Atari Jaguar VS Sega Saturn

[spiffyone]

BTW, how long until you post the infamous "blue shadows" review?

 

That one is always good for a laugh.

 

lol @ Gamefan. It sure was entertaining.

[spiffyone]

What if Playstation hadnt existed, and Sega didnt add that second SH2 to the Saturn, would it still have beat the Jaguar in terms of polygons?

 

It's a myth, apparently, that Sega added the second SH2 or "3D" at the last minute. It was always there from the get-go. Sega just added to the overall design (probably more muscle to the VDPs and tried for less bottlenecks) when they saw the PSone specs from Sony.

[kevincal]

Imagine if you went to Japan and asked some hardcore gamers which is better Jaguar or Saturn? HAHAhahaha... And that's exactly what they'd do...they'd be rolling on the ground laughing or asking "Jaguar?" Gorf, why can't all you devs get together and put your all of your knowledge into one company and churn out some freaking kickass games and stun the gaming world? Well atleast the classic gaming world... Imagine how much ofa badass game could come out of the Jag or better yet Jag CD if you Gorf, 4play, and all the euro devs and other us devs got together...instead of fighting... That would be cool.

 

 

Too many cooks......ever here that saying?

 

Besides, we have teamed up with some VERY prominent

original authorized jaguar Developers. We are way ahead

of you. Oh they do not in the least disagree with my

assesments on the Jag's ability BTW.

 

Well that's great news... Can't wait to see what comes of it.

[kevincal]

From the Vs. review:

"...what makes this job even harder is knowing that a company's previous outing of the same game, but on a different system is literally a hundred times better...I have to admit I'm a little disappointed in Capcom's ability to port MVSF to the PSX...animation...has taken a turn for the worse."

 

gee, that sounds exactly like what I and others have stated.

 

This is where it gets sticky:

"As far as gameplay goes, though, MVSF does manage to deliver the same smack-down as its arcade counterpart. Sure, like X-Men vs. SF you still can't switch between your characters during rounds but come on there was a time when no one thought conversions of this caliber were even possible...Ok, so MVSF isn't a perfect translation, and yes it may be lacking in more than a few departments..."

 

I generally loved GameFan, but this review is an example of one of the things I didn't like about it.

First, why would you have a person who admittedly "isn't very fond" of a particular game do a review on it? A person who hates on a game isn't going to take the time to notice and detail all the intricate parts of the game. They are just going to blow through it so they can write up their review and get their paycheck.

Secondly, the game obviously does NOT deliver the same smack down as it's arcade (and Saturn) counterpoint. YOU CAN'T SWITCH CHARACTERS! That is an integral part of the friggin' gameplay and many strategies use that feature.

That's like taking Bump and Jump and removing the Jump. It's no longer the same game.

 

The whole review boils down to this: This version is fine for those who have never played the arcade original and just want to have a fighting game to mess around with. It's like saying london broil is a fine steak as long as you've never had filet mignon.

 

I like how you totally side-stepped the SFA 3 review... ;)

[kevincal]

Spiffy, I really don't know who you think you are by talking down to me like you are... You're are not above me in any way by any means, so don't even try. You can't judge someones intelligence based upon a few unedited replies in a video game forum... Gorf has misspelling and shit all the time cus like me, he could really give a shit to impress anyone that way...yet it's obvious he's a very bright guy..You gonna talk down to him like he's a dumbass too? ... Don't insult my intelligence again, ok?

[A Sprite]

This is getting silly, guys. Subtract the 4 meg cart, and the PSX and the Saturn are nearly equal in terms of potential to handle the 2D games available...for that generation. Most of the 2D games were still created on aging arcade hardware. The vs. series reveals the PSX's weaknesses: there's no way clever programming can get around the ridiculous sprite demands - can you imagine if both systems attempted Street Fighter 3?

Edited August 8, 2007 by A Sprite

[kevincal]

I agree...It's BEEN SILLY!!! I'm done arguing about this crap!

