+GoldenWheels Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 They invented video games. Everyone knows that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wongojack Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 The internet has changed since this thread was started . . . The way people post on this board has changed . . . Retro gaming has changed . . . Nintendo has changed . . . And yet we can still argue about this topic. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatPix Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 (edited) Well, its important to remember people about some basic truth. In Europe, there is the growing belief that the NES was HUGE, that before the NES and during the NES era there was nothing else of note. Well, if you had come in Europe 20 years ago, people would have said that the NES was barely a blip on the retrogaming radar and that nothing worthy of note existed in front of the Holy Trinity of Amstrad CPC, Commodore 64 and ZX Spectrum. Aaaaannnd... neither is true. (but have some figures : the NES sold 1 million units in the UK, total, and in France, the best year for NES sales was in 1992, with 3 millions unit sold*. And 1 Million between 1986 and 1990) *and I don't know if that was 3 millions for the year 1992 alone, or 3 millions sold between 1987 and 1992. But people change, and things spread like wild fire. It's always important to "put the clocks back at the right time" every now and then : because when I listen to forums here, Nintendo did everything, Nintendo created everything. I keep hearing about the video game krach of 1983, and I have to explain to people that in 1983, the C64 appeared on most European markets, the ZX Spectrum was selling like hot cakes, the Amstrad CPC was going to hit the shelves, the PAL MSX was coming hot, Atari fans waited for the XL series to arrive, and the news about the upcoming Amiga and Atari ST in 1984 were all over the gaming newspapers. Simply said, people that say "Nintendo were crazy to release a console in 1983" are totally ignorant and just keep spreading that idea of an forward thinking company... Because they do'nt realize that the Krach of 1983 barely affected Europe and simply didn't happened in Japan. But you have more and more people thinking that, because there isn't anyone to remember them about such simple facts. And especially about all of this computer craze in Europe; mostly because the generation that used those computer didn't switched to consoles, so there is almost zero communication between the computer retrogamers and the console retrogamers in Europe - well, at least, in France. The UK might have more people sharing about this era... but they are also the first to spread the American video game history as the universal one - because they have immediate access to it. And no, that isn't a jab at the US (else I wouldn't be on this forum) but that is because new English retrogamers looking for infos on the internet will, sooner and later, find American sites and not realize that those sites talk about the US and not about Europe. Edited February 11, 2019 by CatPix 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 Yes, North America is pretty ignorant of the rest of the world, including Europe. It would be interesting to see numbers, though. I think there were 3 million CPCs, which is more in the Colecovision/Intellivision order of magnitude than what the NES did. It really was the first mainstream breakout console hit in USA since the Atari VCS, and the default game standard for a while, even as Euro computers split their nice market 3, 4, or 5 different ways. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youxia Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 (edited) Except that modding and expanding your computer was more part of the whole "computer" deal. And in computers too, many games would be stuck in the "let's keep compatible" mind. The innovations to the industry, which what this thread is all about, do not have to mean only hardware side. My comment was prompted more by the game programming/design itself, in relation to people talking of game endings, narratives, music, gfx etc and yet persisting in the same console-only bubble which threads like these are symptomatic of. Completely bypassing the whole micro-revolution (whic was booming before, during and after The Crash) is rather amusing. Akalabeth was released in 1979, c64 music was already mentioned and so on... Subsequent comments from flo/pac are symptomatic of that as well: okay, so my Amiga had one-button joystick, but perhaps I didn't care that much since I was playing Civ and other groundbreaking titles with a mouse? Turrican, IK+, Uridium, Speedball and other twitch-gaming classics coming from micros didn't mind that much either. A basic BASIC program may seem silly to people now but in reality these things were a gateway drug to serious programming and what sparked the bedroom coding revolution (folks who think today's indie one is unprecedented may reflect on it). Things like that The point is, nothing exists in a vacuum. You have jRPGs because the genre's forefathers were playing D&D, Ultima's and Wizardries to death. Pcmasterrace uses joypads (on the quiet) because they are great. Both fields coexisted and benefited from each other by osmosis. If you want to perceive history by console-tinted glasses it's okay, but it's not how it was in reality. Edited February 12, 2019 by youxia 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godslabrat Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 Thanks to nintendo... those damned kids stay off my lawn. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanooki Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 No they don't, they trample it walking all over looking for Pokemon Go captures and battling it out on their Switch. