The Big Bang - Ottumwa, IA 8/5-8/8

[VectorGamer]

it's not they are bashing it,it's more like there wasn't enough publicity about to plug it.

 

I disagree with that. Walter has posted links to quite a few articles and news videos regarding the HoF. And I just saw today several newspaper articles posted about Ben Gold and his induction.

 

There was not near enough publicity, and to suggest otherwise is foolish. Where is their advertising? Can you point me to a gaming publication, or some other recognized media outlet where the IVGHOF bought advertising to get their word out? No, you can't, because they did not do that.

 

 

Who cares...

[mstulir]

it's not they are bashing it,it's more like there wasn't enough publicity about to plug it.

 

I disagree with that. Walter has posted links to quite a few articles and news videos regarding the HoF. And I just saw today several newspaper articles posted about Ben Gold and his induction.

 

There was not near enough publicity, and to suggest otherwise is foolish. Where is their advertising? Can you point me to a gaming publication, or some other recognized media outlet where the IVGHOF bought advertising to get their word out? No, you can't, because they did not do that.

 

 

 

 

Who cares...

 

Apparently, you care since you keep disagreeing with people like Dan & I who are more knowledgeable about what is required to properly promote a gaming event.

[Dan Iacovelli]

what this all goes back to is crimefighters first post here in this topic and his first line:http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/166255-the-big-bang-ottumwa-ia-85-88/page__view__findpost__p__2053547

Gee, why didn't I hear about this earlier???

and for the record one article in the Iowa paper isn't great either except for people in Iowa.

good publicity is tv ads, mentions on the net, paper ads etc etc.

Walter haven't been doing all that. I think mike and I know what we are talking about

[VectorGamer]

How much money does IVGHOF have to spend on ads?

[Dan Iacovelli]

How much money does IVGHOF have to spend on ads?

well tv ads isn't necessary,look at where walter posted about it, Twingalaxies and on face book.

how many people here ever go to twingalaxies or search for the face book page.

now look at CGE: facebook,myspace, post here and on DP, web banners on few other sites.

who do you think will have best attendance based on that.

plus the timing is bad on IVGHOF as I mentioned before: having a show only about 5 days after

CGE has ended, mostly everybody who went to CGE is already gamed out or spent too much money.

[Crimefighter]

Pointing out their shortcomings is not bashing. They made the comments publicly & set the expectation. I am merely pointing out that they have not lived up to them. That is not bashing, but a statement of fact.

 

No, that is a statement of your opinion.

[Crimefighter]

what this all goes back to is crimefighters first post here in this topic and his first line:http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/166255-the-big-bang-ottumwa-ia-85-88/page__view__findpost__p__2053547

Gee, why didn't I hear about this earlier???

and for the record one article in the Iowa paper isn't great either except for people in Iowa.

good publicity is tv ads, mentions on the net, paper ads etc etc.

Walter haven't been doing all that. I think mike and I know what we are talking about

 

http://news.google.com/news/search?aq=f&pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&q=big+bang+iowa

 

Well there's more than one....

[VectorGamer]

what this all goes back to is crimefighters first post here in this topic and his first line:http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/166255-the-big-bang-ottumwa-ia-85-88/page__view__findpost__p__2053547

Gee, why didn't I hear about this earlier???

and for the record one article in the Iowa paper isn't great either except for people in Iowa.

good publicity is tv ads, mentions on the net, paper ads etc etc.

Walter haven't been doing all that. I think mike and I know what we are talking about

 

http://news.google.com/news/search?aq=f&pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&q=big+bang+iowa

 

Well there's more than one....

 

That's funny I was going to do the same thing...

 

But, I'm done with this thread...it's a moot point as the extravaganza is starting today

[Crimefighter]

Well I'm here...since it's Thursday it looks like most of the activity begins tomorrow...but Star Worlds is here with a Pac-Man arcade, the Bring Your Own Console -- btw, you have to bring a console to go in that area at all; maybe an Atari Flashback machine or a dedicated video game device is acceptable -- is only a quarter full at this point...there's also an gaming display area with four of the arcade machines used to score a world record. Organizers say they are raising money to open an actual gaming museum in the future. Free copies of Computer Power User magazine.

