The Big Bang - Ottumwa, IA 8/5-8/8

[mstulir]

Dan, do you really feel that 50% of the local population knows about the Video Game Summit? I know that 50% of the local population doesn't know about the Midwest Gaming Classic.

 

Admittedly, Ottuwma is a smaller town that was purported to be really behind the event, so you would hope that more people had know about it. But, if 50% of Milwaukee knows about the Midwest Gaming Classic, we're doing something really, really right. I'd still place our market penetration at about 1%, and we focus 95% of our marketing here.

 

I just don't get why people are so negative about this show.

 

....and considering the size/scope of the Milwaukee area, you have absolutely done the right thing with your marketing efforts. Having said that, we aren't talking Milwaukee. A small economically-depressed area should have been much more aware that the event was happening -- especially since the Chamber of Commerce was involved, and local/state government was involved.

 

Dan, I have a tremendous amount of respect for what people like you/Marty/etc. are doing with MGC. I have a tremendous amount of respect for what people like Dan Iacovelli are doing. I don't have respect for these IVGHOF people getting the government involved, asking for taxpayer money to fund it, and then having nothing to show for it at the end.

 

I'll say it again.... I don't know why pointing out what these people promised is negative. They made promises they did not live up to. Why is it negative to say "You guys promised X and did not deliver. Why is that?"

[mstulir]

First, I find it very interesting that you're opposed to counting a three day ticket as three admissions. That's something that is standard operating procedure in basically *any* event that is run with admission. It isn't like the local baseball team counts their season ticket holders as only coming to the games once. Or, if you head down to Disney World and you "park hop" in a day and go to both the Magic Kingdom and EPCOT, you count as an attendance at each park. If you buy a 10 day Disney "parkhopper" ticket and bounce to each park every day, you count as 10 admissions to each of Disney's four parks.

 

Dan, you are absolutely right when you say most events treat it as such. I think that is cheating because it pads the numbers. I want to know how many people were there, not how many admissions there were. When David Newman was running PhillyClassic, he had a simple system. Each badge had a sequential number starting with 1. It didn't matter if you bought a 3 day pass or a single day pass, you were added up sequentially. At the end of the event, you look at the next number. If 3,245 was the next number to be issued, then you know that 3,244 people attended your event. Certainly, the "admission" number would have been much higher, but that "people" number gave you a much better idea as to how effective your marketing was.

 

 

Finally, attendance is a very hard thing to judge. A lot of it has to do with how much space there is for people to be spread out between. I have no idea how big the PhillyClassic space is, but if it was say 20,000 square feet, and Big Bang had 90,000 square feet (as I think I heard), it means that people are nearly five times more spread out, so you wouldn't see the huge crowds. Now, you can debate with me all day long if you want to show the huge crowds to look and feel really busy or if you want them spread out to let it feel more open, and I'd say you want it to feel a little more crowded. But, it's there either way. Also, for 3000 ticket sales for Big Bang, that would translate to about 750 attendees per day. If PhillyClassic was 3200 over three days, that is about 1100 a day. That makes a difference.

 

It has been many years and I do not recall the square footage of the Valley Forge Center. There is no question that Big Bang got more floor space. However, this goes back to what I said above about the true "people" count. PhillyClassic bought floor space based on previous attendance with an anticipation of a certain percentage of growth. IVGHOF likes to throw around the term "Inaugural" to describe what they did this year, but the fact of the matter is that this is the SECOND time they have done this in Ottumwa. One would think that they could look at what happened last year, anticipate a little attendance loss, plan on growth, and have a good idea where to start. They did not do that because they haven't figured out that you can't run until you know how to walk.

 

Regardless, I should be able to judge the size of a room by the photo, look at the people in the space and get some idea how many people were there. I can't do that because there are no photos with people in them. All I see is a big empty room with the same 6-10 people in each photo. That tells me nothing.

 

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't have done a lot of what Big Bang did, including any speculation on attendance or expanding the event to four days long. But, with everyone who I have heard went, they had a great time -- so I don't think it is fair to compare it to VGXpo or GameX.

 

Dan, I respect you enough to consider what you say about people having a great time, because I have heard nothing from the places I would expect people to be online raving about the event. I think the next few days will be telling. If people aren't talking, the silence should speak volumes.

[Dan Iacovelli]

If 50% of the LOCAL population doesn't know about what you are doing, how can you be a success?

 

Dan, do you really feel that 50% of the local population knows about the Video Game Summit? I know that 50% of the local population doesn't know about the Midwest Gaming Classic.