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatPix Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 (edited) The innovations to the industry, which what this thread is all about, do not have to mean only hardware side. My comment was prompted more by the game programming/design itself, in relation to people talking of game endings, narratives, music, gfx etc and yet persisting in the same console-only bubble which threads like these are symptomatic of. Completely bypassing the whole micro-revolution (whic was booming before, during and after The Crash) is rather amusing. Akalabeth was released in 1979, c64 music was already mentioned and so on... Subsequent comments from flo/pac are symptomatic of that as well: okay, so my Amiga had one-button joystick, but perhaps I didn't care that much since I was playing Civ and other groundbreaking titles with a mouse? Turrican, IK+, Uridium, Speedball and other twitch-gaming classics coming from micros didn't mind that much either. A basic BASIC program may seem silly to people now but in reality these things were a gateway drug to serious programming and what sparked the bedroom coding revolution (folks who think today's indie one is unprecedented may reflect on it). Things like that The point is, nothing exists in a vacuum. You have jRPGs because the genre's forefathers were playing D&D, Ultima's and Wizardries to death. Pcmasterrace uses joypads (on the quiet) because they are great. Both fields coexisted and benefited from each other by osmosis. If you want to perceive history by console-tinted glasses it's okay, but it's not how it was in reality. Fair enough! I was more thinking hardware wise. Also, I know the 8 bits side of computer history more than the 16/32 bits era - for some reason, I'm more into IBM-PC CGA/EGA games when it come to that time period - so I was under the impression that mouse-specific games were not the main thing. Although it doesn't change the fact that adapting beat-them-up games on the Amiga with only button for action was just showing how things were wrong back then on that regard. I mean, most games I tried does not offer the use of the keyboard to play, which would be an acceptable trade-off. But that's my personnal, limited experience with the Amiga and ST I got a mod to put games on a SD card on the Atari ST so I'll be able to play more game soon. But for 8 bits micros in Europe, the big rage was arcade games, and in 1984, one-buttons sticks were already obsolete. Sure most games could be player on keybard, but many used non-sensical layout (simply because on some machines, the joystick pins were linked to letters, if I recall well, things like QA and OP. Not quite comfortable to use. A few games offered to reattribute letters, but it wasn't the rule. Now despite (or because) of that, indeed, many genres of game were developped, and with how cheap game were, people weren't afraid to develop concepts that wouldn't appear again until years later.. and sometime not at all. There was a French game about mountain hicking... Avalanche? where you would prepare your backpack with foods, items, etc. It's a real time strategy game kind of genre... and amongst the items you could carry with you, was a gun. Because the game was "real time", so if you messed up, you either had to wait until your character froze to death, starved... or reboot the computer. Or use the gun and commit suicide. You don't see that kind of stuff anymore Edited February 12, 2019 by CatPix 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youxia Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 Avalanche? Not sure, I loved Chamonix though. Also early French games from Infogrames (yes! these guys) and Ubisoft were amazingly innovative. I wouldn't say arcade games dominated 8 bit micros...sure, we did want the ports (and believe it or not, some were quite amazing, like Renegade on ZX) but there was enough original stuff to make us forget about all that. Spectrum had Lords Of Midnight, Laser Squad, Dizzy and mindblowing isometric adventures such as Knight Lore or Movie (that one was really ahead of its time). C64 had lots of "serious" games such as Pirates! or Bard's Tale and Atari, even though its library was the weakest, also had a mixture of fun' n serious stuff. Similarly, sure, Amiga is infamous for some bad arcade ports but seriously, we didn't really care. One, because there were enough good action games anyway, and two, because of the aforementioned early "PC"-like games. Point'n click, strategy, cRPG, sims etc ruled the roost...there was a window in time when Amiga was the Queen Of The Hill, even the one rich kid I knew who had a PC (before SVGA) had to acknowledge its superiority. These were the days of early pcmasterrace I suppose. It is kinda interesting why micros were stuck with joysticks and nobody tried to adapt gamepads, which are no doubt superior for arcade-y gaming? I never really liked joysticks (even thou some actually had 2 buttons). In fact, when I moved from ZX to joy-only Commodore stuff, I kinda missed just redefining keys which was a feature found in most ZX games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.Cade Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 All I can think of offhand are the gamepad and the Wii controller. The gamepad existed on several 70's handheld electro-mechanical and electronic games. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pacman000 Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 And the Wii controller was anticipated by late 90's tilting controllers, lightguns, the Powerglove, etc. Combining it all & getting it to actually work was pretty cool tho. Nintendo definitely innovated, but I see their innovations as evolutionary rather than revolutionary; they reached great heights by standing on the shoulders of giants. But couldn't that saying apply to any video game, or inventions in general? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wongojack Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 Nintendo definitely innovated, but I see their innovations as evolutionary rather than revolutionary; they reached great heights by standing on the shoulders of giants. But couldn't that saying apply to any video game, or inventions in general? Yes 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetick1 Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 (edited) Do you mean never got a home port? Because it was in arcades, and I remember seeing it. Yeah, it's pisspoor. https://www.arcade-museum.com/game_detail.php?game_id=9743 Here's a sweet Spy Hunter remake for modern PCs. I like it a lot. "Highway Pursuit" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_Pursuit No I should have clarified I never saw Spy Hunter II at the arcade and I think I've seen most arcade machines released in the US. Oh yea I played "Highway Pursuit" about 15 years ago and liked it. I'm going to try the newer version released in '15 as I never played the latest version. It looks awesome. Edited February 14, 2019 by thetick1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanooki Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 I wouldn't be surprised if someone took a cruel shot at it years ago when this thread was made, but I don't care to necro read. But I do think there was a trail of innovation from them with the Virtual Boy of all things. No one had ever brought a dedicated 3D system to market by such methods at the time. Despite it failing in a year, it did succeed pretty well at what they set out to make it do for games to a fair degree, even if the true power of the system for 3D and gaming in general sadly went untapped. And that seed from the mid-90s came back just 20 years later with the full color stereoscopic panel on the 3DS/2DS line of systems which again had those nice layers and did much to make imagery pop at various levels without needing just red or some big ass goggles. No one at the time had bothered going there, still relying on ripping off the movie theaters with stupid specs on a TV instead of just having the TV do it or not itself. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Video Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 People often forget the rest of the world, that's true, but they also forget how damn big the U.S. Is as well for that matter. The video game crash simply never happened in much of the world, including a good chunk of the U.S. Also, selective memory, someone mentioned games didn't go away in Europe, and then proceed to list three examples of what was not then, there, all computers. Consoles didn't do as well due to lack of power, expandability and ram, etc. Games themselves didn't go away (even in the U.S.) They merely changed platforms. Another one I get a kick out of, often touted as "fact" is consoles did poorly due to arcades, or lack of arcade games. Huh? List the top games for atari, and most ARE arcade games. Coleco, hell, most it's library were arcade games. Doesn't seem to help them. I figure it's far, FAR more likely that people were tiring of arcade games, and computers offered something new, fresh and different. We got a 64, lots of people did back then. I never saw many arcade games for them back then, but what we did see was amazing new different stuff. We paid $600 for our 64, initially for one game. A little known title called "below the root" (kind of a side view adventure game with rpg elements) sure, more came later, things like the castles of Dr creep, mule, ad&d, mail order monsters, and a huge selection of other stuff, but very few arcade games. Gotta love rose tinted glasses, revisionist history, taking things out of context, rolling that shit in a ball, and passing it off as "historical fact" though. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 Well, its important to remember people about some basic truth. In Europe, there is the growing belief that the NES was HUGE, that before the NES and during the NES era there was nothing else of note. Well, if you had come in Europe 20 years ago, people would have said that the NES was barely a blip on the retrogaming radar and that nothing worthy of note existed in front of the Holy Trinity of Amstrad CPC, Commodore 64 and ZX Spectrum. Aaaaannnd... neither is true. (but have some figures : the NES sold 1 million units in the UK, total, and in France, the best year for NES sales was in 1992, with 3 millions unit sold*. And 1 Million between 1986 and 1990) *and I don't know if that was 3 millions for the year 1992 alone, or 3 millions sold between 1987 and 1992. But people change, and things spread like wild fire. It's always important to "put the clocks back at the right time" every now and then : because when I listen to forums here, Nintendo did everything, Nintendo created everything. I keep hearing about the video game krach of 1983, and I have to explain to people that in 1983, the C64 appeared on most European markets, the ZX Spectrum was selling like hot cakes, the Amstrad CPC was going to hit the shelves, the PAL MSX was coming hot, Atari fans waited for the XL series to arrive, and the news about the upcoming Amiga and Atari ST in 1984 were all over the gaming newspapers. Simply said, people that say "Nintendo were crazy to release a console in 1983" are totally ignorant and just keep spreading that idea of an forward thinking company... Because they do'nt realize that the Krach of 1983 barely affected Europe and simply didn't happened in Japan. But you have more and more people thinking that, because there isn't anyone to remember them about such simple facts. And especially about all of this computer craze in Europe; mostly because the generation that used those computer didn't switched to consoles, so there is almost zero communication between the computer retrogamers and the console retrogamers in Europe - well, at least, in France. The UK might have more people sharing about this era... but they are also the first to spread the American video game history as the universal one - because they have immediate access to it. And no, that isn't a jab at the US (else I wouldn't