[goatdan]

How much money does IVGHOF have to spend on ads?

well tv ads isn't necessary,look at where walter posted about it, Twingalaxies and on face book.

how many people here ever go to twingalaxies or search for the face book page.

now look at CGE: facebook,myspace, post here and on DP, web banners on few other sites.

who do you think will have best attendance based on that.

plus the timing is bad on IVGHOF as I mentioned before: having a show only about 5 days after

CGE has ended, mostly everybody who went to CGE is already gamed out or spent too much money.

 

To be completely fair:

 

1) Who knows what local promotion is like? That is really the main necessity for a show like this. While the MGC has some web presence, the *majority* of our time and money is getting the word out to the locals that the show is going on. I can't speak to how Big Bang did this, I guess show reports will tell us.

2) Shows that focus on drawing a local crowd don't have to worry about intercepting other shows. This past year, the MGC was on the same date as a PAX show and a pinball show, and we had our best year of attendance yet. It isn't like having CGE one week before it is going to greatly change someone's mind about if they are going to head to this or not. CGE has always been when it is in Vegas a 'destination' show. I don't know if that is the goal with Big Bang right now.

3) Putting together a show is hard, as I'm sure you both know. You never know if you're going to have 20 people show up or 2000 before it goes off. I have no behind the scenes knowledge of anything with Big Bang, but this is the second year they are hosting the event, and putting together an event like this can be very difficult. Unfortunately, as people have pointed out it looks as if they may have overpromised, and that is perhaps one of the most common things that any show can do. Heck - I did it with the MGC one year. The key is how the show organizers fix that (if that is the case) the following year.

 

I sent them some goodies in return for promotion of both the Midwest Gaming Classic and the GOAT Store this year. I like to support other shows, and I only wish them the best. With how hard it is to put on a show, it's worth hearing from the people who are there what it was like -- I'm hoping to hear some reports and see some pics soon.

 

Also, as for Walter and Billy claiming that Iowa was the birthplace of competitive gaming, it is all how you look at it, and just because someone showed a picture of other people competing that was dated earlier doesn't necessarily mean anything. Twin Galaxies became world recognized because of the promotion that they did, and those other places did not. History, in many ways is written by the people who win, and in some ways Twin Galaxies was truly the winner in the competitive gaming world.

 

Other tournaments were definitely held. I'm friends with Roger Sharpe and Steven Epstein, who organized a huge pinball tournament in 1978 (the Playboy Super Shooter Pinball Tournament) that eventually became what is now recognized as the world championship of pinball. I'm sure that other tournaments were held. But why be pissed at people for promoting competitive playing? And really, what do you expect them to say, "Oh my gosh, you're right! We weren't the first, so let's stop trying to promote it now!" It just doesn't make sense.

 

You can agree or disagree with what Twin Galaxies does -- and I will be the first to say that I definitely question some of what that organization does, and the Midwest Gaming Classic does not have *any* tournaments that are recognized by Twin Galaxies and we have no intentions of trying to become recognized by them -- but anyone who has the ambition to put on a show I think should at least be given the opportunity to see how it goes.

 

We'll find out details about it after this weekend was over, and I can't wait to hear the people who were there tell me what they loved or hated about the show. CrimeFighter, I hope you have fun and I do want a full report when you get back

[Dan Iacovelli]

How much money does IVGHOF have to spend on ads?

well tv ads isn't necessary,look at where walter posted about it, Twingalaxies and on face book.

how many people here ever go to twingalaxies or search for the face book page.

now look at CGE: facebook,myspace, post here and on DP, web banners on few other sites.

who do you think will have best attendance based on that.

plus the timing is bad on IVGHOF as I mentioned before: having a show only about 5 days after

CGE has ended, mostly everybody who went to CGE is already gamed out or spent too much money.

