Video Life

[OldAtarian]

It's still dishonest for a buyer to offer $10 for a game that he knows he can get thousands for. There's a special corner in hell set aside for people like that.

 

I definitely agree with this. There's no legal or whatever obligation to tell a seller "hey, that game I just won is worth a million times what I'm paying for it", but there is, in my opinion, a moral one. I've actually had this happen where I informed the seller of their mistake. In the end, they let me have it for the price I paid. I, of course, was keeping it anyway, but I always feel bad for the seller that's uninformed and just trying to make some money and had the potential to make more than they ever dreamed, only to see that shafted by some scum waiting under the surface to convince them to sell for much less with a "deal" that seems incredible on the surface.

 

Ebay is also a special case in that in a true auction, you can actually bid what the item is worth but if there aren't enough bidders to push the price up to that point, you win for less. There's nothing immoral about that, either. Auction has been a legitimate form of trade since ancient times. You made the best offer you could for it, it's not your fault that nobody else bid it up to that point.

 

Shilling What ya gonna do then???

 

 

It wouldn't matter. I would have been prepared pay to the high bid price anyway. That's one of the Ferengi Rules of Acquisition, never bid more than you think an item is worth.

Edited November 28, 2010 by OldAtarian

[jahfish]

how often will this endless ebay-discussion be repeated over and over again?

 

you all won 4 of these:

 

[Stan]

I'm going to start saving for this baby. In five years, it will be mine.

[Frostbite Bailey]

It's still dishonest for a buyer to offer $10 for a game that he knows he can get thousands for. There's a special corner in hell set aside for people like that.

 

I definitely agree with this. There's no legal or whatever obligation to tell a seller "hey, that game I just won is worth a million times what I'm paying for it", but there is, in my opinion, a moral one. I've actually had this happen where I informed the seller of their mistake. In the end, they let me have it for the price I paid. I, of course, was keeping it anyway, but I always feel bad for the seller that's uninformed and just trying to make some money and had the potential to make more than they ever dreamed, only to see that shafted by some scum waiting under the surface to convince them to sell for much less with a "deal" that seems incredible on the surface.

 

Ebay is also a special case in that in a true auction, you can actually bid what the item is worth but if there aren't enough bidders to push the price up to that point, you win for less. There's nothing immoral about that, either. Auction has been a legitimate form of trade since ancient times. You made the best offer you could for it, it's not your fault that nobody else bid it up to that point.

 

Shilling What ya gonna do then???

 

 

It wouldn't matter. I would have been prepared pay to the high bid price anyway. That's one of the Ferengi Rules of Acquisition, never bid more than you think an item is worth.

So the seller has a second account, you bid it up to your high price, or what you think it is worth, and the seller uses the second account to see how far you will go, and you bid it to your max and then stop..Correct?

[OldAtarian]

It's still dishonest for a buyer to offer $10 for a game that he knows he can get thousands for. There's a special corner in hell set aside for people like that.

 

I definitely agree with this. There's no legal or whatever obligation to tell a seller "hey, that game I just won is worth a million times what I'm paying for it", but there is, in my opinion, a moral one. I've actually had this happen where I informed the seller of their mistake. In the end, they let me have it for the price I paid. I, of course, was keeping it anyway, but I always feel bad for the seller that's uninformed and just trying to make some money and had the potential to make more than they ever dreamed, only to see that shafted by some scum waiting under the surface to convince them to sell for much less with a "deal" that seems incredible on the surface.

 

Ebay is also a special case in that in a true auction, you can actually bid what the item is worth but if there aren't enough bidders to push the price up to that point, you win for less. There's nothing immoral about that, either. Auction has been a legitimate form of trade since ancient times. You made the best offer you could for it, it's not your fault that nobody else bid it up to that point.

 

Shilling What ya gonna do then???

 

 

It wouldn't matter. I would have been prepared pay to the high bid price anyway. That's one of the Ferengi Rules of Acquisition, never bid more than you think an item is worth.

