LS_Dracon Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Thanks for these tests, gray is a neutral color, but looks good with dark green too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roland p Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) The kernel in this post: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/130990-anyone-think-ballblazer-is-possible-on-the-2600/?p=2820346 had colored lines instead of black. I'm not at home right now, but tonight I could experiment a little. Edited January 5, 2015 by roland p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roland p Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I now changed the background color to $D0 You can change it yourself in Stella by pressing '~' (debug window) and edit RAM location 80 (top left) Also, press space/fire for adjustment of the (moving) goal. rom_20150105.bin 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iesposta Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I now changed the background color to $D0 You can change it yourself in Stella by pressing '~' (debug window) and edit RAM location 80 (top left) Also, press space/fire for adjustment of the (moving) goal. I like $00 and $C0 the best. $D0 makes the bright green a bit dull. But I'll test it on different displays and post real word impressions because the $x0 value may not make much difference. Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LS_Dracon Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 I've tested with $02 and for me looks good : Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Random Terrain Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 If there will be no game variations, maybe the player could press the select switch to cycle through a handful of color choices for the lines. Then everybody could choose a color that would make them the happiest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haroldoop Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Has anyone seem this video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tkwWD_BWWQ 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 (edited) The 400/800, 5200, 7800 versions appear (to me) to be the best. Followed by the C64. The way the grid tiles "alias together" and the smooth instant scrolling really brings the sense of physics and momentum to the game. There's just so many things done right in the 400/800 version. I need to examine the 7800 version in greater detail, it looks to be faster and more responsive than the 400/800, impressive!In and of itself, the Apple II version isn't the flagship of BB. But I was completely blown away by it for technical reasons and knowing the funky video mapping and other limitations that had to be dealt with. And with no custom chips! That's a big plus.The ST version is dumb with the sprites looking like cutouts, as they typically do on anything "16-bit". And they didn't know what to do with the sound. They just tacked on more busy-ness. And this busy-ness detracts from the smooth moody gameplay that one can experience on the Atari 8-bit line.I would have expected more from the Amiga. Just another example of programmers not knowing what to do with a platform. Stuff on the Amiga and ST just seem too "demo-ee"..The other versions like MSX, ZXspectrum, Amstrad, and Famicon.. They're alright considering the limitations of those machines. I'm not as intimately familiar with those as I am other hardware so I can't comment with authority. But the Famicon one looks to suffer the same fate as the Amiga and ST by way of the hardware using a sprite rendering method that makes things look cheap and cut-out.I haven't personally played the PSX version, but it certainly looks to be a creative interpretation. But something is lost with all the added graphics and time consumption of FMV and multiple menus. And what happened to the green checkerboard grid? It got replaced by a future sports arena.. The jury's still out on this version.Looks like the VCS version has a lot to live up to. And I hope it compares favorably to the Atari 8-bit computer version when all is said and done. So far we seem to be on track and if things continue progressing as they have been I think we'll make it! Edited January 6, 2015 by Keatah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingnut4427 Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 (edited) . Edited January 6, 2015 by wingnut4427 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roland p Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 (edited) This project looks amazing ! I find it especially impressive the amount of time & effort that went into it.Thanks, I've put a lot of time in it, but not all of my time, sometimes a few months off, sometime a year. But there is still progression, and the project made me a competent (I think) 6502/vcs coder. I stumbled across this while looking for different versions of ballblazer for a video project. upon looking at the 1st endless checkerboard it made me wonder if you had considered using that code to create a space harrier game for the 2600 ?I've not considered yet, but I guess the checkerboard for space harrier could be simpler than the one for ballblazer since there are no borders to draw on the left/right side (the brown tiles). Edit: I just checked the atari 8-bit version, and they just ommit the checkerboard and draw horizontal lines. Most effort will be in drawing all the objects/enemies. I must admit, as a game, ballblazer interest me not that much, it's more the technology behind it, and the timeframe it's developed in (released in 1984). If I can turn it into a game I like myself, that would be nice. Also are you still working on this project ? I would like to feature it in my video. Thanks !Yes, I'm still working on this project. The last kernel shows almost all of the objects, and the goals move. Now I have to put a ball in it, and the gameplay has to be programmed further (only acceleration/friction/bouncing/moving goals yet). Edited January 6, 2015 by roland p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 This could possibly be among the top 5 technical achievements in VCS programming. I personally never bought into the BallBlazer background story much. I had little or no interest. For me BB was all about two-player split-window and just hovering across the grid and enjoying the 3D-like perspective. Heck we were kids back then and real BMX was also important, so we didn't have time to read the stories behind most games. The only time I got cerebral with games were some late-nite text adventures, or those interactive stories as Infocom liked to call them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iesposta Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Once you know 2 facts, and have a human opponent, this game becomes fun and exciting! 1. You always face the ball. 2. When you have the ball you always face the direction of the goal. That's it. One on one soccer (football). