"New Drives" for MIO

[venom4728a]

HMMM, Last week I ordered the ACARD AEC-7720UW SCSI-IDE that came inside of a SCSI external enclosure, This is an Ultra Wide version of that card. I got it off of EBAY for 45.00 Dollars. I hope it is just a matter of converting Ultra Wide to Ultra and it will still work with MIO. if not I will be shelling out 134.00 for the Ultra version. What is the best price anyone has seen on that adapter?

 

Venom4728a@yahoo.com

[sloopy]

think at the prices of these things i will just buy an SCA drive and adaptor... i can probly get almost a tb's of space for just the cost of ide-scsi adaptor...

 

sloopy.

[Mathy]

Hello guys

 

I bought something simular a while ago on eBay. It's either new or never used before. It's called R-IDSC-E and costs a lot less (30-40 USD I guess). Unfortunately, I haven't found out yet, which jumpers I have to set so it'll work correctly with my BlackBox.

 

sincerely

 

Mathy

[MEtalGuy66]

Hello guys

 

I bought something simular a while ago on eBay. It's either new or never used before. It's called R-IDSC-E and costs a lot less (30-40 USD I guess). Unfortunately, I haven't found out yet, which jumpers I have to set so it'll work correctly with my BlackBox.

 

sincerely

 

Mathy

 

Unfortunately, Mathy, I'm afraid it's not likely that one will work. The firmware SUCKS on those.. Theres a slim chance it MIGHT work on the Blackbox, but certainly not on the MIO.

 

By contrast, the IDSC21 (earlier IO DATA bridge) is the one you want. The one Warerat used. These work really well.

 

The R-IDSC-E was the later version that CLAIMED to also be compatable with earlier devices, but is not.. IO DATA is out of business now.. Go figure..

 

I would totally reccomend the ACARD, as they are much easier to find, and reportedly work flawlessly in a huge range of applications.

[MEtalGuy66]

Hmm I wonder if this one works:

 

eBay Auction -- Item Number: 260666993189

 

Says it's for industrial applications, and it's a standard 50pin interface.. If so, I guess we could stick a 2TB drive on the ATARI.. heheh..

[+bf2k+]

Thanks to Slor (James), I have confirmed that the ACARD AEC-7720U SCSI-IDE bridge works well with the MIO using the latest firmware.

 

I tried it with several IDE hardisks, as well as with a Transcend 128meg flash module. This thing is really nice because it has jumpers to enable termination, as well as terminator bus power. (Set both to ON).. This thing is really fast. If you want a "no fuss" soultion, that offers the best possible performance (as well as an extremely wide range of compatability with cheap/common IDE devices), this appears to be the way to go.

 

Does it require any mods to the MIO?

[Roydea6]

Thanks to Slor (James), I have confirmed that the ACARD AEC-7720U SCSI-IDE bridge works well with the MIO using the latest firmware.

 

How would I get the latest firmware for MIO hardware.??

[MEtalGuy66]

Does it require any mods to the MIO?

 

It shouldnt. If your MIO works with the seagate drives that warerat was using, then it should also work with the ACARD bridge.

 

It's worked with every IDE device Ive tried so far.. Right now, Ive got it booting off an IDE 100meg IOMEGA ZIP drive.. The MIO firmware reports the correct number of sectors, sector size, and all..

Edited October 30, 2010 by MEtalGuy66

[MEtalGuy66]

How would I get the latest firmware for MIO hardware.??

 

The latest public release is 1.4b3 and is available in the "New MIO Production Run" thread in this forum.

[UNIXcoffee928]

I use modern SCSI LVD drives in servers & workstations, so, perhaps, I can offer some useful info, even though I don't have a MIO to test with. I deal with a lot of drives... I run a datacenter-based music recording facility, so as you may imagine, I deal with them by the box-full. The following info is just what I have found, using these drives daily... it may or may not be applicable to the MIO, but most of it should be. In any case, I'll describe the lowest cost scenario for achieving the Highest Performance with this type of technology. It helps to have an extra PC around, specifically to do testing and drive prep work. OK, so here we go: 

 

I stick with Seagate manufactured drives. If I buy anything it is always u320, which is a decent spec, and is fully downward compatible with every SCSI spec (excluding, obviously, the HVD spec). This way, I can always re-purpose the drive at a later date, if necessary.

 

I, personally, have not encountered any problems related to firmware differences, when using OEM drives (IBM or HP branded Seagates).