So the seller has a second account, you bid it up to your high price, or what you think it is worth, and the seller uses the second account to see how far you will go, and you bid it to your max and then stop..Correct?

 

Close, but not quite. The few times I've done it I would make my high bid with my main account then immediately underbid it with my second account to max it out. If anyone bids higher than what I think it's worth, they can have it. If I think something is worth $500 and I don't want to wait around 7 or 10 days for the bids to go that high, I would have no problem putting in a $499.99 bid with a second account. If someone else thinks it's worth more than $500, I walk away. I don't really see what the problem is. Ebay gets paid fees based on a final value of at least $500. If I had not bumped up my bid, it might have ended for a lot less and Ebay would have lost money. It happens in real auction houses all the time where someone jumps the line and makes a crazy high bid for something they want badly enough.

 

If the seller shills me, though, that's a different story. I'd report that in a heartbeat. I might even cancel my bid. If I wanted the item that badly, I would have bid it up myself rather than letting my max bid ride. There's a big difference between me inflating my own bid to scare off the small timers and being shilled by the seller to find out my max bid. What it all boils down to, though, is how badly I want the item whether I bump my own bid or not. I think in over 500 items won, I've done it twice maybe 3 times at the most. I don't do it for items that come up for sale every day, only the rare stuff that might be years before I see another one. If a 1400XL proto or 1090 expansion box came up, I'd do it, but not for most other things. For most other things, I'd make my high bid and let it ride. If I happened to be online at the the time a listing ended, I might even snipe it with no guarantee that I wouldn't be outsniped. I lost one recently where I sniped it at 4 seconds and the bid didn't take because a lot of other people sniped at the same time I did. It's not the same as a side deal because I never collude with the seller in any way, for those items I just make sure the bidding gets high enough early on where most people would have to think twice about how badly they want the item before bidding against me.

Edited November 29, 2010 by OldAtarian

[Crazy Climber]

It's still dishonest for a buyer to offer $10 for a game that he knows he can get thousands for. There's a special corner in hell set aside for people like that.

 

I definitely agree with this. There's no legal or whatever obligation to tell a seller "hey, that game I just won is worth a million times what I'm paying for it", but there is, in my opinion, a moral one. I've actually had this happen where I informed the seller of their mistake. In the end, they let me have it for the price I paid. I, of course, was keeping it anyway, but I always feel bad for the seller that's uninformed and just trying to make some money and had the potential to make more than they ever dreamed, only to see that shafted by some scum waiting under the surface to convince them to sell for much less with a "deal" that seems incredible on the surface.

 

Ebay is also a special case in that in a true auction, you can actually bid what the item is worth but if there aren't enough bidders to push the price up to that point, you win for less. There's nothing immoral about that, either. Auction has been a legitimate form of trade since ancient times. You made the best offer you could for it, it's not your fault that nobody else bid it up to that point.

 

Shilling What ya gonna do then???

 

 

It wouldn't matter. I would have been prepared pay to the high bid price anyway. That's one of the Ferengi Rules of Acquisition, never bid more than you think an item is worth.

So the seller has a second account, you bid it up to your high price, or what you think it is worth, and the seller uses the second account to see how far you will go, and you bid it to your max and then stop..Correct?

 

Close, but not quite. The few times I've done it I would make my high bid with my main account then immediately underbid it with my second account to max it out. If anyone bids higher than what I think it's worth, they can have it. If I think something is worth $500 and I don't want to wait around 7 or 10 days for the bids to go that high, I would have no problem putting in a $499.99 bid with a second account. If someone else thinks it's worth more than $500, I walk away. I don't really see what the problem is. Ebay gets paid fees based on a final value of at least $500. If I had not bumped up my bid, it might have ended for a lot less and Ebay would have lost money. It happens in real auction houses all the time where someone jumps the line and makes a crazy high bid for something they want badly enough.

