frenchman Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 you should realise, that such statements tells a millions words about you, but nothing about the c64 guys. ... sorry, I dont really get whats your problem. I have said it uses 16 shades made out of 4 colors&dithering, which in fact it does. nothing else of anything what you imply above. can you accept basic facts? ... okay. show it in the code or show it in the screenshots: which pixels are repeated. you'd better just act like you havent ever stated this one. ... indeed. it is the same as your a8 example. no curved faces, no real light source. now what is your problem with that? ... dont change the subject. you have said this is something a c64 cant even get come close to. the fact is it can. it shows a more detailed tunel, and much bigger objects. one of them has infact plasma instead of gouraud on its sides. You know what? I stop acting on Wolfram's ignorant trolling. It's unbelievable, how infantile he is acting here. Argue turning, wrong thinking, faulty knowledge ... Not worthy to write one other word here... Okay - agree with this. No more feeding as of this moment. He did, didn't he. He just signed on here to show off and failed miserably. The last straw was the PWTP slogan, he thought it was an Inc. slogan when in fact it was a Corp slogan devised by JT. And then when he realises he's got it wrong again, he screams 'success'. Wolfram is a trolling loser indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 ...C64 has 16 colours in most game, Atari can only have 4 colours in game. On the Atari dithered colours are not allowed. On The C64 colour dithering reaches Atari qualities ... Their 16 color modes are overrated. They are not that flexible for graphics as they are for colored 40-column text. On the other hand, GTIA modes are not good for 40-column text, but good for 16+ color imagery... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 Original point was moving 8*1 2000+ sprites okay so let's stick to it. I used moving sprites for image enhancement. I change X position of sprites every scanline. They can just be moving sprites w/o image enhancement and the cycles will be the same. Sprite splitting alone is no "movement". ... LDA #/STA 53248..53255 is used for splitting sprites and for setting their position. Just think of the sprites as a rotate sphere around a face instead of image enhancement. >>Stop the bullcrap about x-position occurring twice; each sprite has an independent x position setting being the same is RARE occurrence and even when it does occur you need to use a modified kernel and even then, Atari also gains those same cycles. >Modified Kernel? Why would I need a modified Kernel? Because in order to save up the cycles for a repeat position which is a RARE occurrence, you need to omit the LDA/STA for the hpos and do some other register. >The reason why you need to reposition the PMs that often is, that they only cover 40 pixels a rasterline so if you want to enhance a 160 px image you need to move the PMs where you just need them. But the players/missiles can be different colors. >Ok but on C64 you don't need to do that at all. The sprites are already 192 pixels per rasterline, there is simply no need to reposition sprites to get them where you need because the entire screen is plastered with sprites already. Wherever you are in the image, there is a sprite. Fine that you are able to get 2000 non-moving sprite stripes on screen which don't move, but it's not a sign of A8 superiority if you need it for something that the C64 can do without it and can do it even better without it. You are dead wrong. They are moving sprites-- just by repeating "non-moving & don't move" in the same sentence won't help you here. Stop mixing up moving sprites with static ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmel_andrews Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 Whilst I've no problem with c64 users coming to the forum and posting (where neccessary) as it's nice to see what non atari users think of the A8 from a non atari users perspective/eyes...i do find it very boring and tedious when they hijack the thread into another 'my one's better/bigger then your one' Perhaps some of us A8 only users should go to one of the better c64 forums and start a similar thread there To trying to get back to 'the point' of the ORIGINAL POSTER and their question about Atari and c64 ports of the same game, my answer to that is, both ports would be equally good, however, it's a shame that certain titles Like Rescue on fractulas amongst others weren't totally recoded to taking advantage of that machines capabilities insteady of just blindly porting over that code without any feeling of exploitng that machines better features (I think that dropzone on the c64 suffered the same prob's as RoF (i.e the slower framerate/scrolling) Just because the c64 had more games support doesnt make the c64 a better machine... After all do any of the c64 users here have 'every' c64 game ever released or made....i doublt it, as just like the A8, their were some real bad'uns there (i.e very poor or bad games)...like Outrun for the c64 for instance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youki Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 From there, we all like what we like, and since this is AA, it's clearly Atari, and that is not an exclusive thing. Somebody goes and does something cool on a TI, C64, VIC, Oric, etc... and it's all retro. All cool, and maybe ports can happen! It is funny, i have never considered AtariAge as an pure Atari Site. For me "Atari Age" was more like a date in time. Like "Stone age" in the pre-history. So we talk about all what happened in that time not only Atari. The name Atari behing justified by the fact Atari was the first to introduce a post "pong type" video console. In Fact, for me , AtariAge was more or less synonymous of 8bitsAge. Of course there is lot of "Atari" things , Atari being a major actor of Videogame history , and mainly in U.S. (i guess this site is U.S based?). Personnaly , I registered here because of the Colecovision programming topics. And then i discover a very interresting forums , and funny thread as this never ending one. I like this kind of battle , it remind me the time where , in my country, we have friendly war between Amstrad CPC users and C64 users (Atari being unfortunaly almost inexistant in our 8bit war) , or Atari ST vs Amiga. There are very nice guys here, but unfortunaly i have the feeling that some are taking too seriously this kind of battle. Men it is is just a game! Keep kool And be sure that your machine is the best ... for you and it is that is important! That is funny also, is you consider all these wars.. the only winner in fact is.... the PC!!!... and i 'd said unfortunaly. Anyway we all agreed that C64 is the best 8bits of this area! (i'm just kidding...