Warerat Projects

[+warerat]

But, one issue is the soldering. I have an extremely mint A800, and would really like to keep this sucker original (not that it is ruining *much* originality as there is no cutting involved...but still). I suppose if this is the only route I can get another A800 for the mod, but any chance of a solder free solution some day?

 

Then you would probably want his original design. That one only need 1 jumper to the connector and you still use all 3 ram cards.

 

I think warerat may want to use the 3 slots for something. I know he had a slot 3 MyIDE card.

 

 

See, that sounds pretty cool. Warerat, is it possible to get this design as well?

 

No, you don't want that particular design-- it's pain in the tail to hack an OS board (i.e. grafting 28-pin sockets where there were 24-pin ones), and I don't want to destroy any more original modules. Besides that design only provides RAM under the OS, and I never considered it a "production" design as it was a semi-800XL. It worked, yes, and while the logic was customized for the OS slot (which is different from the memory slots), you still have to get to the PIA signals, and needed to have the OS hacked to detect the RESET key. The Atari 800 is a close cousin to the newer machines, but it was designed in a different era with different constraints. I've traced the solder points to existing pads on the motherboard, so you're not really hurting anything. Could it be solderfree? Sure. Would you be willing to pay an extra $20-$25 for piggyback IC boards and custom connectors for them on top of the cost of the module? Considering you're replacing the entire memory system on the machine and implementing it in a way that wasn't thought of yet, 16 connection points is a bargain.

 

I'm trying to make this economical for everyone-- I will most likely run off 20 or 25 boards initially. I do understand some folks aren't comfortable soldering or modifying the original machine, but then again, understand this is a unique conversion that needs to hook things up in ways that weren't originally intended on the 800.

[olavese@online.no]

Sounds very nice! I'd like one!

[zektor800]

Actually, I would not mind one bit paying an extra $20-25 for a solder free solution honestly. But if solder it is, that is what it is. I will definitely be grabbing these when you finish. This is indeed exciting news, and I for one certainly appreciate your dedicated work! REALLY looking forward to getting this into an 800!

Edited November 7, 2006 by zektor800

[+warerat]

Howdy Ken

 

It's also important to note that there is no QUICK & EASY way to make an XL memory upgrade do TRUE "XE extended video mode".

 

Not without adding either a CO25953 or a GAL plus a 74LS95B. For the contents of that GAL, check the CO25953 item on my special stuff page.

 

But some day, I am going to code something that uses this feature to it's fullest, and it is gonna blow everyone's mind. heheh.

 

As soon as it's ready, please send me a copy for my site. I've been hoping and begging for a piece of software like that for ages.

 

Greetings

 

Mathy (a "separate ANTIC and CPU acces" fan since day one)

 

While I do see "some" value to this feature, I'd rather have more switchable memory to run for more complex code rather than just have a 16K region in memory where ANTIC can see a different bank separately from the CPU. Besides page-flipping, is there really any useful application? In my humble opinion, I'd rather just hardwire ANTIC to see whatever the CPU sees, period. And here's why:

 

Remember, ANTIC DMA is read-only, so if I'm going to do something more impressive with this feature than display static screens, I better be able to write to memory to make things interesting. Thanks to separate ANTIC enhanced access, I've just immediately constrained myself by *not* being able to run code to change the ANTIC-enhanced memory from the 16K window. Switching CPU access in to allow the write to the extended screen would switch out the code from main memory and I'd either have to make sure the very same code is available at the same address in the extra bank or run the screen change code at some other address outside the access window.

 

So, by having separate CPU and ANTIC enables:

 

- I can run code from main memory, and display ANTIC memory from a different bank (this is the perceived "advantage", no?)

 

but,

 

- I can't run code from the main memory under the bank ANTIC sees unless I either run the code that changes the ANTIC memory outside the 16K region, or have a copy in the same extended memory bank when I switch the CPU access on to allow the write, thus holding two copies of the same code in memory.

 

To be fair, the same applies to regular CPU accesses in the 16K region where you have to be careful not to switch out your code, but that aside, the net result is still the same: I've still limited myself to where I can run code for the sake of read-only ANTIC access, ala VideoBlitz style.

 

Is the ability for ANTIC to see what the CPU sees either in main memory or an extended bank important? Absolutely.

Is there any advantage to having segregated CPU and ANTIC accesses to memory? Unless you're page flipping, I believe the benefits and constraints cancel each other out, so you're just better off with the above or just moving your screen data to main memory when necessary.

 

Just my two cents....

[doctorclu]

Prototype replacement XL/XE Personality Module for the Atari 800 with 128K and 576K option for 100% 130XE compatibility.

Nice!

 

16 solder points is fine. When the personality module is removed, you get the use of port 3/4 back right? And CPLDs and FPGAs simply rule.