 

There is an excellent Windoze-based utility, called "hdtune", which I use for benchmarking purposes. You may find this utility useful, when selecting & preparing your drives for the Atari. The utility will collect statistical info about drive performance, and will also provide detailed info about the drive itself. 

 

After I run tests, the program allows me to copy all of the collected data (from both the statistics tab, and the drive info tab). I then paste the info into a text file that supports vertical pasting (I use: ConTEXT). This allows me to build reference tables comparing different drives, and different controllers, and gives me all of the info necessary to tweak a hard-disk subsystem for performance.

 

From my experience collecting data, I will tell you that there is a BIG difference in Access Time associated with Rotational Speed. A 15K RPM drive will certainly outperform a 10K or lower drive, just based on it's mechanical spec, alone, when your chief focus is Access Time.

 

A large buffer on the drive will even out Average Throughput, regardless of drive speed. ...So when buying, always buy u320 15K drives, the bigger the buffer, the better.

 

You will find that you can find these drives cheaply, particularly in lot on ebay. Be careful, buying single drives, though, don't spend more then 20 bucks a drive, some ebay sellers are high. Sometimes, in lots, you can get the above spec drives for $5-7.00 per drive, if you are a good shopper.

 

Your best bargains are with 80 pin drives. You can get 80 to 68 pin adapters dirt cheap, particularly if you buy lots, to save on shipping. 

 

Be aware that these drives will all work in SE Mode, so they are downward compatible with your Atari. As of now, (on the used, ebay market) your best bargains are on 36GB drives. There is no point in buying an old obsolete drive with a slow rotational speed, to use with vintage gear.

 

Don't skimp on drive cables, though. Buy the expensive ones, to ensure functionality, performance, and later re-purposing.

 

Always use Active Termination with the drives, and be sure to get u320 capable Multimode Terminators.

 

So, in summary, find: 80 pin (SCA) 15K RPM u320 Seagate 36GB drives with say, an 8MB buffer. Buy high quality twisted 68 pin u320 SCSI cabling. Buy u320 Multimode Active Terminators.

 

Most of the drives in lots were formerly in RAID-based drive arrays, so it is a very good idea to run a SCSI controller's SCSI BIOS-based drive check, to ensure that your new drives have full data integrity. Personally, I also run a SCSI BIOS-based format on all new drives, regardless of 'Conventional Wisdom'. An ebay drive has gone through the tortures of shipping, and whatever the Previous Owner was using the drive for. This falls into the "Better Safe than Sorry" category, and is my Standard Operating Procedure. It works very well for me.

 

As a side note, you will find that hdtune will often give you your real numbers. These numbers will not be pretty when you compare them to the manufacturer's spec-sheet. Live with it, lol. Ha, seriously, though, most of your loss is in your PC's bus. Many older PCs, servers, and workstations have buses with varied capabilities. The bus tends to be the Chief Performance Bottleneck... always. The only thing that you can do, in PC-based systems is play with the PCI timing in BIOS. If your SCSI controller is the only card, it is much easier to give it lots of time. In my case, there are Audio Cards, too, and this gets tricky, because you have to really balance the timing (by hand) with what you have to work with. 

 

Other than that, keep your drives cool. I use a PC case fan for every 3 drives, and allow air-flow space between each drive. Fans have widely varied noise levels... the most expensive tend to be the quietest... this starts to become a problem once you have a large number of drives. Those surplus heat-sinks in your bottom drawer help with heat on drives, too.

 

I get a lot of mileage out of "Art Foam" commonly found at hobby & Craft stores. An X-Acto & a T-Square will make these foam sheets do wonders for all components sensitive to vibration, and /or capable of creating noise via vibration. Use them between the drive & drive bracket, when you screw them in. Art Foam can easily be made into washers, too... just 'sharpen' the edge of a pen-cap with an X-Acto, and use it for a "cookie-cutter"... instant foam-washers. Electrical Tape is also good for covering edges of aluminum in the drive-bay area.

 

Black cloth-type duct-tape can also help to cut down on vibration characteristics of cases. Use it anywhere there are wide spaces (inside the case, both sides). Art Foam can be glued over this to really reduce vibration (with 3M spray adhesive). This is an excellent trick for inside of Server Racks, too. Of course, don't block any vents, and be sure to use enough fans to counteract the thermal effects of all of this Anti-Vibration-Insulation. In certain scenarios I have also used layers of closed cell packing foam, inside of server racks (on the side walls) to an excellent effect. Just remember, these tricks make it harder for heat to radiate out, so, you have to increase your cooling. You will find that a lot of the fan noise that emanates from server races escapes through the edges of the doors. First, be sure your rubber trim is installed properly (no spaces), then use a rubberized tape along all door edges. Personally, I use OSHA-approved "Hazard Tape" on my doors. Provides a great rubberized seal, and just looks fookin' awesome, in a Missile-Base Decorating-Tip kinda way, lol. Really quiets down noisy server racks, and no more 'walking into open doors' 'stupid human tricks'...lol...