[spiffyone]

Spiffy, I really don't know who you think you are by talking down to me like you are... You're are not above me in any way by any means, so don't even try. You can't judge someones intelligence based upon a few unedited replies in a video game forum... Gorf has misspelling and shit all the time cus like me, he could really give a shit to impress anyone that way...yet it's obvious he's a very bright guy..You gonna talk down to him like he's a dumbass too? ... Don't insult my intelligence again, ok?

 

I dunno, maybe you think you're getting a rise out of me or something, but I'm having laughs and find you pretty sad.

 

It's not your intelligence I question, it's your maturity.

 

Judging by the posts so far it's highly questionable.

 

No one insulted you, btw, until you started dishing insults for no apparent reason.

 

Does disagreeing with you equate to insulting you personally?

 

Does stating that PSone is not as capable as Saturn in terms of 2D insult you personally?

 

This is a debate on a video game enthusiast message board.

 

Put things in perspective.

 

This is not real life; this is not serious business.

 

And I would talk down to Gorf if I were cordial in my comments and he continued the route that you proceed on.

 

Same as with anyone.

 

The difference is that if I have disagreements with anyone else here they don't stoop to your level.

 

Even if you are trying to get a rise or something out of me it's a sad attempt to do so. There is such a thing as "proper" trolling skills.

 

Regardless, try to put things in perspective.

[spiffyone]

This is getting silly, guys. Subtract the 4 meg cart, and the PSX and the Saturn are nearly equal in terms of potential to handle the 2D games available...for that generation. Most of the 2D games were still created on aging arcade hardware. The vs. series reveals the PSX's weaknesses: there's no way clever programming can get around the ridiculous sprite demands - can you imagine if both systems attempted Street Fighter 3?

 

Even sans RAM cart Saturn had more VRAM than PSone and the ports of games that didn't use the RAM cart were closer to arcade than PSone versions.

 

The RAM cart just pushed them further apart.

 

Doesn't mean that the PSone was a P.O.S. It just wasn't as capable in that regard as a stock Saturn and really not as capable when taking the RAM cart into account.

 

And it got silly long ago, tbqh.

[A Sprite]

spiffyone - take a look at this -

 

 

Same game. Same generation. Now compare any two screen shots of Alpha 3 from Playstation and Saturn, and you can see kevincal's point...

 

 

Both of you need to ease up a bit. You're forgetting that words over the internet have no tonal context to soften them, and are reading way too much nastiness where there is none into each other's words. spiffyone - kevincal apologized for getting nasty earlier. Let it go. kevincal - just because spiffyone thinks you're very wrong, doesn't mean you're under attack.

 

This has been fun to watch, but now it's just a little ugly. Let's not turn this into Rob vs Gorf - you guys are too smart to fall into this, okay?

[kevincal]

Yep and like I said I'm done arguing this matter. It's all good, I just got my buttons pushed I guess...lol

[Gorf]

Spiffy, I really don't know who you think you are by talking down to me like you are... You're are not above me in any way by any means, so don't even try. You can't judge someones intelligence based upon a few unedited replies in a video game forum... Gorf has misspelling and shit all the time cus like me, he could really give a shit to impress anyone that way...yet it's obvious he's a very bright guy..You gonna talk down to him like he's a dumbass too? ... Don't insult my intelligence again, ok?

 

 

Yeah, But I live in Jersey...We mis-spell and cuss as a normality.

 

We dont consider 'f#$k' a cus word....in Jersey its either a verb or an

adjective...even a noun some time..."Hey ,you ugly f#$k! Let's go

get a bite to eat." Is a perfectly acceptable and friendly invitation out

to dinner aoround here.

 

[Michael_]

Imagine if you went to Japan and asked some hardcore gamers which is better Jaguar or Saturn? HAHAhahaha... And that's exactly what they'd do...they'd be rolling on the ground laughing or asking "Jaguar?"

 

True. You could probably replace the word "Jaguar" with "Playstation" and I´m sure you´d get the same effect.

Japanese hardcore gamers always preferred the Saturn.