 

I can't wait to get my hands on one of these

 

Yes, once the 16 internal connections are made, simply unplugging the header from the board and replacing all the original boards will return the 800 back to stock. No cutting of any traces in required. You need the extra wiring to bring in the PIA signals and a few others. This is what it will look like plugged into the 800 card bay-- that will be the only board you need, the three memory slots will be unused. The ribbon cable I have shown in my 800 is a 10-conductor ribbon (for the original design), but it looks like there's just enough room in the rear slots to snake the 16-conductor ribbon in there. I don't want to cut anything to make it fit. You will need to remove the plastic cases from the stock boards in order to have clearance for the IDC connector with all four original boards plugged in.

 

Looking great Warerat!!

[Gunstar]

Prototype replacement XL/XE Personality Module for the Atari 800 with 128K and 576K option for 100% 130XE compatibility. Ran out of time this week to finish the wiring, but as it stands, the logic for the memory mapper for the 128K chip is in place, and the hardware reset is in place. This is an improvement from my original prototype as it will only require one board and retains full 800 compatibiity if you plug the original boards back in. It will however, require 16 solder connections to the motherboard and you lose ports 3 and 4, but you will have full XL/XE compatibility. For those of you out there that are into CPLD's, the entire design fits in an Altera EPM3032 and only uses a third of the macrocells.

 

Stay tuned.

 

yeah, I learned to "program" Altera's when I was getting my electronics degree, it was quite easy to use with the great tools and components to just drag and drop. I've been meaning to by an Altera EPM3032 for my self one of these days. It's a LOT easier to test out circuit ideas than building them by hand on bread boards (theres always some component that isn't making good contact and you spend hours quadruple checking everything to find the problem ).

[Gunstar]

Actually, I would not mind one bit paying an extra $20-25 for a solder free solution honestly. But if solder it is, that is what it is. I will definitely be grabbing these when you finish. This is indeed exciting news, and I for one certainly appreciate your dedicated work! REALLY looking forward to getting this into an 800!

 

Being deftly experienced soldering, I can tell you with confidence that the 16 solder points won't effect your 800's stock/mint/original status at all if you remove them. It's a completely reversable process with no residual effects, especially if he's using unused solderpads on the 800 motherboard. All you need is some good desoldering braid to completely remove any solder back to the clean solder pad, and no one could ever tell it was done. i can tell you this with confidence without even seeing his upgrade or where the solder points are at. But, if you are not skilled with a soldering iron or at desoldering, you can make mistakes and damage something, at least cosmetically. you do need to have a steady hand and know the proper, professional technique for soldering and desoldering, which instructions for are widely available on the net. Many people may say that a desoldering iron is best, but I disagree, I get far better and cleaner results with desoldering braid of high quality (like RadioShack sells), if you use it properly. And cheap solder-suckers do suck, but not the solder they are supposed to suck; the tips are too large to get in close enough.

Edited November 9, 2006 by Gunstar

[zektor800]

Actually, I would not mind one bit paying an extra $20-25 for a solder free solution honestly. But if solder it is, that is what it is. I will definitely be grabbing these when you finish. This is indeed exciting news, and I for one certainly appreciate your dedicated work! REALLY looking forward to getting this into an 800!

 

Being deftly experienced soldering, I can tell you with confidence that the 16 solder points won't effect your 800's stock/mint/original status at all if you remove them. It's a completely reversable process with no residual effects, especially if he's using unused solderpads on the 800 motherboard. All you need is some good desoldering braid to completely remove any solder back to the clean solder pad, and no one could ever tell it was done. i can tell you this with confidence without even seeing his upgrade or where the solder points are at. But, if you are not skilled with a soldering iron or at desoldering, you can make mistakes and damage something, at least cosmetically. you do need to have a steady hand and know the proper, professional technique for soldering and desoldering, which instructions for are widely available on the net. Many people may say that a desoldering iron is best, but I disagree, I get far better and cleaner results with desoldering braid of high quality (like RadioShack sells), if you use it properly. And cheap solder-suckers do suck, but not the solder they are supposed to suck; the tips are too large to get in close enough.

 

 

The more I think about how great this board is going to be, the less I am worrying about modding my 800 I have decided that I am certianly going to do it. This is a pretty exciting time for the ol' 800. This is certainly going to be fantastic

[danwinslow]

When do we pay?

[zektor800]

When do we pay?

 

 

When Warerat says he's ready to distribute

[Gunstar]

Can this work in a 400 too?

[Almost Rice]

Can this work in a 400 too?

 

I would think so, but the 400 does not have an OS board so the changes would go on the MB.

[+warerat]

Can this work in a 400 too?

 

I would think so, but the 400 does not have an OS board so the changes would go on the MB.

 

Yes, it would require a minor redesign to work on the 400. A 400 version of this is actually a little bit simpler, and absolutely do-able.

 

The changes would not go on the motherboard. It would plug in place of the 16K RAM card, and in addition you would have to pull the three OS ROM chips and also have the 16 connection points exactly like the 800 version. It would require soldering because RD4/RD5 are not electrically connected on the cart slot because the original design was made with only 16K in mind.

[+warerat]

When do we pay?

 

No money until I have a final PCB done and sourced the parts.

 

I'm pretty busy this week so I will try to finish the prototype wiring this coming weekend.

[joeventura]

has anyone ever heard of an ATR8000 being modified to support Hard drives? I did some research and was wondering if that is possible.