 

Admittedly, Ottuwma is a smaller town that was purported to be really behind the event, so you would hope that more people had know about it. But, if 50% of Milwaukee knows about the Midwest Gaming Classic, we're doing something really, really right. I'd still place our market penetration at about 1%, and we focus 95% of our marketing here.

 

I just don't get why people are so negative about this show.

I didn't say that why are you accusing me of saying that(it was mike not me)

[Dan Iacovelli]

If 50% of the LOCAL population doesn't know about what you are doing, how can you be a success?

 

Dan, do you really feel that 50% of the local population knows about the Video Game Summit? I know that 50% of the local population doesn't know about the Midwest Gaming Classic.

 

Admittedly, Ottuwma is a smaller town that was purported to be really behind the event, so you would hope that more people had know about it. But, if 50% of Milwaukee knows about the Midwest Gaming Classic, we're doing something really, really right. I'd still place our market penetration at about 1%, and we focus 95% of our marketing here.

 

I just don't get why people are so negative about this show.

I didn't say that why are you accusing me of saying that(it was mike not me)

I wouldn't say 50% knows I do know most of area knows about it. but I do post it on the usenet newsgroups and other boards so other places know.

[mstulir]

I didn't say that why are you accusing me of saying that(it was mike not me)

 

I don't think you are being accused of anything. I think he was asking your opinion.

[Dan Iacovelli]

I didn't say that why are you accusing me of saying that(it was mike not me)

 

I don't think you are being accused of anything. I think he was asking your opinion.

I figured that out later on. which is why I did a second post.

it got confusing though when he asked that because I didn't mention anything about it.

and thanks for saying that you respect me for what I do for VGS.

[goatdan]

I didn't say that why are you accusing me of saying that(it was mike not me)

 

I don't think you are being accused of anything. I think he was asking your opinion.

 

Yeah, that was my whole point. If everyone is being honest, if you walk up to 50% of a town and they all know that something is going on, that's still a hell of an accomplishment -- even in an economically depressed area. This isn't a State Fair or something that everyone might want to attend, this is a video game show.

 

If we take that number and apply it to just the people in Ottuwma, my point is you have 13,500 people aware of it right there. That's nothing to sneeze at.

[Dan Iacovelli]

I didn't say that why are you accusing me of saying that(it was mike not me)

 

I don't think you are being accused of anything. I think he was asking your opinion.

 

Yeah, that was my whole point. If everyone is being honest, if you walk up to 50% of a town and they all know that something is going on, that's still a hell of an accomplishment -- even in an economically depressed area. This isn't a State Fair or something that everyone might want to attend, this is a video game show.

 

If we take that number and apply it to just the people in Ottuwma, my point is you have 13,500 people aware of it right there. That's nothing to sneeze at.

I replied to your question after I realized it was a question(see my second post)

[goatdan]

....and considering the size/scope of the Milwaukee area, you have absolutely done the right thing with your marketing efforts. Having said that, we aren't talking Milwaukee. A small economically-depressed area should have been much more aware that the event was happening -- especially since the Chamber of Commerce was involved, and local/state government was involved.

 

I just answered this so onward...

 

Dan, I have a tremendous amount of respect for what people like you/Marty/etc. are doing with MGC. I have a tremendous amount of respect for what people like Dan Iacovelli are doing. I don't have respect for these IVGHOF people getting the government involved, asking for taxpayer money to fund it, and then having nothing to show for it at the end.

 

Without going into a huge economics thing here, depending on how much the government got involved, this could or could not have been worth it for them. I know that we've now had a number of local and not-so-local governments offer us money to move the Midwest Gaming Classic to other cities. Because ultimately, if we sell 500 hotel rooms and there is a $5 tax on that room for the city, that is a $2500 boost to the local economy not including the food sales and everything else. So, it's smart for these places to offer money, funding or support based on what they expect to get back out of it.

 

I'll also say that to date we've turned down the offers, but if it makes sense for both us and the city, I'll definitely at least look into it.

 

I'll say it again.... I don't know why pointing out what these people promised is negative. They made promises they did not live up to. Why is it negative to say "You guys promised X and did not deliver. Why is that?"

 

You were pointing it out before the event even happened, which is just where I feel that things are unfair. I feel like after an event is over, the armchair quarterbacking can start as much as you would like, but before that point such speculation isn't a good thing. There are so many different decisions that you can do with a show, whether it is marketing it to the local populace or trying to get people to travel for it, focusing on playing and competing or focusing on special events, trying to attract vendors or operating without any at all. I know that the GOAT Store side of us was contacted with some great offerings for space which made me really consider going down there. I know they were trying. And I think that to key on just a couple statements and condemn them over it before the show is unfair, is all.