 

To be completely fair:

 

1) Who knows what local promotion is like? That is really the main necessity for a show like this. While the MGC has some web presence, the *majority* of our time and money is getting the word out to the locals that the show is going on. I can't speak to how Big Bang did this, I guess show reports will tell us.

2) Shows that focus on drawing a local crowd don't have to worry about intercepting other shows. This past year, the MGC was on the same date as a PAX show and a pinball show, and we had our best year of attendance yet. It isn't like having CGE one week before it is going to greatly change someone's mind about if they are going to head to this or not. CGE has always been when it is in Vegas a 'destination' show. I don't know if that is the goal with Big Bang right now.

3) Putting together a show is hard, as I'm sure you both know. You never know if you're going to have 20 people show up or 2000 before it goes off. I have no behind the scenes knowledge of anything with Big Bang, but this is the second year they are hosting the event, and putting together an event like this can be very difficult. Unfortunately, as people have pointed out it looks as if they may have overpromised, and that is perhaps one of the most common things that any show can do. Heck - I did it with the MGC one year. The key is how the show organizers fix that (if that is the case) the following year.

 

I sent them some goodies in return for promotion of both the Midwest Gaming Classic and the GOAT Store this year. I like to support other shows, and I only wish them the best. With how hard it is to put on a show, it's worth hearing from the people who are there what it was like -- I'm hoping to hear some reports and see some pics soon.

 

Also, as for Walter and Billy claiming that Iowa was the birthplace of competitive gaming, it is all how you look at it, and just because someone showed a picture of other people competing that was dated earlier doesn't necessarily mean anything. Twin Galaxies became world recognized because of the promotion that they did, and those other places did not. History, in many ways is written by the people who win, and in some ways Twin Galaxies was truly the winner in the competitive gaming world.

 

Other tournaments were definitely held. I'm friends with Roger Sharpe and Steven Epstein, who organized a huge pinball tournament in 1978 (the Playboy Super Shooter Pinball Tournament) that eventually became what is now recognized as the world championship of pinball. I'm sure that other tournaments were held. But why be pissed at people for promoting competitive playing? And really, what do you expect them to say, "Oh my gosh, you're right! We weren't the first, so let's stop trying to promote it now!" It just doesn't make sense.

 

You can agree or disagree with what Twin Galaxies does -- and I will be the first to say that I definitely question some of what that organization does, and the Midwest Gaming Classic does not have *any* tournaments that are recognized by Twin Galaxies and we have no intentions of trying to become recognized by them -- but anyone who has the ambition to put on a show I think should at least be given the opportunity to see how it goes.

 

We'll find out details about it after this weekend was over, and I can't wait to hear the people who were there tell me what they loved or hated about the show. CrimeFighter, I hope you have fun and I do want a full report when you get back

that is true a majority of vgs attendance is from IL(around the lombard/Villa park area)

AVC Online donated a E-cert from our cafepress.com shop for Star Worlds Arcade tournament at Big Bang.

I also donate E-certs to other shows as well: OVGE,PRGE,CCAG as well as MGC even it's only for Jagfest section.

[Crimefighter]

Some news out of Big Bang --

 

Billy Mitchell reclaims records - http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/167295-announcement-at-big-bang/

 

The VG Hall of Fame ceremonies took places - http://www.twingalaxies.com/index.aspx?c=27&id=2214

 

The Tetris Party record was set - http://www.twingalaxies.com/index.aspx?c=27&id=2212

 

Raising the flag - http://www.twingalaxies.com/index.aspx?c=27&id=2208

 

Check out the Bridge View Center - http://www.twingalaxies.com/index.aspx?c=27&id=2208

 

Other pictures - http://www.twingalaxies.com/index.aspx?c=27&id=2205

 

There's more over on Twin Galaxies...but this is just a sample.

 

The Pac-Man competitions going on with the Star Worlds display was quite fierce, some big numbers posted on Ms. Pac-Man Fast with a 303K score, Jr. Pac-Man with 70K score, Hangly Man had a 404K score, someone racked up 448K on Baby Pac-Man, and I got 85K on Super Pac-Man set to very hard. Championship Pac-Man over on the XBox 360 had someone score over 300K in the 5 minute championship mode.