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingnut4427 Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I know this question may be stupid. I don't know what is involved with programming a game on such an old system but looking back at the interleced rom it made me wonder if it were possible to interlace between a playfield & a sprite & do it at it's maximum speed to create the illusion that the playfield & sprites are there at the same time ?Again.. I don't know how all this is done. I'm just throwing it out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roland p Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) I think any type of flicker is unacceptable. The 'interlacing' was a nice try, but in the end it doesn't add much. Edited January 7, 2015 by roland p 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iesposta Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I think any type of flicker is unacceptable. The 'interlacing' was a nice try, but in the and it doesn't add much.As I posted earlier, a properly formed scan line display can be output from 2600 true interlaced, and will de interlace by the display and NOT flicker, plus you have the benefit of breaking one frame into odd and even skipped lines where you would double the cycle time per frame. Anyway, too advanced, and oly been proven in demo and not games. It is quite specific, but then outputting a stable picture from the 2600 is specific. I think it is 262.5 scan lines, deinterlaces into 524 actual lines. Sprites look quite cool because they are softer and less jagged. I tested different ROMs with the following skip line colors, on RF, Composite and S-Video systems. Turns out 02 is a great suggestion (and my C0 C2 very bad suggestion), followed by black 00, and your D0 (except on D0 on S-Video made the out of bounds bad). I could still do a few more tests on a 2nd cheaper CRT, but here is what I noticed so far: Ball Blazer notes Sears heavy 6 RF Sony CRT WEGA 00 blending in dark brown out of bounds squares 02 dark green playfield slight blending in light brown out of bounds squares 04 nice blending in light green and dark green playfield out of bounds squares hard to see mostly brown C0 nice dark green squares playfield completely ruins out of bounds brown to a dark dark muddy green C4 nice lightened playfield totally ruined outer brown muddy out of bounds D0 nice straight playfield clear defined out of bounds light and dark Overall 02 looks best 7800 composite modification 00 are playfield and out of bounds squares Look normally coloured and striped 02 blending in dark green playfield squares blending in dark brown out of bounds squares 04 nice blending on dark green playfield overall green playfield lighter out of Dounce playfield dark brown blended light brown striped C0 ruins out of bounds colours C2 salad green dark green playfield squares pretty much ruined is out of bounds area C4 extremely striped busy playfield out of bounds hard to see squares D0 overall straight playfield dark and light look good out of bounds dark Square is blended like brown squares striped Overall 02 & D0 looks best Atari four switch S-Video HDTV 00 everything looks clear striped playfield striped out of bounds 02 lighter playfield more solid dark green, out of bounds slight light brown striped dark brown brown 04 overall lighter playfield and out of bounds C0 very green out of bounds more solid green playfield squares less notice of striped Lake green playfields C2 solid dark green playfield squares overall green out of bounds with light colours solid and dark colours striped C4 very bright playfield very green out of bounds D0 more vibrant green playfield greener out of bounds TINT bad. Overall 02 for less striped look, 00 for clear stripe look. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LS_Dracon Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) I must admit, as a game, ballblazer interest me not that much, it's more the technology behind it, and the timeframe it's developed in (released in 1984). If I can turn it into a game I like myself, that would be nice. It's a good concept, not really well executed. I think the problem is the ball, too fast, the gameplay overall is not good. I think this concept was more suited for a game Snes F-Zero like, with visible rotofoils and rotating background using shoulders buttons to align the ball with goal beams. Then you could have a power bar to thrust against the opponent, but taking care to not blow up your rotofoil if power is low and so on. I don't know if the PSX version play like this. Edited January 7, 2015 by LS_Dracon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iesposta Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 AND THE WINNER IS... $02! I tried my tests in the older RCA 32" CRT. (Heavy 6'er, RF signal direct, channel 3.) The best looking one has the dark gray value of $02 between the colors. What is interesting about this, close up you see color and not gray! See close-up pic: It really blends the overall display together, and looks good on different display technology (CRT/LCD) an different output (RF, Composite, and S-Video) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 What about making this configurable in a hidden menu somehow? Seeing that different values look better or worse on different display types.. I mean you're not going to be be able to please everyone.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Random Terrain Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 What about making this configurable in a hidden menu somehow? Seeing that different values look better or worse on different display types.. I mean you're not going to be be able to please everyone.. Similar agreeing post: atariage.com/forums/topic/130990-anyone-think-ballblazer-is-possible-on-the-2600/?p=3147029 If there will be no game variations, maybe the player could press the select switch to cycle through a handful of color choices for the lines. Then everybody could choose a color that would make them the happiest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Yeh something like that. In this day and age of increasing variety of display hardware there needs to be some way to fine tune the color output. Very much like how BITD you could select COLOR or B/W. While still playable - color looked better on color TVs and BW looked better on BW TVs. Sometimes to the point of playability or not hiding some game elements. The switch was essential. Today you can have s-video, composite, pal rf, ntsc rf, hdmi, cga, component, vga, hdmi, on a variety of display technologies like lcd, crt, oled, and each has different refresh rates or methods of blending colors and processing the signal. Not to mention upscalers and converters. Don't forget emulators and whatever else comes along. Or you can take the simple route and program for a basic ntsc rf setup. And just rely on the newer technologies to be "set-up" correctly and hope for the best. Take for example Space Rocks. Sometimes I play vector, sometime B/W, sometimes color or green-screen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roland p Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 I worked a bit on the 'physics', and now I got inter-rotofoil bouncing working. So rotofoils now bounce against each other and the borders. rom_20150727.bin 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djmips Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 Has anyone seem this video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tkwWD_BWWQ And now we have Rocket League! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djmips Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 I worked a bit on the 'physics', and now I got inter-rotofoil bouncing working. So rotofoils now bounce against each other and the borders. Nice! Is it just me or does the second player (bottom) have the controls backwards? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roland p Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Nice! Is it just me or does the second player (bottom) have the controls backwards?Yes, the view is rotated, but the controls not yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roryjr Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Tag for updates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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