[goatdan]

Dan, you are absolutely right when you say most events treat it as such. I think that is cheating because it pads the numbers. I want to know how many people were there, not how many admissions there were. When David Newman was running PhillyClassic, he had a simple system. Each badge had a sequential number starting with 1. It didn't matter if you bought a 3 day pass or a single day pass, you were added up sequentially. At the end of the event, you look at the next number. If 3,245 was the next number to be issued, then you know that 3,244 people attended your event. Certainly, the "admission" number would have been much higher, but that "people" number gave you a much better idea as to how effective your marketing was.

 

Eh, this can be argued either way, and I tend to go with the standard operating procedure thanks to the industries I've been in. While I agree that if you look at the multi-day pass as such, you see what reach far your advertising had, but on the flip side if you don't sell any multi-day passes, your attendance would be the same but it would mean (in my way of looking at it) that your activities were not enthralling enough to keep people there.

 

The best way to do it all is to track multi-day passes and total visits separately when possible, sort of like having the overall yearly attendance for Disneyland but also knowing how many annual passes are sold. This does tell a different story.

 

But, realistically, you're still going to have people who come and opt not to buy that multi-day pass or annual pass or whatever but end up coming more than once. And, those people do count.

 

For our show, we keep track of how many multiple day tickets we sold, but we only sell them prior to the beginning of the show. When we're running, you can only buy a single day pass, which means that we don't even have a way to count how many Sunday people also came on Saturday. Regardless, the attendance we claim is the total number of admissions that came into the show.

 

It has been many years and I do not recall the square footage of the Valley Forge Center. There is no question that Big Bang got more floor space. However, this goes back to what I said above about the true "people" count. PhillyClassic bought floor space based on previous attendance with an anticipation of a certain percentage of growth. IVGHOF likes to throw around the term "Inaugural" to describe what they did this year, but the fact of the matter is that this is the SECOND time they have done this in Ottumwa. One would think that they could look at what happened last year, anticipate a little attendance loss, plan on growth, and have a good idea where to start. They did not do that because they haven't figured out that you can't run until you know how to walk.

 

I can't argue any of these points above, although what they did from last year to this year is different enough that I don't have any issue with it being called the "Inaugural" event. Beyond that, I totally agree with you, and you just basically said exactly the problem that shows have had trying to grow absolutely every year. What I would suggest is very similar -- look at what happened last year, figure out how to combat any attendance loss and how you are going to inform more people about the show, plan for growth, and take things one step at a time. You never know exactly where to start, because new opportunities come up *constantly* when doing this sort of thing.

 

Which reminds me, if anyone wants to join the MGC on 9/3 at the Times Cinema in Milwaukee, we're helping to present Tommy: 35th Anniversary Restoration, and we've got some awesome stuff to go with it!

 

Regardless, I should be able to judge the size of a room by the photo, look at the people in the space and get some idea how many people were there. I can't do that because there are no photos with people in them. All I see is a big empty room with the same 6-10 people in each photo. That tells me nothing.

 

To be fair, if you look at our event photos from this past year, very few make it look nearly as packed as it was. Then again, they were purposely taken at times to be more publicity photos for the show (done by a professional photographer) than they were supposed to be just crazy busy looking pictures. The photos that Twin Galaxies have been posting appear to be much more amateurish. Regardless, my point is that it's all in how and when the pictures were taken. A lot of them look to me like they were done before the show opened, which would definitely show a lot of the same stuff.

 

Dan, I respect you enough to consider what you say about people having a great time, because I have heard nothing from the places I would expect people to be online raving about the event. I think the next few days will be telling. If people aren't talking, the silence should speak volumes.

 

I know two groups that were there with stuff for others to do, and from what I have heard, they both had a fun time and were completely satisfied with how things went. With the focus of this show as a competitive game playing event, and less a CGE style show or fan-based show, I don't know how much will be said for it around here. I guess I should really check in with the Twin Galaxies forums...

 

Regardless, my point is just that for something like this, I feel that it is only fair to see what happens before the show, critique it afterward (preferably also from people at the show) and then look to move forward. The second year is always the most important with a show like this, and considering last year was almost entirely different than this year, I do consider this more or less their first year. If they come back in 2011 with an amazing show, kudos. But they should definitely listen to all of the complaints with open ears, consider them all (not necessarily do everything) and move forward. Failure to that will definitely ensure nothing but a death.