[mstulir]

Also, as for Walter and Billy claiming that Iowa was the birthplace of competitive gaming, it is all how you look at it, and just because someone showed a picture of other people competing that was dated earlier doesn't necessarily mean anything.

 

So let me get this straight: Photographic proof exists of other locations/organizations holding competitive gaming events as many as 4 years before Walter Day, but you say he can still claim he gave birth to competitive gaming? The only thing that Walter Day did is centralize scorekeeping. For that, he certainly deserves credit, but the fact remains that he didn't "invent" jack squat. The photographs don't prove who specifically got things started, but they do prove it was not Walter Day.

 

 

But why be pissed at people for promoting competitive playing? And really, what do you expect them to say, "Oh my gosh, you're right! We weren't the first, so let's stop trying to promote it now!"

 

It isn't that I am pissed. The bottom line is that this whole "Big Bang" nonsense is built on a lie. They weren't the first, there is proof they weren't the first, but they elected to build an identity on it anyway. It is completely dishonest, and shows me that there are questions that need to be asked about what these people are intending to do. Don't make crap up. Build an event based on something factual. Don't just hope people are dumb enough to not question what you are doing because you can't find a REAL identity on your own.

 

 

You can agree or disagree with what Twin Galaxies does -- and I will be the first to say that I definitely question some of what that organization does

 

On that, we agree.

 

 

but anyone who has the ambition to put on a show I think should at least be given the opportunity to see how it goes.

 

I think the people that were taken in by vgXpo in Texas/Washington D.C or GameX might disagree.

[mstulir]

Some news out of Big Bang --

 

Billy Mitchell reclaims records - http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/167295-announcement-at-big-bang/

 

The VG Hall of Fame ceremonies took places - http://www.twingalaxies.com/index.aspx?c=27&id=2214

 

The Tetris Party record was set - http://www.twingalaxies.com/index.aspx?c=27&id=2212

 

Raising the flag - http://www.twingalaxies.com/index.aspx?c=27&id=2208

 

Check out the Bridge View Center - http://www.twingalaxies.com/index.aspx?c=27&id=2208

 

Other pictures - http://www.twingalaxies.com/index.aspx?c=27&id=2205

 

There's more over on Twin Galaxies...but this is just a sample.

 

The Pac-Man competitions going on with the Star Worlds display was quite fierce, some big numbers posted on Ms. Pac-Man Fast with a 303K score, Jr. Pac-Man with 70K score, Hangly Man had a 404K score, someone racked up 448K on Baby Pac-Man, and I got 85K on Super Pac-Man set to very hard. Championship Pac-Man over on the XBox 360 had someone score over 300K in the 5 minute championship mode.

 

Can someone point me in the direction of some photos that have some people in them? Everything on the web so far makes it look like a ghost town.

[Dan Iacovelli]

apparently the show was a success since they already announced the date for next years show in their forums: august 4-7.

[Crimefighter]

Like this??? http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/album.php?aid=2075686&id=1211960570

 

 

There were people there, a lot of people. Many not as many as Midwest Gaming Classic but there were plenty.

[Crimefighter]

More - http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/album.php?aid=28659&id=100000463100041

[mstulir]

Like this??? http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/album.php?aid=2075686&id=1211960570

 

 

There were people there, a lot of people. Many not as many as Midwest Gaming Classic but there were plenty.

 

I'm not signing up for Facebook just to look at pictures.

 

Let me try this again....... Remember Walter Day's statement from his "retirement" announcement: "We will not be surprised if 15,000 to 50,000 people show up because we are such a well supported event." Today, an IVGHOF representative said (in a TV news report) that they still don't know how many tickets they sold, but they thought it was around 3,000. Even going with the low end of Walter's estimate, and assuming they did not cheat and count a four-day pass as four seperate admissions, they only brought in 20% of their goal.

