll meant Atari 8 bit computers in general.

Probably so, but I'd like to see a revote anyway.

[Mayhem]

It's not just single games we're comparing here though, it's entire genres. The C64 produced one decent original series of isometric 3D games (Last Ninja) and no original true 3D games of any great merit. All the other good ones on it are conversions from other formats, which are generally weaker than the originals.

 

If you're gonna tell me Mercenary on the C64 was weaker than the Atari version, I'll smack you upside the head

 

Seriously though, it's all going to be opinion here. Isometric type games on the C64 I also liked were Chimera, Entombed and Inside Outing. Now I'm sure many isometric games were multiformat anyhow, though Entombed for sure was C64 only (and easily Ultimate's best C64 game).

 

As for no original true 3D games of any great merit... I think you have never heard of Scarabeaus. Absolutely beautiful.

 

Sure the C64 wasn't quite as suited to vectors as the Speccy was, but it made a far better go at playing that sort of game than the Speccy did with some of the C64's more classic titles

 

(you're gonna hence love the C64 article I've written that will be in next month's Retro Gamer magazine heh!)

[Matt_B]

It's not just single games we're comparing here though, it's entire genres. The C64 produced one decent original series of isometric 3D games (Last Ninja) and no original true 3D games of any great merit. All the other good ones on it are conversions from other formats, which are generally weaker than the originals.

 

If you're gonna tell me Mercenary on the C64 was weaker than the Atari version, I'll smack you upside the head

 

Mercenary is a damn good game on all formats so I'd guess the main benefit of the Atari version was that you could get it first. Still, maybe some Atari fans would have their own opinions there?

 

Seriously though, it's all going to be opinion here. Isometric type games on the C64 I also liked were Chimera, Entombed and Inside Outing. Now I'm sure many isometric games were multiformat anyhow, though Entombed for sure was C64 only (and easily Ultimate's best C64 game).

 

As for no original true 3D games of any great merit... I think you have never heard of Scarabeaus. Absolutely beautiful.

 

Yes, I have heard about it, and remember being most impressed at the time. I'll blame Lemon64 for listing it as a 2D game otherwise I might have found it when I looked to see what there was.

 

I'd question that it's true 3D in the sense of, say, Elite or Mercenary. It's more of of a hybrid of sprites and 3D really, but I guess that's just playing to the C64's strengths which was a sensible thing to do.

 

Sure the C64 wasn't quite as suited to vectors as the Speccy was, but it made a far better go at playing that sort of game than the Speccy did with some of the C64's more classic titles

 

(you're gonna hence love the C64 article I've written that will be in next month's Retro Gamer magazine heh!)

 

Yep, I'm no fan of arcade conversions on the Spectrum and I avoided them like the plague back in the 80s. For the most part though, there are similar games that were designed with the Spectrum's capabilities in mind that both look and play a lot better. Still, I suppose if it's that specific arcade game you wanted you'd be much better off with the C64 version more often than not.

[Spector]

Translation: You are more interested in a comparison which favors your favorite machine.

As opposed to you.

Never even owned a C64 and I don't really care one way or the other.

I just think a lot of the ways the two machines are being compared here is pretty biased. (go figure)

 

Speccy owners focus on a 3D games and discount the sprite & collision detection or character generation capabilities of the C64 but I'll bet every Speccy owner had a bunch of sprite oriented games in their collection as a kid.

Should I go through the top games lists for the Speccy and point out how many were sprite oriented vs 3D?

 

Each machine has it's advantages and saying one or the other is better depends on what you are doing.

Even within a specific area you can't make an assumption that one or the other is better based on a single game because you don't know how the game was implemented and if it's a fair comparison.

 

I don't think the Spectrum was "better" than the C64. I'm saying that the Spectrum was better at 3D games. I played sprite games too, like Manic Miner, which curiously had dreadful collision detection on the C64. The C64 captures the feel of the arcades better than the spectrum in general.

You are biased against the Spectrum though. That's why in your introductory 'piece' you said "Speccy? Uh, no... " which isn't objective language.

[JamesD]

You are biased against the Spectrum though. That's why in your introductory 'piece' you said "Speccy? Uh, no... " which isn't objective language.

Objective language? HAH!

The speccy has no special hardware for sprites, the color system doesn't even have close to the flexibility of the other machines and has lower resolution. It also doesn't support customizable characters like the C64 and Atari (drawn by hardware not software). The first ones didn't even have a sound chip or a joystick port built in.

As a general gaming system I'd say that ranks it behind the C64 and Atari for sure.

Edited September 9, 2006 by JamesD

[rockfistus]

Play 720 on the speccy for a good laugh.....nice isometric engine there.

 

Now the UK version on the c64, flawless.