[Atari Joe]

I really wanted to go to this. Maybe next year. It would be nice to see everyone again except town looks all run down now.

[Crimefighter]

RMAERZ, I think you need to watch this. The key quote can be found at the end of this story. The anchorman said something very interesting.

 

http://www.heartlandconnection.com/news/story.aspx?id=492421

 

50% of the people on the street that the reporter talked to had never heard of the event and did not know what was going on. Yeah, the Ottumwa crew did a stellar job of promotion.

 

If 50% of the LOCAL population doesn't know about what you are doing, how can you be a success?

 

 

Half of the local population cannot name ANY of their elected leaders...nor do they ever pick up a newspaper or watch the local news.

[Crimefighter]

......and frankly I'm done with your negativity...

 

I can back up everything I have said. Just because you have chosen to ignore my facts does not make me negative.

 

I'm sorry I don't agree with that, you've just fired off a bunch of statements of opinion that you are claiming to be facts. You're being negative JUST to be negative. You seem to have some major beef with the guys running this thing which is why you're talking it down so hard. And THAT is pissing me off.

[mstulir]

......and frankly I'm done with your negativity...

 

I can back up everything I have said. Just because you have chosen to ignore my facts does not make me negative.

 

I'm sorry I don't agree with that, you've just fired off a bunch of statements of opinion that you are claiming to be facts. You're being negative JUST to be negative. You seem to have some major beef with the guys running this thing which is why you're talking it down so hard. And THAT is pissing me off.

 

Dude, you are really beginning to test my patience. I have only presented facts. Since you must be another Walter Day apologist, let me show you FACTS.

 

It is a FACT that in Walter Day's retirement video, he said he expected 15,000 to 50,000 people to show up in Iowa. They did not attract what Walter promised. They didn't come close. That is not opinion, that is FACT.

 

It is a FACT that the quantity of vendors they promised did not materialize. They never provided a vendor list to potential attendees prior to the show. When asked in the IVGHOF forums, the only responses were "I don't know" and "We will get back to you." That is not opinion, that is FACT.

 

It is a FACT that every photo I have seen on the Internet thus far shows a big empty room with no activity, and the same small cluster of people over and over and over again. There is no way they hit the attendance Walter expected. That is not opinion, that is FACT.

 

It is a FACT that the photos you provided on Facebook are nothing more than Patrick Scott Patterson over and over and over again and there is nothing in those photos to show how many people showed up. I have not been shown one photo that shows any kind of crowd as a whole. That is not opinion, that is FACT.

 

It is a FACT that the IVGHOF has not properly informed people that the IVGHOF does not have a physical presence. Only in the last two days has any statement been made informing people that they do not truly exist yet. That is not opinion, that is FACT.

 

It is a FACT that the tournament results have not been posted and the winners are already griping wanting to know when to expect their winnings. That is not opinion, that is FACT.

 

It is a FACT that there have been 3 attendance figures published so far: 2500+ in a newspaper story, 3000+ in the local TV clip, and now 4000+ on the IVGHOF web site. These people can't even agree on attendance. That is not opinion, that is FACT.

 

It is a FACT that they will NEVER be able to have a fully working display of 4,500 machines all running in an arcade setting despite saying that they will. Doing the math on what an average arcade game sucks up in power and applying that across 4,500 games, they will consume approx. $315 PER HOUR in electricity not counting taxes, destination charges, etc. At that rate, and assuming $0.25 per play, they will need to have 1,260 coin drops PER HOUR every hour that they are open to break even, not counting building rent/mortgage costs, repairs/maintenance on the games, etc. That is not opinion, that is FACT. Do the math if you think this is opinion.

 

It is a FACT that based on all of the FACTS presented above, I have no other option but to form an OPINION that the event was a train wreck and not worth my time to attend.

 

Do do us all a favor.... Quit preaching your crap here because you just keep looking like a fool. You can't refute anything I have said because these are all FACTS.

[VectorGamer]

 

Do do us all a favor.... Quit preaching your crap here because you just keep looking like a fool.

 

It is a FACT that if 100 gamers walked into a bar and had their choice of buying a beer for either Mike Stulir or Walter Day, 100 beers would be headed Walter Day's way.

[Dan Iacovelli]

and once again the attendance issue all comes back what crime fighter posted to start off this whole topic:

Gee, why didn't I hear about this earlier???

which means they didn't do much with publicity

wise if you didn't hear about the event earlier and would have getting better attendance.

unlike shows like the others more people heard about and get a good attendance.

I do know that during the weeks heading up to my own show the website it self reached over 500 visits (I keep track of hits and where they come from)

can we end this topic the show is over, basically crime fighter was the only person who posted about it.