 

Though I haven't had an opportunity to try it, Open-Celled-foam Acoustic Tiles would probably be the most ideal noise reducer, in racks & cases with ample room. You can get it cheaply in 'Remnants' on ebay.

 

I've covered a lot here, so I'll stop, but first, one more thing... to help avoid the Grue of All Problems... "Ground Loops"... (ARRRG/GRRRR) Always plug everything in to AC with a "Star Topography"... don't daisy-chain power-strips... instead, plug one power-strip into the wall, then plug six power-strips into the one plugged into the wall. This will also ensure correct surge suppression. There are good values on large power-distribution units (B.M.F.-Power-Strips), Tripp-Lite is a good brand. Other than that, use grounding straps to all rack or case panels & doors. My own personally contrived trick is to be sure that the cases of rack equipment are COMPLETELY isolated from grounding on a metal rack... 

 

The average advice is to use recessed nylon rack washers... most admins only use them in the front, to protect from Rack-Rash... you need them in the back too!.

 

Now, my personal trick is this: use your RJ-45 stripper to cut equally sized bolt-sheaths out of standard surgical tubing. This works with both M6 & 10-32 rack screws... put the outer nylon washer onto the bolt, then screw the bolt into the surgical-tube sheath that you just made, by holding the sheath with pliers, and using a screwdriver to screw the bolt into the tubing. Put the bolt through the rack-ear, THEN insert the Rear (Flat) nylon washer before screwing the component into the cage-nut. This hack will ensure that the only grounding that you are getting is from your ground plug, NOT the CASE, itself, because NO metal is touching, whatsoever, on the rack screw.

 

You may be lucky, not doing all of this, but if the Unfathomably Horrible Ground Loop Issue ever comes your way, you'll know where to start. A lot of us have a lot of equipment plugged in, so, this should be valuable info, even to those without server racks. There are a lot of other good techniques to reduce 60hz hum, but I'll stop here.

 

I realize that a lot of this is waaaaay outside the scope of the thread, but, hopefully, the info that I have provided will help you out when dealing with any hard disk subsystem, no matter how you are using it, or how you have it mounted. Enjoy.

 

 

[MEtalGuy66]

Dude.. Seriously.. The atari can do like 100 *KILOBYTES* per second raw data transfer, provided any OS level functions and hardware specific handlers are suitably streamlined.. On a SCSI-II drive from 1992, this is less than 1/10th of the drive's capable throughput..

 

Aside from eliminating bus errors on the primary SCSI chain between the MIO and the device (or adapter), we are talking a fraction of a percentage point of the speed the drive is capable of, on a modern Drive. The reason we are using the particular family of 80 pin drives that we are is that they happen to support a really old legacy arbitration mode that is NOT supported by 95% of embedded SCSI drives on the market for the past 20 years (Seagate or otherwise).. We recently found out that a couple of models of SCSI-IDE bridge also correctly recognize this legacy arbitration mode.

 

The MIO is not a true "full implementation" of the SCSI standard. It is missing bidirectional control of one line, which keeps it from performing selection/arbitration on devices which do not either a)date back to the SASI era or B)Just HAPPEN to include this mode in their firmware. The "cheetah" series of 10,000rpm SCA drives from Seagate happens to be one such family of drives.

 

Anywayze, thats a great article about your personal experience, dealing with large arrays of SCSI drives. I found it very informative, and if I ever put something like that together, I'll definitely use it as a basis for planning my istallations.

[UNIXcoffee928]

Dude.. Seriously.. The atari can do like 100 *KILOBYTES* per second raw data transfer, provided any OS level functions and hardware specific handlers are suitably streamlined.. On a SCSI-II drive from 1992, this is less than 1/10th of the drive's capable throughput..

 

Aside from eliminating bus errors on the primary SCSI chain between the MIO and the device (or adapter), we are talking a fraction of a percentage point of the speed the drive is capable of, on a modern Drive. The reason we are using the particular family of 80 pin drives that we are is that they happen to support a really old legacy arbitration mode that is NOT supported by 95% of embedded SCSI drives on the market for the past 20 years (Seagate or otherwise).. We recently found out that a couple of models of SCSI-IDE bridge also correctly recognize this legacy arbitration mode.