 

Having said all that, I haven't seen a single photo to back that up that "3,000" number. Every picture that I have been sent or have found on my own shows a big empty room at a convention center. I have attached a photo of one area of PhillyClassic 5, which had approx. 3,200 people in attendance. (BTW, that was 3,200 individual people. PhillyClassic did not count a 3-day ticket as three separate admissions like some shows do.) Can someone show me a picture from Ottumwa with a similar quantity of people?

[Crimefighter]

Well I dunno what to tell you, I'm not going to cut and paste all the pictures JUST for you and frankly I'm done with your negativity...

[mstulir]

it's not they are bashing it,it's more like there wasn't enough publicity about to plug it.

 

I disagree with that. Walter has posted links to quite a few articles and news videos regarding the HoF. And I just saw today several newspaper articles posted about Ben Gold and his induction.

 

RMAERZ, I think you need to watch this. The key quote can be found at the end of this story. The anchorman said something very interesting.

 

http://www.heartlandconnection.com/news/story.aspx?id=492421

 

50% of the people on the street that the reporter talked to had never heard of the event and did not know what was going on. Yeah, the Ottumwa crew did a stellar job of promotion.

 

If 50% of the LOCAL population doesn't know about what you are doing, how can you be a success?

[mstulir]

......and frankly I'm done with your negativity...

 

I can back up everything I have said. Just because you have chosen to ignore my facts does not make me negative.

[Dan Iacovelli]

Well I dunno what to tell you, I'm not going to cut and paste all the pictures JUST for you and frankly I'm done with your negativity...

there are other sites you can post the pics as well.

also do you know there is a gallery here on atariage? why not post pics here

[goatdan]

So let me get this straight: Photographic proof exists of other locations/organizations holding competitive gaming events as many as 4 years before Walter Day, but you say he can still claim he gave birth to competitive gaming? The only thing that Walter Day did is centralize scorekeeping. For that, he certainly deserves credit, but the fact remains that he didn't "invent" jack squat. The photographs don't prove who specifically got things started, but they do prove it was not Walter Day.

 

Again, it's all in how you interpret something. I know the guys who started what is believed to be the first huge pinball tournament, which was also before Twin Galaxies opened, and the finals were at the Playboy tower. It was quite the huge deal.

 

But the thing is that even though the event had satellite qualifying events around the country, it didn't (as pinball usually doesn't) focus on the scores themselves, just the competition of that day.

 

So, while one can debate until they are blue in the face what the definition of competitive gaming is, if you use the high scores as the ultimate competition point, and one group -- Twin Galaxies -- centralizes that, I can totally understand how they can claim that they pioneered it. That's all that I'm saying.

 

It isn't that I am pissed. The bottom line is that this whole "Big Bang" nonsense is built on a lie. They weren't the first, there is proof they weren't the first, but they elected to build an identity on it anyway. It is completely dishonest, and shows me that there are questions that need to be asked about what these people are intending to do. Don't make crap up. Build an event based on something factual. Don't just hope people are dumb enough to not question what you are doing because you can't find a REAL identity on your own.

 

But what do you want the identity to be then? "Hey, we tracked stuff so come to our event!" I have heard no one else who did anything before them step up and state that they did not agree with them. The guys at the heart of the pinball tournament I mentioned have no issue with Twin Galaxies making that claim, and they would probably say themselves that it's better to have a group who was really at the heart of it work on keeping it alive than to not do anything out of concern that they might disappoint someone.

 

You can agree or disagree with what Twin Galaxies does -- and I will be the first to say that I definitely question some of what that organization does

 

On that, we agree.

 

I just want to point this out specifically -- I'm not making any claims here because I'm a big Twin Galaxies fan. In fact, after an issue that we had with them refusing to even think about any of our high scores from the Midwest Gaming Classic because our refs were not "watching in the same way theirs would" and telling me that I had to pay to fly a ref out if we wanted to set any records, we have specifically built tournaments that exclude high score chases from their goals.