(nobody else mentioned it until after he did it)

[mstulir]

 

Do do us all a favor.... Quit preaching your crap here because you just keep looking like a fool.

 

It is a FACT that if 100 gamers walked into a bar and had their choice of buying a beer for either Mike Stulir or Walter Day, 100 beers would be headed Walter Day's way.

 

Once again, you have managed to show just how little you know. Walter doesn't drink.

[mstulir]

and once again the attendance issue all comes back what crime fighter posted to start off this whole topic:

Gee, why didn't I hear about this earlier???

which means they didn't do much with publicity

wise if you didn't hear about the event earlier and would have getting better attendance.

unlike shows like the others more people heard about and get a good attendance.

I do know that during the weeks heading up to my own show the website it self reached over 500 visits (I keep track of hits and where they come from)

can we end this topic the show is over, basically crime fighter was the only person who posted about it.

(nobody else mentioned it until after he did it)

 

Dan, you are right. Crimefighter asked the question. I answered it. He didn't hear about it earlier because the event marketing sucked.

[VectorGamer]

 

 

Once again, you have managed to show just how little you know. Walter doesn't drink.

 

Whatever guy...It is a FACT that if 100 gamers walked into a bar juice bar and had their choice of buying a beer glass of pineapple juice for either Mike Stulir or Walter Day, 100 beers glasses of pineapple juice would be headed Walter Day's way.

 

I mean, do you contribute anything to AtariAge that is not insulting, abrasive and has nothing to do with Walter Day or Twin Galaxies?

Edited August 11, 2010 by rmaerz

[mstulir]

 

 

Once again, you have managed to show just how little you know. Walter doesn't drink.

 

Whatever guy...It is a FACT that if 100 gamers walked into a bar juice bar and had their choice of buying a beer glass of pineapple juice for either Mike Stulir or Walter Day, 100 beers glasses of pineapple juice would be headed Walter Day's way.

 

I mean, do you contribute anything to AtariAge that is not insulting, abrasive and has nothing to do with Walter Day or Twin Galaxies?

 

Awww... Did I hurt wittle Wob's feewings by having the nerve to call out his wittle hewo?

 

Not that I need to explain myself to you, but I have been a member here for a hell of a lot longer than you and have contributed infinitely more to the classic gaming community than you ever will. Your boy Walter didn't deliver what he promised so perhaps I am not the person deserving the attacks. Instead of calling me negative, perhaps people ought to be asking the IVGHOF a lot of questions. I guess I am the only person who isn't dumb enough (like you apparently) to just say "That's OK" because it isn't.

[Chuck D. Head]

Not to change the subject, but, does anyone want to talk about how retarded I am for continually coming back to read this thread?? Morgan

[VectorGamer]

 

Awww... Did I hurt wittle Wob's feewings by having the nerve to call out his wittle hewo?

 

 

You didn't hurt my feelings at all. I just know that if I post anything that is "pro" Walter Day or Twin Galaxies you will come back with an insult as predicted and show everybody the true jackass that you are. It's not even a challenge...

[Emehr]

Not to change the subject, but, does anyone want to talk about how retarded I am for continually coming back to read this thread?? Morgan

Nope. I keep coming back too. I'm just trying to figure out what the whole point is. What's the issue here?

[mstulir]

 

Awww... Did I hurt wittle Wob's feewings by having the nerve to call out his wittle hewo?

 

 

You didn't hurt my feelings at all. I just know that if I post anything that is "pro" Walter Day or Twin Galaxies you will come back with an insult as predicted and show everybody the true jackass that you are. It's not even a challenge...

 

Jesus, what on earth are you talking about? Go back in this thread to post #38 and you will see that I gave him CREDIT for his concept of centralized scorekeeping. He took what other people were already doing on a local/regional level and made it work on a national level. I gave him CREDIT for that. So I guess I don't answer anything that is "pro" Walter with an insult or challenge, now do I? Instead of talking out of your ass, why don't you learn how to read.

[VectorGamer]

Jesus, what on earth are you talking about? Go back in this thread to post #38 and you will see that I gave him CREDIT for his concept of centralized scorekeeping. He took what other people were already doing on a local/regional level and made it work on a national level. I gave him CREDIT for that. So I guess I don't answer anything that is "pro" Walter with an insult or challenge, now do I? Instead of talking out of your ass, why don't you learn how to read.

 

I'm sure Walter would be flattered with what is written in post #38.

 

What was Walter's response to you when you offered to assist with the Big Bang?