 

The MIO is not a true "full implementation" of the SCSI standard. It is missing bidirectional control of one line, which keeps it from performing selection/arbitration on devices which do not either a)date back to the SASI era or B)Just HAPPEN to include this mode in their firmware. The "cheetah" series of 10,000rpm SCA drives from Seagate happens to be one such family of drives.

 

Anywayze, thats a great article about your personal experience, dealing with large arrays of SCSI drives. I found it very informative, and if I ever put something like that together, I'll definitely use it as a basis for planning my istallations.

 

Ha, yeah, I know that it's like using hydrogen bombs to exterminate termites, (hahahaha) but the point that I wanted to make, with regard to MIO is in the paragraph block: 

 

 "From my experience collecting data, I will tell you that there is a BIG difference in Access Time associated with Rotational Speed. A 15K RPM drive will certainly outperform a 10K or lower drive, just based on it's mechanical spec, alone, when your chief focus is Access Time."

 

 

In my estimation, you should be able to ACCESS those 100K per second bytes faster, if you use a 15K RPM drive. This hypothesis is based on my experience with Access Times on drives with different mechanical rotation speeds. So, the user-perceived "Loading Time" will be less, because the drive will mechanically go to the right place 2-4 ms faster, every time you load something. It should give a slight performance boost. ...& obviously, as you correctly stated, it will do absolutely nothing for Data Throughput.

 

Other than that, modern 15K drives are much less noisy than older, slower drives, and they tend to have better thermal characteristics (they are better engineered, with the experience gained from going from 5K to 7K to 10K to 15K RPM... early 10K drives ran hotter than 7200, modern 15K drives run cooler.).

 

So, as long as you don't run into the firmware problems that you described, you should have better user-perceived load-time using a 15K drive. Since you know that the Cheetahs work, try a 15K Cheetah, it may feel faster.

 

Glad that you enjoyed the post. PM me when you build your system, and I'll help you out with more detailed info. I probably should write a book on Rack Installations & Drive Subsystem Best-Practices... Goodness knows that over the years I've encountered & overcome so many dastardly Gotchas with these beasts. I am pretty detail-oriented, so, it gives me a lot of personal satisfaction to "Do it Right". The problem with huge setups, though, is that it takes a lot of time to find out exactly "What is Right"... ha. It is usually a looooong painful process, with plenty of pitfalls that you are not even aware of, until they rear their ugly head. Hopefully the info that I provided will save you many "DO, RE-DO, DO, RE-DO, DO, RE-DO, DO" steps, which can get old real fast, when you have hundreds of connections to make.

 

* Another good tip is to use colored "Split-Loom Tubing" to make all of your cabling nice, and divide it by functionality. Also, if you lace your AC lines (not too tightly) before tubing them, you will reduce RF emissions. Gawd, I gotta get a girlfriend. lol.

 

Some of the things that I've learned are things that are just not available info... for example, who would think that a server rack would resonate like the most ugly metallic reverb that you've ever heard, when you have a Marshall full-stack anywhere near it... lol... solving simple problems like that prompted me to get the Duct Tape & Packing Foam out... ha. Yeah, so, the stuff that I typed up up there is largely not info that you will find anywhere else. Other things, like Ground Loops don't often show up regularly in IT centers, but then again, you don't often have large PA amps in datacenters, either, lol. Most of that stuff up there is from me solving peculiar & annoying problems.

 

 

[+bf2k+]

Thanks to Slor (James), I have confirmed that the ACARD AEC-7720U SCSI-IDE bridge works well with the MIO using the latest firmware.

 

How would I get the latest firmware for MIO hardware.??

 

Post #92 of this thread - 1.4.0 is the latest

[MEtalGuy66]

http://www.rasterline.com/drives.html

[+bf2k+]

http://www.rasterline.com/drives.html

 

Very nice resource.

[BillC]

It would be interesting if the Rorke Data Galaxy 6i, available in this eBay auction for GBP 60.00, would work with an MIO. I guess it would depend if the SCSI controller it uses works without bidirectional control of the one line which the MIO doesn't support.

 

Used systems like this, when you can find them, can cost less than the individual SCSI to IDE converters already discussed. The disadvantages would be the size, and the cost of shipping would be a lot more.

 

It is a managed Ultra 160 SCSI-to-IDE Disk Array Subsystem, which supports RAID 0,1,0+1,3,5,1+Spare,3+Spare,5+Spare. The manual is available from Rorke.com, under technical documentation, then legacy.