 

Me and two of my tournament refs including the one who saw the entire high score in person watched a Twin Galaxies tournament ref at another event -- he watched the start of the game, walked around, did other stuff, came back, walked away, played another game, etc. Our ref watched the entire three plus hours of gameplay without moving. It's what we do -- but we couldn't be 'trusted' to not be 'lying' about the score. On top of that, they refuse to allow anyone from the MGC to become tournament officials.

 

Decisions like this are something that does not give the group any additional clout, it makes them lose it as people who have watched our tournaments can clearly see that what is done there is completely legit. Because some people there (not Walter, mostly the new regime) is all about trying to make money with this thing, they might very well shoot themselves in the foot over it all, as when you start to get huge competitions like ours that doesn't use them, while we are a HUGE partner with the IFPA pinball folks, it makes people question their legitimacy.

 

As you're doing above, although for a reason that I really do feel is a moot point.

 

I think the people that were taken in by vgXpo in Texas/Washington D.C or GameX might disagree.

 

I think that anyone who goes to a show should look at what is there to do before deciding whether it is worth going to. But I also think it isn't fair to condemn a show until the first show is over. I haven't heard anything negative from the people who attended. Yes, they didn't have the huge attendance that was predicted, but it is nearly impossible to correctly predict something like that. But if there was only 500 people who went but they all loved it, there is something to build on.

[goatdan]

Even going with the low end of Walter's estimate, and assuming they did not cheat and count a four-day pass as four seperate admissions, they only brought in 20% of their goal.

 

Having said all that, I haven't seen a single photo to back that up that "3,000" number. Every picture that I have been sent or have found on my own shows a big empty room at a convention center. I have attached a photo of one area of PhillyClassic 5, which had approx. 3,200 people in attendance. (BTW, that was 3,200 individual people. PhillyClassic did not count a 3-day ticket as three separate admissions like some shows do.) Can someone show me a picture from Ottumwa with a similar quantity of people?

 

First, I find it very interesting that you're opposed to counting a three day ticket as three admissions. That's something that is standard operating procedure in basically *any* event that is run with admission. It isn't like the local baseball team counts their season ticket holders as only coming to the games once. Or, if you head down to Disney World and you "park hop" in a day and go to both the Magic Kingdom and EPCOT, you count as an attendance at each park. If you buy a 10 day Disney "parkhopper" ticket and bounce to each park every day, you count as 10 admissions to each of Disney's four parks.

 

It isn't like because you were there before, you take up any less space the second time around. I've worked in a business that lived and died on attendance, and never was it mentioned that people who visited twice we should only count once.

 

Finally, attendance is a very hard thing to judge. A lot of it has to do with how much space there is for people to be spread out between. I have no idea how big the PhillyClassic space is, but if it was say 20,000 square feet, and Big Bang had 90,000 square feet (as I think I heard), it means that people are nearly five times more spread out, so you wouldn't see the huge crowds. Now, you can debate with me all day long if you want to show the huge crowds to look and feel really busy or if you want them spread out to let it feel more open, and I'd say you want it to feel a little more crowded. But, it's there either way. Also, for 3000 ticket sales for Big Bang, that would translate to about 750 attendees per day. If PhillyClassic was 3200 over three days, that is about 1100 a day. That makes a difference.

 

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't have done a lot of what Big Bang did, including any speculation on attendance or expanding the event to four days long. But, with everyone who I have heard went, they had a great time -- so I don't think it is fair to compare it to VGXpo or GameX.

[goatdan]

If 50% of the LOCAL population doesn't know about what you are doing, how can you be a success?

 

Dan, do you really feel that 50% of the local population knows about the Video Game Summit? I know that 50% of the local population doesn't know about the Midwest Gaming Classic.

 

Admittedly, Ottuwma is a smaller town that was purported to be really behind the event, so you would hope that more people had know about it. But, if 50% of Milwaukee knows about the Midwest Gaming Classic, we're doing something really, really right. I'd still place our market penetration at about 1%, and we focus 95% of our marketing here.

 

I just don't get why people are so negative about this show.