[kevincal]

Spiffy, I really don't know who you think you are by talking down to me like you are... You're are not above me in any way by any means, so don't even try. You can't judge someones intelligence based upon a few unedited replies in a video game forum... Gorf has misspelling and shit all the time cus like me, he could really give a shit to impress anyone that way...yet it's obvious he's a very bright guy..You gonna talk down to him like he's a dumbass too? ... Don't insult my intelligence again, ok?

 

 

Yeah, But I live in Jersey...We mis-spell and cuss as a normality.

 

We dont consider 'f#$k' a cus word....in Jersey its either a verb or an

adjective...even a noun some time..."Hey ,you ugly f#$k! Let's go

get a bite to eat." Is a perfectly acceptable and friendly invitation out

to dinner aoround here.

 

 

Well I wish it was more like that here in Cali. I love me some cussing... When the situation requires it, of course...

[kevincal]

Imagine if you went to Japan and asked some hardcore gamers which is better Jaguar or Saturn? HAHAhahaha... And that's exactly what they'd do...they'd be rolling on the ground laughing or asking "Jaguar?"

 

True. You could probably replace the word "Jaguar" with "Playstation" and I´m sure you´d get the same effect.

Japanese hardcore gamers always preferred the Saturn.

 

Well... I think both the Saturn and PS are close to equally popular over there though...

[jesusc]

I like how you totally side-stepped the SFA 3 review... ;)

 

I read the first one I saw. I'll tackle the other one when time permits.

 

review states: "Sure, there are frames missing in the home version..."

 

Ok, so after a few more years of working with the hardware, capcom was able to get an almost arcade perfect port out on psx.

It still wasn't perfect, unlike the Saturn version.

Edited August 9, 2007 by jesusc

[Jaguarandine]

Having played both, just thought I'd comment that the Saturn version of Alpha 3 (or Zero 3 in Japan) is a MUCH better port. Much more animation, juggles intact, and better gameplay. Actually, most fighting game fans prefer the Saturn version over even the Dreamcast one. Gamefan never reviewed Zero 3 on Saturn, seeing as it came out later than the PSX version, but we all know the Saturn fanboys that they were. Not saying that the PSX version is bad, because it isn't at all; it's just not on the same level as the Saturn version.

 

Btw, the CPS-3 arcade system that ran Street Fighter III had SH-2 as it's main CPU

 

Hey Spiffy, you on SRK?

[spiffyone]

spiffyone - take a look at this -

 

 

Same game. Same generation. Now compare any two screen shots of Alpha 3 from Playstation and Saturn, and you can see kevincal's point...

 

 

But you and I both know that in motion things are quite different. That's my point. Yeah, still screens look similar, but in motion things are very different.

 

And animation frames are part of graphical output. If the PSOne version is missing those frames and the Saturn version isn't, and it is consistent throughout the majority of games that are shared between the two consoles, then it's only logical that the Saturn is the better of the two in terms of such output (2D sprite graphics).

 

In SFA3 alone there's even more evidence to support that PSone can't run the game the way Saturn can. Toss aside missing frames and smaller sprites, and enter Dramatic Battle Mode where the PSone version is limited to two distinct character models on screen at once (one distinct character vs. two palette swaps) compared to the three distinct characters on screen at once in the Saturn version.

 

All that ties into the graphics of the game.

 

As for the "issues" not related to the topic or to games, I'm letting it go. I've had my say, and I'm done with it.

[spiffyone]

Having played both, just thought I'd comment that the Saturn version of Alpha 3 (or Zero 3 in Japan) is a MUCH better port. Much more animation, juggles intact, and better gameplay. Actually, most fighting game fans prefer the Saturn version over even the Dreamcast one. Gamefan never reviewed Zero 3 on Saturn, seeing as it came out later than the PSX version, but we all know the Saturn fanboys that they were. Not saying that the PSX version is bad, because it isn't at all; it's just not on the same level as the Saturn version.