[AEX]

It's not just single games we're comparing here though, it's entire genres. The C64 produced one decent original series of isometric 3D games (Last Ninja) and no original true 3D games of any great merit. All the other good ones on it are conversions from other formats, which are generally weaker than the originals.

 

If you're gonna tell me Mercenary on the C64 was weaker than the Atari version, I'll smack you upside the head

 

Seriously though, it's all going to be opinion here. Isometric type games on the C64 I also liked were Chimera, Entombed and Inside Outing. Now I'm sure many isometric games were multiformat anyhow, though Entombed for sure was C64 only (and easily Ultimate's best C64 game).

 

As for no original true 3D games of any great merit... I think you have never heard of Scarabeaus. Absolutely beautiful.

 

Sure the C64 wasn't quite as suited to vectors as the Speccy was, but it made a far better go at playing that sort of game than the Speccy did with some of the C64's more classic titles

 

(you're gonna hence love the C64 article I've written that will be in next month's Retro Gamer magazine heh!)

 

 

MayhemUK,

 

Without getting too technical, I thought Paul Woakes wrote Mercenary on the Atari first, and I always thought it was faster than the C64 version - apart from the speed perhaps, the two versions do look the same. That said, Elektraglide (English Software) is far superior on the Atari than the C64

 

Waiting for my smack upside the head

 

As for the Poll, I'm an Atari 8-bitter fan through and through - although living in Ireland (much like the UK), it was definately Speccy and C64 territory and life as an Atari owner wasn't always easy in the playground

 

Karl

[pocketmego]

I've created a new poll called proper 8 bit gaming computer poll. Check it out for more and better voting choices.

 

-Ray

[Spector]

You are biased against the Spectrum though. That's why in your introductory 'piece' you said "Speccy? Uh, no... " which isn't objective language.

Objective language? HAH!

 

Objective language? Uh, no...

[JamesD]

Spector jumps up and down for the speccy ignoring all games that don't favor the speccy and then accuses me of not being objective. He picks out individual games that were bad on the C64 and ignores the hundreds of others that weren't.

What a troll!

 

Since the speccy is such an isometric master, why don't we compare versions of the most commonly ported isometric game on 8 bit platforms?

Zaxxon!

 

You can find most off of the main wiki for zaxon.

Zaxxon Wiki

Spectrum Zaxxon

Tandy Color Computer Zaxxon

 

This doesn't have all versions of Zaxxon compared but rated the C64 version the best of what they reviewed.

The Many Faces of Zaxxon

Edited September 10, 2006 by JamesD

[Spector]

Spector jumps up and down for the speccy ignoring all games that don't favor the speccy and then accuses me of not being objective. He picks out individual games that were bad on the C64 and ignores the hundreds of others that weren't.

What a troll!

 

Here's my quote from a recent post here:

"I don't think the Spectrum was "better" than the C64. I'm saying that the Spectrum was better at 3D games. I played sprite games too, like Manic Miner, which curiously had dreadful collision detection on the C64. The C64 captures the feel of the arcades better than the spectrum in general."

 

Nuff said.

 

 

Since the speccy is such an isometric master, why don't we compare versions of the most commonly ported isometric game on 8 bit platforms?

Zaxxon!

 

You can find most off of the main wiki for zaxon.

Zaxxon Wiki

Spectrum Zaxxon

Tandy Color Computer Zaxxon

 

This doesn't have all versions of Zaxxon compared but rated the C64 version the best of what they reviewed.

The Many Faces of Zaxxon

 

Good to see you're not being selective there. Zaxxon is hardly an isometric game like Knight Lore or Ant Attack; it's as much an isometric game as Paperboy is, and Paperboy was ported to more 8-bit computers and consoles than Zaxxon. Wanna check out the reviews for that one?

Edited September 10, 2006 by Spector

[Mayhem]

And there in lies the problem with different programming teams. I'll openly admit the C64 version of Paperboy was crap. So was the C64 version of Enduro Racer. The Spectrum version of ER was quite good, aside from the cheat.

 

Whereas you take the C64 version's of Bubble Bobble, Buggy Boy, Bionic Commando (mmm Bs!), Wizard of Wor and Ghouls 'n Ghosts and then compare them to the Speccy versions. I think win for the C64 all the way on each.

 

@AEX - Paul Woakes did write Mercenary on the Atari first. I've played it and compared. The C64 version aside from being a little slower is just about perfect in every way imo. It's one on my favourite C64 games of all time. Paul obviously thought long and hard about the conversion (we were waiting long enough for it!) and swopped the allegiance around on shooting the signs

[Spector]

And there in lies the problem with different programming teams. I'll openly admit the C64 version of Paperboy was crap. So was the C64 version of Enduro Racer. The Spectrum version of ER was quite good, aside from the cheat.