be on this forum) but that is because new English retrogamers looking for infos on the internet will, sooner and later, find American sites and not realize that those sites talk about the US and not about Europe. Well, its important to remember people about some basic truth. In Europe, there is the growing belief that the NES was HUGE, that before the NES and during the NES era there was nothing else of note. Well, if you had come in Europe 20 years ago, people would have said that the NES was barely a blip on the retrogaming radar and that nothing worthy of note existed in front of the Holy Trinity of Amstrad CPC, Commodore 64 and ZX Spectrum. Aaaaannnd... neither is true. (but have some figures : the NES sold 1 million units in the UK, total, and in France, the best year for NES sales was in 1992, with 3 millions unit sold*. And 1 Million between 1986 and 1990) *and I don't know if that was 3 millions for the year 1992 alone, or 3 millions sold between 1987 and 1992. But people change, and things spread like wild fire. It's always important to "put the clocks back at the right time" every now and then : because when I listen to forums here, Nintendo did everything, Nintendo created everything. I keep hearing about the video game krach of 1983, and I have to explain to people that in 1983, the C64 appeared on most European markets, the ZX Spectrum was selling like hot cakes, the Amstrad CPC was going to hit the shelves, the PAL MSX was coming hot, Atari fans waited for the XL series to arrive, and the news about the upcoming Amiga and Atari ST in 1984 were all over the gaming newspapers. Simply said, people that say "Nintendo were crazy to release a console in 1983" are totally ignorant and just keep spreading that idea of an forward thinking company... Because they do'nt realize that the Krach of 1983 barely affected Europe and simply didn't happened in Japan. But you have more and more people thinking that, because there isn't anyone to remember them about such simple facts. And especially about all of this computer craze in Europe; mostly because the generation that used those computer didn't switched to consoles, so there is almost zero communication between the computer retrogamers and the console retrogamers in Europe - well, at least, in France. The UK might have more people sharing about this era... but they are also the first to spread the American video game history as the universal one - because they have immediate access to it. And no, that isn't a jab at the US (else I wouldn't be on this forum) but that is because new English retrogamers looking for infos on the internet will, sooner and later, find American sites and not realize that those sites talk about the US and not about Europe. This should be framed/pinned/whatever and put up before anyone attempts to write a commercial article once again on the NES in the UK media. I can fully understand WHY UK magazines like RetroGamer and Gamestm over the years rewrote the history of how the NES and it's games were received in the UK at the time..Nintendo were providing one hellva lit of advertising revenue month in and month out..A publication lives or dies based on such revenue and your going to tailor your content to appease your paymasters. . But you cannot pass it off as historically correct. I think the damage however has been done. There's a whole market of readers out there who will have seen Nintendo presented as the saviour of even the UK games industry..All it's titles meet with such rapture etc etc...purely because it was in a commercial magazine like RG or Gamestm and ergo must be correct..no need to do even the most basic of research beyond what was printed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 (edited) @CatPix: Are you thinking of: Final Assault, known as Chamonix Challenge in Europe, originally Bivouac in French, the mountain-climbing simulation? In terms of original French games i would also mention Saipens: And flying the UK flag for original games..Denton Designs Eco: Edited February 14, 2019 by Lost Dragon 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatPix Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 YES! Bivouac That was it And, Sapiens was great too. Especially since it's originally a Thomson MO5 game I tend to forgot that it was one of the first, if not the first of his kind in the "sandbox survival" game genre. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 A-Ha glad i could help. I remember seeing what you know as Bivouac in various UK magazines , along with Saipens. .and thinking what unusual concepts for games. What no Ninjas/Aliens/Rambo types/Space Ships/cutesy characters? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatPix Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 Indeed. People forget that aspect too : markets were smaller, more fragmented, and so, there are treasure troves of original (if not good) games in each market. It's probably true of France and the UK which had their local computers. I'm not sure about other European countries. Well like Sapiens on the Thomson MO5. Thomson computers were aimed as educational products; There were almost no "international" publisher interested in developing for the Thomson line (probably because of the Motorola 6809 CPU which mean that you couldn't easily port game from the much more common Z80 computers) so even mediocre games would make decent sales on Thomson; so in such a market, people had much more freedom to develop an original concept; games like Sapiens would be "tested" on the Thomson computers, and if they worked, being ported on more popular and international machines. I mean, the game "Marche à l'ombre" ("walk in the shadow" which kinda mean "get the hell outta here") is about.... The various songs of the french Singer Renaud, especially the eponymous song and album Marche à l'ombre and his anti-heros Gerard Lambert which get his moped stolen. Who would make a game out of a song today? aside from Activision maybe 