 

I have an ATR8000 with co-power88 on the way and wondered how I can hack it <grin>

[dinosaur]

has anyone ever heard of an ATR8000 being modified to support Hard drives? I did some research and was wondering if that is possible.

 

I have an ATR8000 with co-power88 on the way and wondered how I can hack it <grin>

 

SWP made a second-generation called the ATR8500 that had a hard drive interface.

 

The bad news is with this,or any modification of an ATR8000,you are running on

the SIO bus...thus no faster than 19,200.

 

I think that would be a pretty slow hard drive!

[Mathy]

Howdy dinosaur, folks

 

The SIO bus can be a lot faster. But the question is, does the ATR8x00 support that.

 

I only know the ATR8x00 by name, and might have seen it in real live at one time, but have never used it or have seen it being used.

 

But as far as I understood, the ATR8x00 kinda reduces the Atari to a terminal/keyboard. The ATR8x00 is used as the main computer. And therefore not all data has to be loaded into the Atari. So as long as the connection between ATR8x00 and harddrive is fast enough, everything should work out fine.

 

Greetings

 

Mathy

[+CharlieChaplin]

Well,

believe it or not, the Video Blitz demo that originally uses/requires the separate Antic access is also available in a new/modified version by Tebe/Madteam that does not need separate Antic access... So, when I said there are only 2 programs available that make use of this mode (Video Blitz and The Wedge), this is still true, but now one of them is also available in a modified form that does not need sep. Antic, he he he ... So really, I don`t care about this mode... -Andreas.

[+warerat]

Howdy dinosaur, folks

 

The SIO bus can be a lot faster. But the question is, does the ATR8x00 support that.

 

I only know the ATR8x00 by name, and might have seen it in real live at one time, but have never used it or have seen it being used.

 

But as far as I understood, the ATR8x00 kinda reduces the Atari to a terminal/keyboard. The ATR8x00 is used as the main computer. And therefore not all data has to be loaded into the Atari. So as long as the connection between ATR8x00 and harddrive is fast enough, everything should work out fine.

 

Greetings

 

Mathy

 

The Atari is only used a dumb terminal only when you boot the ATR into CPM mode. Other than that the floppy, serial, and printer interfaces are handled by the Z80 to simulate a SIO device. However, the implementation is through a bit-banger technique so it probably can't go much faster. The ATR8500 supposedly had the Z80 SIO/2 IC that was a real UART...

[+poobah]

Any word on this? I've got my very first Atari 800 (purchased way back when I was 11) just begging me for a reason to open her up, and replace some PS caps.

[+Larry]

Howdy dinosaur, folks

 

The SIO bus can be a lot faster. But the question is, does the ATR8x00 support that.

 

I only know the ATR8x00 by name, and might have seen it in real live at one time, but have never used it or have seen it being used.

 

But as far as I understood, the ATR8x00 kinda reduces the Atari to a terminal/keyboard. The ATR8x00 is used as the main computer. And therefore not all data has to be loaded into the Atari. So as long as the connection between ATR8x00 and harddrive is fast enough, everything should work out fine.

 

Greetings

 

Mathy

 

The Atari is only used a dumb terminal only when you boot the ATR into CPM mode. Other than that the floppy, serial, and printer interfaces are handled by the Z80 to simulate a SIO device. However, the implementation is through a bit-banger technique so it probably can't go much faster. The ATR8500 supposedly had the Z80 SIO/2 IC that was a real UART...

 

IIRC, I read some comments by Charles Marslett once where he talked about "bit-banging" to eliminate the need for a UART. He stated that if a real UART had been used in the ATR8K, the selling price would have risen about $50. I *think* this was in an article by David Small. Anyone else remember it? -Larry

-Larry

[mimo]

If this could somehow be made switchable so I can still play 4 player games, and be made for the 400 I would be interested.

[SpaceHunter]

Warerat,

 

Could you please give us an update? I'm very interested in this project of yours!

 

Thanks!

[+warerat]

Warerat,

 

Could you please give us an update? I'm very interested in this project of yours!

 

Thanks!

 

Hi folks,

 

I'm still alive. I'm the midst of finishing my last long semester in grad school and well as working full time and traveling for work (for those that have been there, you know what I mean). So my time working on it has been pretty limited. I am happy to report that I did work out some bugs and can bring the system up on it's own and run the self-test. There's something wrong with the memory system because it thinks there's only 20K of memory installed and only the first 1K and the 13th 1K test good. But apparently there's enough memory to run Star Raiders.

 

I'm going to have to move to a larger CPLD with more I/Os as the more I look at the logic, the more extra chips I can eliminate. Looks like the design will be finalized on a Xilinx XC9572XL in VQ64 small quad-flat pack. That will allow me the room to do the complete implementation with the PBI logic in place for those who want to use the now free RAM slots for PBI devices.

 

Sorry for the delay.

 

Sergio

[carmel_andrews]

Mathy....is the the 800 cum xe upgrade you are referring to

 

I do have an 800 somewhere, i know though that it does not work properly (wrong colours and awful TVI/white noise)