 

Whereas you take the C64 version's of Bubble Bobble, Buggy Boy, Bionic Commando (mmm Bs!), Wizard of Wor and Ghouls 'n Ghosts and then compare them to the Speccy versions. I think win for the C64 all the way on each.

 

Yep it's true - some programming teams tended to do better on the Spectrum, and some found the C64 more comfortable. You need both machines, because they were both great and offer different experiences.

[JamesD]

Good to see you're not being selective there. Zaxxon is hardly an isometric game like Knight Lore or Ant Attack; it's as much an isometric game as Paperboy is, and Paperboy was ported to more 8-bit computers and consoles than Zaxxon. Wanna check out the reviews for that one?

Congratulations! Now you understand why I'm saying your game selection is biased!

You can pick out crap titles for any machine and compare it to good ones on another and it gives a distorted picture.

So glad you agree with me.

 

The entire 3D argument started because you wanted to pick 1 class of games in a thread about best overal gaming computer.

[Spector]

Good to see you're not being selective there. Zaxxon is hardly an isometric game like Knight Lore or Ant Attack; it's as much an isometric game as Paperboy is, and Paperboy was ported to more 8-bit computers and consoles than Zaxxon. Wanna check out the reviews for that one?

Congratulations! Now you understand why I'm saying your game selection is biased!

You can pick out crap titles for any machine and compare it to good ones on another and it gives a distorted picture.

So glad you agree with me.

 

Maybe now we're getting somewhere.

 

The entire 3D argument started because you wanted to pick 1 class of games in a thread about best overal gaming computer.

 

Then again, maybe not. I never said the Spectrum was overall a better machine than the C64.

I hope you're not going to develop a grudge against me, young man. Remember, this thread is primarily entertainment for the other readers on here, and we have been the performers. Nobody has started swearing, nobody has been abused, and nobody has suggested what the other person can do with their mother. A good weekend's work: let's call it quits, huh?

[MacbthPSW]

The vote is really unfair, if you are going to include Atari, then it should be the Atari 800 not the 400, unless you want to change the selection of the C64 to a VIC20

The VIC20 to C64 as Atari 400 to 800 analogy is really weak. The 400 and 800 share the same video and sound hardware... the only really significant difference between the two for gaming is the amount of RAM.

 

On the other hand, the VIC20 and C64 have completely different video and sound hardware - the VIC20 has no sprites at all.

 

A much closer analogy in the Commodore world are the Plus/4 and Commodore 16.

[JamesD]

Then again, maybe not. I never said the Spectrum was overall a better machine than the C64.

I guess we are making progress.

 

I hope you're not going to develop a grudge against me, young man.

Young man? Wow! THANK YOU! I might just be older than you though. I got my first programming gig in 1981.

 

Remember, this thread is primarily entertainment for the other readers on here, and we have been the performers. Nobody has started swearing, nobody has been abused, and nobody has suggested what the other person can do with their mother. A good weekend's work: let's call it quits, huh?

You object to my use of "argument"? I assure you my use of the word is correct and no swearing, etc... was implied.

 

Definitions of argument on the Web:

1. a fact or assertion offered as evidence that something is true; "it was a strong argument that his hypothesis was true"

2. controversy: a contentious speech act; a dispute where there is strong disagreement; "they were involved in a violent argument"

3. a discussion in which reasons are advanced for and against some proposition or proposal; "the argument over foreign aid goes on and on"

 

See definitions #1 and #3.

[Spector]

You object to my use of "argument"? I assure you my use of the word is correct and no swearing, etc... was implied.

 

Definitions of argument on the Web:

1. a fact or assertion offered as evidence that something is true; "it was a strong argument that his hypothesis was true"

2. controversy: a contentious speech act; a dispute where there is strong disagreement; "they were involved in a violent argument"

3. a discussion in which reasons are advanced for and against some proposition or proposal; "the argument over foreign aid goes on and on"

 

See definitions #1 and #3.

 

I was half-joking, Mr D - no need to throw the dictionary at me. Luckily I ducked and it missed my head.

By the way, I think the Tandy computers were all rubbish

[JamesD]

I was half-joking, Mr D - no need to throw the dictionary at me. Luckily I ducked and it missed my head.

Are you sure it missed? I dunno...

By the way, I think the Tandy computers were all rubbish

Allllll right buddy... them's fightin words!!!! Pute up you dukes... come on....

[AussieAtari]

The Monty Python definition of an argument would perhaps best fit the spirit of this thread.

[JamesD]

<looking around for the spanish inquisition>

[AussieAtari]

You'll find them sitting in the comfy chair.