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 Indeed. People forget that aspect too : markets were smaller, more fragmented, and so, there are treasure troves of original (if not good) games in each market. It's probably true of France and the UK which had their local computers. I'm not sure about other European countries. Well like Sapiens on the Thomson MO5. Thomson computers were aimed as educational products; There were almost no "international" publisher interested in developing for the Thomson line (probably because of the Motorola 6809 CPU which mean that you couldn't easily port game from the much more common Z80 computers) so even mediocre games would make decent sales on Thomson; so in such a market, people had much more freedom to develop an original concept; games like Sapiens would be "tested" on the Thomson computers, and if they worked, being ported on more popular and international machines. I mean, the game "Marche à l'ombre" ("walk in the shadow" which kinda mean "get the hell outta here") is about.... The various songs of the french Singer Renaud, especially the eponymous song and album Marche à l'ombre and his anti-heros Gerard Lambert which get his moped stolen. Who would make a game out of a song today? aside from Activision maybe LOL you f'ing hipster ... you sound like me talking about early Macintosh games. We're in weird little niches and no one cares about us. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wongojack Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 Indeed. People forget that aspect too : markets were smaller, more fragmented, and so, there are treasure troves of original (if not good) games in each market. It's probably true of France and the UK which had their local computers. I'm not sure about other European countries. Well like Sapiens on the Thomson MO5. Thomson computers were aimed as educational products; There were almost no "international" publisher interested in developing for the Thomson line (probably because of the Motorola 6809 CPU which mean that you couldn't easily port game from the much more common Z80 computers) so even mediocre games would make decent sales on Thomson; so in such a market, people had much more freedom to develop an original concept; games like Sapiens would be "tested" on the Thomson computers, and if they worked, being ported on more popular and international machines. I mean, the game "Marche à l'ombre" ("walk in the shadow" which kinda mean "get the hell outta here") is about.... The various songs of the french Singer Renaud, especially the eponymous song and album Marche à l'ombre and his anti-heros Gerard Lambert which get his moped stolen. Who would make a game out of a song today? aside from Activision maybe This is exactly the kind of thing that falls flat with gamers who never experienced this kind of innovation and started gaming with the NES. I love this era of gaming, and I try to explain the types of innovative games and genres that got squashed by side-scrolling platformers, but NES fans seem to look at a game like that and wonder why anyone would want to play a game in black and white where you can't jump on your enemies. They completely overlook the unique experience of creating an interactive window into an artistic creation (like a song). Throughout the late 80s and 90s, I found myself wondering why everyone kept buying side scrollers. They all seemed almost exactly the same and crowded the market without leaving much room (on consoles) for more creative experiences. While Nintendo didn't set out to have that specific impact on gaming, they share some blame in limiting the genres of popular games. That was a sort of "anti-innovation" of theirs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 I think that happens anytime something goes mass market. One breakout hit and then everyone tries to duplicate that success -- while minimizing risk to themselves by not veering too far from what they see as the winning formula. The same could be said of books, films, music. There are very specific genres where people play nowadays. PC players look down on console gamers. FPS is ridiculed by the MMO crowd and vice versa. The MOBA and e-sports people are doing their own thing, as are mobile gamers. People bitch about loot boxes, people bitch about pay to win, people bitch about microtransactions. Some people won't play a game that requires a constant internet connection. Others won't play single-player. There were some innovations along the way ... 3D in hardware, CD-ROM, online, HD for everyone -- each of these technologies were gamified, with varying results. Nintendo picked some gimmicks for themselves with rumble, motion, stereoscopic vision, emulation/monetization of their back catalog. 3DS experimented with some under-appreciated things, like AR gaming, SpotPass (safely interact with strangers that you "met" in real space) and the odometer that gave you coins for walking around with your handheld. The original post in this thread said personally i'm getting tired of arguing with people who try to give nintendo credit for pretty much everything under the sun. Then don't argue with them. Popularizing something counts as much as being "first," arguably more so. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 (edited) Pah...The UK laughs at Nintendo and it's innovation's.... And asks has Nintendo ever released a game on.....Vinyl? https://www.rediscoverthe80s.com/2014/01/80s-first-video-game-released-on-vinyl.html https://youtu.be/b5s_MSqeWw0 https://youtu.be/EAo4dj0O0c4 Or a Shakin Stevens Game..The Bop Won't Stop: https://youtu.be/c-IVbZmAyNM Edited February 14, 2019 by Lost Dragon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 Pah...The UK laughs at Nintendo and it's innovation's.... And asks has Nintendo ever released a game on.....Vinyl? I'll see your flexi-disc and raise you an e-reader Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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