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfram Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 Flat shaded cubes on the C64 are the same as complex polygone based shapes on the Atari. So the C64 can do the same as the A8 can do. The "Big polygone based rotating object" is nothing but a flat bitmap/charmap filling object, and the colors are enhanced with transitions to have at least the view of 8 colours. this is what you call a flat shaded non polygone object. and you call me a troll, when you just lie straight into everyone's face when the screenshot you have provided prooves you wrong in your very same post. link for proof: http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?s...t&p=1727154 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfram Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 (edited) He did, didn't he. He just signed on here to show off and failed miserably. The last straw was the PWTP slogan, he thought it was an Inc. slogan when in fact it was a Corp slogan devised by JT. And then when he realises he's got it wrong again, he screams 'success'. Wolfram is a trolling loser indeed. the atari 8 bit fans willingly create screens with that slogan, sporting cheap is good ("power without the price"), in the same time a8 fans call c64 for being cheap, bad. prooves the bias. Edited April 16, 2009 by Wolfram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfram Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 Their 16 color modes are overrated. They are not that flexible for graphics as they are for colored 40-column text. yeah, this picture just prooves that: the cpu can sit iddle while showing this. you need cpu intervention just to get more than a few colors (not shades). and even so you're nowhere near to this flexibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfram Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 Just because the c64 had more games support doesnt make the c64 a better machine... well for one thing: that simple fact made almost all a8 fans to buy a c64. while almost no "original" c64 user went out to get a8. this 2 facts tells a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 Their 16 color modes are overrated. They are not that flexible for graphics as they are for colored 40-column text. yeah, this picture just prooves that: the cpu can sit iddle while showing this. you need cpu intervention just to get more than a few colors (not shades). and even so you're nowhere near to this flexibility. Okay... that was disturbing. Please don't post the C64 version of goatse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the maddestman Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 Their 16 color modes are overrated. They are not that flexible for graphics as they are for colored 40-column text. yeah, this picture just prooves that: Yup, it does, it looks like a 16 colour picture made up with a fixed palette. Yuk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youki Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 Their 16 color modes are overrated. They are not that flexible for graphics as they are for colored 40-column text. yeah, this picture just prooves that: the cpu can sit iddle while showing this. you need cpu intervention just to get more than a few colors (not shades). and even so you're nowhere near to this flexibility. Could somebody take the same picture and do it on a A800 ? It could be interresitng to compare the result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfram Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfram Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roland p Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 (edited) The picture will never get better if you use the C64's image as source Someone should get the original photo of this couple Edited April 16, 2009 by roland p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fröhn Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 I prefer some nicer C64 pictures: CPU on idle (160x200): CPU supports VIC2 to fetch more colors (160x200): CPU supports VIC2 to fetch more colors + sprite layer (320x200): Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youki Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 I prefer some nicer C64 pictures: CPU on idle (160x200): CPU supports VIC2 to fetch more colors (160x200): CPU supports VIC2 to fetch more colors + sprite layer (320x200): the 2 images where you say it fetchs more color , in fact don't have more color here. (at least in your snapshop). The girl has 16 colors , and the eagle has only 14. and the flowers 16. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allas Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 All those picture looks great, but here there is 29 colors... who can do more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fröhn Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 The girl has 16 colors , and the eagle has only 14. and the flowers 16. Not "more colors" in that sense. The color density is higher, you can use colors with less restrictions. Just like 160x200 on A8 the 160x200 is basically a 4 color mode, but the VIC2 reads new colors for every 4x8 pixel block. That's what happens in the first picture. The 2nd picture uses the CPU to artificially reduce the color cell size to 4x1 pixels. The 3rd picture is very difficult to explain since it uses a low priority sprite layer + raster colors + reduced color cell sizes + hires mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 oh...how long do we have to see the 21st century pic? is there no other "g2f" like overlay pic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fröhn Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 All those picture looks great, but here there is 29 colors... who can do more? Yup nice picture. I also liked the one from the Recall demo. By alternating 2 colors of the same luminance you can mix the chrominance on a PAL monitor. This can be done on C64 too since it has 7 pairs of same-luma-but-different-chroma colors. Here's a picture which uses that PAL feature: On A8 that features is also possible (that's why the 256 color mode works) but for normal palette it's not as useful because you can select chroma for each luma anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youki Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 All those picture looks great, but here there is 29 colors... who can do more? when i count color in your snap , there are 7931 colors. It seems a graphic filter (may put by the emulator?) has been apply on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youki Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 119 colors on that one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roland p Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 All those picture looks great, but here there is 29 colors... who can do more? when i count color in your snap , there are 7931 colors. It seems a graphic filter (may put by the emulator?) has been apply on it. That is caused by resizing the image. If you view the image at 100%, there are exactly 29 colors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fröhn Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 (edited) oh...how long do we have to see the 21st century pic? is there no other "g2f" like overlay pic? It's very hard to paint in that mode, that's why only few pictures for it exist. Most gfx guys take the easier way by just using two 160x200 pictures + interlace to have flickering fake 320x200. Here's another example for a picture in that mode (drawn by the same guy): Edited April 16, 2009 by Fröhn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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