 

Bill

[spookt]

Hey Folks

 

With many thanks to Ken's patient help and my realisation that the PSU I was powering my drive from was either duff or under powered my MIO is now humming. What an awesome device

 

I was wondering how any other MIO user who is also using something like the ACard AEC-7720U SCSI-IDE bridge metioned above has coped with mounting the bridge in some kind of enclosure. I was thinking of picking one up since I have a number of IDE drives hanging about and it looks like it answers all the termination and term power issues neatly. I can see that you could probably hang it off the side of the MIO and then run a ribbon to the drive. Has anyone figured a better way to do it.

 

I'm guessing that not many folks are using that bridge card due to the cost but if any of you are and have suggestions I'd be interested.

[+Larry]

Hi Spookt-

 

I need to try that with my MIO. I tried earlier than the final released firmware and had no luck. The thinking at that time was that a SCSI-IDE bridge was very unlikely to ever work with the MIO. So I was very pleasantly surprised to read that it does now work.

 

Anyway, I've run my Black Box with the ACARD 7720U both with 2.5 -- 3.5" drives and with compact flash devices. I bought a couple of nice SUN enclosures pretty reasonably off eBay (U.S.). One is a drive enclosure like Warerat's (pictured earlier); the other is a tape drive enclosure that I had to put a 5-1/4" drive front cover on. Think I paid less than $25 each including shipping, so about $10-15 for each enclosures. The bridge works very well on the BB, so I'm hopeful for the MIO. Like many things, when these ACARD's were originally "surplus" they were really cheap -- then they evidently got harder to find. Good luck!

 

-Larry

 

Hey Folks

 

I was wondering how any other MIO user who is also using something like the ACard AEC-7720U SCSI-IDE bridge metioned above has coped with mounting the bridge in some kind of enclosure. I was thinking of picking one up since I have a number of IDE drives hanging about and it looks like it answers all the termination and term power issues neatly. I can see that you could probably hang it off the side of the MIO and then run a ribbon to the drive. Has anyone figured a better way to do it.

 

I'm guessing that not many folks are using that bridge card due to the cost but if any of you are and have suggestions I'd be interested.

[+bf2k+]

I've been thinking about getting an ACARD myself - lots of IDE drives (multiple sizes and footprints) around here. But $150...

[spookt]

Yeah - I found them over here for about £100 GBP but it works out about the same plus you'd have to ship.

 

TBH if I can get the drive I have now into an enclosure and be confident that the termination etc is all good I might not bother. Then again it might be worth grabbing one while they're still around since it seems to work so well with the MIO.

[MEtalGuy66]

The Acard is designed to hang off the back of the drive. It has a female connector on the IDE side, so it plugs directly into the IDE drive..

[spookt]

The Acard is designed to hang off the back of the drive. It has a female connector on the IDE side, so it plugs directly into the IDE drive..

 

Hehe, yeah I realised this yesterday when looking at a different picture! So I guess it should just sit in a SCSI drive enclosure.

[+Larry]

I got around to hooking up the ACARD 7720U bridge with a Sandisk CF today, and it worked great! It runs about 10% faster overall than the Black Box with an identical setup. I got (roughly) 17K Reading and 15K Writing with Drac030's RWTEST.COM, using 256-byte sectors and MyDos 4.50. The Black Box by comparison reads about 20K but writes only 9K. When I "filled" my MIO HD from an APE HD image, it also ran about 10% faster than the Black Box -- 21 minutes versus 23 minutes for 20,000 sectors.

 

Still some things I've got to check, but this is a sweet setup! Thanks, Sergio and Ken! BTW, I do not have the "F" series chips installed yet.

 

-Larry

[MEtalGuy66]

That must be a really slow CF card.. I get about 26k/23k per sec with the same setup.. And the blackbox doesnt even come close.. But then again, I dont use MyDOS.. so maybe that has something to do with it.. With 256 byte sectors, the disk based versions of SpartaDOS are about 2k/sec faster on average than SpartaDOS X 4.42..

[+Larry]

Yes, Sparta is quite a bit faster. Check out post 82 in this thread and there is an apples-to-apples comparison on my equipment. This CF is a little faster on writes than the drive I was using then. I've got some Ultra III cards, so I'll try one. But either way, I'm still quite happy with the results.

 

-Larry

 

That must be a really slow CF card.. I get about 26k/23k per sec with the same setup.. And the blackbox doesnt even come close.. But then again, I dont use MyDOS.. so maybe that has something to do with it.. With 256 byte sectors, the disk based versions of SpartaDOS are about 2k/sec faster on average than SpartaDOS X 4.42..