 

Btw, the CPS-3 arcade system that ran Street Fighter III had SH-2 as it's main CPU

 

Hey Spiffy, you on SRK?

 

The DC port would've been better had they based it off of the original arcade version, but they decided to just do a somewhat upgraded port of the PSone version. This is probably due to the relative ease of porting PSone games to DC.

 

And, no, I'm not on SRK. I used to visit every now and then when SFA3 and CvS1 and 2 hit, especially for the JChen FAQs that broke down the changes to the SNK characters in the Capcom developed crossovers (they play pretty differently from SNK's own games) but SRK became too Marvel Vs. series obsessed for me. I never really liked the games in that series. I mean...I liked the Marvel fighting games, but not the crossovers with the Capcom characters. The Capcom side was mostly useless, and IMHO the two sides never really fit together. I really liked the CvS games though because SNK characters mixed very well with the ones from Capcom and both sides of the roster were highly useful. Although, tbqh, I think SNK did the best job mixing the characters and fighting engines in MOTM on the Neo Geo Pocket Color.

[A Sprite]

But you and I both know that in motion things are quite different. That's my point. Yeah, still screens look similar, but in motion things are very different.

 

Saturn without the ram cart, was my point. How does the Saturn handle the game, frames of animation wise, on it's own? Don't forget also, there are better 2D games on the PSone, in motion, when the sprites aren't as large as a fighting game requires.

 

With two game systems who's games look near identical in screenshots, and who trade the lead back and forth in animation, it's fair to say the two systems are similiar - those disappointed by the Playstation's gutted X-men vs. Streetfighter fan fic are matched by those who missed out on three of the best 2D shooters done right on the PSX, when the Saturn was supposed to be the better system for 2D.

 

Everything else you said, however, is gospel truth, including the Neo pocket love.

Edited August 9, 2007 by A Sprite

[spiffyone]

The RAM cart is necessary to run the game. Capcom didn't make it optional like with some of the other games they did (where without RAM cart the game would have less animations and longer loads, but still be better than the PSone versions).

 

Regardless, why take away the RAM carts? It's as much a part of the Saturn design as the expansion pack is for N64. Are we all of a sudden going to negate N64 games that either use or need the expansion pack? Are we not to count Majora's Mask, Perfect Dark (only 25% of the game was available sans expansion pack), Turok 2 (high res), and the Rogue Squadron games (both of which, iirc, used the expansion pack)?

 

Shall we straphang Sega and Nintendo because Sony didn't have such forward looking options on PSone?

 

And those who missed out on three of the best 2D shooters done right on PSone are more than matched by those who played the other 2D shmups done right only on Saturn, and the fact that there are more shmups on Saturn to begin with.

 

And, again, in terms of 2D fighters that were on both PSone and Saturn and where the Saturn versions didn't need the RAM packs, or where the use was optional, the games still had larger sprites, more animation, and faster loads than PSone.

 

This isn't to take away from PSone's strengths. But 2D sprite driven games was not a strength of that console in comparison to Saturn.

 

Going by screens is silly. There was a version of SFA2 on SNES for cryin' out loud! But the game didn't run as well as the PSone version, which in turn itself didn't run as well as the Saturn version. PSone was better at 2D than SNES due to it being more powerful overall, and Saturn was better at 2D than PSone due to it being more powerful at 2D specifically.

[spiffyone]

 

^^Judging solely by that would you state that SNES wasn't far off from PSone and Saturn?

 

It's silly, IMHO, to think that still screens prove anything in that regard.

[kevincal]

LOL it's so obvious that is 16-bit it's not even funny... ok it IS funny...

[kevincal]

And YOU would try to even make a comparison with a SNES game vs a PS game... Your hate for the PS is so obvious dude... lol

[Jaguarandine]

I was going to add something to this argument then I remembered....

 

 

 

Btw, you should come back Spiffy. Marvel is dying and 3rd Strike is now king; although its reputation was tarnished a little bit at last year's Evo. Smash Bros is in, and Evo's finally got real corporate sponsorship.