 

If the seller shills me, though, that's a different story. I'd report that in a heartbeat. I might even cancel my bid. If I wanted the item that badly, I would have bid it up myself rather than letting my max bid ride. There's a big difference between me inflating my own bid to scare off the small timers and being shilled by the seller to find out my max bid. What it all boils down to, though, is how badly I want the item whether I bump my own bid or not. I think in over 500 items won, I've done it twice maybe 3 times at the most. I don't do it for items that come up for sale every day, only the rare stuff that might be years before I see another one. If a 1400XL proto or 1090 expansion box came up, I'd do it, but not for most other things. For most other things, I'd make my high bid and let it ride. If I happened to be online at the the time a listing ended, I might even snipe it with no guarantee that I wouldn't be outsniped. I lost one recently where I sniped it at 4 seconds and the bid didn't take because a lot of other people sniped at the same time I did. It's not the same as a side deal because I never collude with the seller in any way, for those items I just make sure the bidding gets high enough early on where most people would have to think twice about how badly they want the item before bidding against me.

You make stuff too complicated

[SoulBlazer]

You're just NOW realizing that?

[Frostbite Bailey]

It's still dishonest for a buyer to offer $10 for a game that he knows he can get thousands for. There's a special corner in hell set aside for people like that.

 

I definitely agree with this. There's no legal or whatever obligation to tell a seller "hey, that game I just won is worth a million times what I'm paying for it", but there is, in my opinion, a moral one. I've actually had this happen where I informed the seller of their mistake. In the end, they let me have it for the price I paid. I, of course, was keeping it anyway, but I always feel bad for the seller that's uninformed and just trying to make some money and had the potential to make more than they ever dreamed, only to see that shafted by some scum waiting under the surface to convince them to sell for much less with a "deal" that seems incredible on the surface.

 

Ebay is also a special case in that in a true auction, you can actually bid what the item is worth but if there aren't enough bidders to push the price up to that point, you win for less. There's nothing immoral about that, either. Auction has been a legitimate form of trade since ancient times. You made the best offer you could for it, it's not your fault that nobody else bid it up to that point.

 

Shilling What ya gonna do then???

 

 

It wouldn't matter. I would have been prepared pay to the high bid price anyway. That's one of the Ferengi Rules of Acquisition, never bid more than you think an item is worth.

So the seller has a second account, you bid it up to your high price, or what you think it is worth, and the seller uses the second account to see how far you will go, and you bid it to your max and then stop..Correct?

 

Close, but not quite. The few times I've done it I would make my high bid with my main account then immediately underbid it with my second account to max it out. If anyone bids higher than what I think it's worth, they can have it. If I think something is worth $500 and I don't want to wait around 7 or 10 days for the bids to go that high, I would have no problem putting in a $499.99 bid with a second account. If someone else thinks it's worth more than $500, I walk away. I don't really see what the problem is. Ebay gets paid fees based on a final value of at least $500. If I had not bumped up my bid, it might have ended for a lot less and Ebay would have lost money. It happens in real auction houses all the time where someone jumps the line and makes a crazy high bid for something they want badly enough.

 

If the seller shills me, though, that's a different story. I'd report that in a heartbeat. I might even cancel my bid. If I wanted the item that badly, I would have bid it up myself rather than letting my max bid ride. There's a big difference between me inflating my own bid to scare off the small timers and being shilled by the seller to find out my max bid. What it all boils down to, though, is how badly I want the item whether I bump my own bid or not. I think in over 500 items won, I've done it twice maybe 3 times at the most. I don't do it for items that come up for sale every day, only the rare stuff that might be years before I see another one. If a 1400XL proto or 1090 expansion box came up, I'd do it, but not for most other things. For most other things, I'd make my high bid and let it ride. If I happened to be online at the the time a listing ended, I might even snipe it with no guarantee that I wouldn't be outsniped. I lost one recently where I sniped it at 4 seconds and the bid didn't take because a lot of other people sniped at the same time I did. It's not the same as a side deal because I never collude with the seller in any way, for those items I just make sure the bidding gets high enough early on where most people would have to think twice about how badly they want the item before bidding against me.

 

Complicated...yes..but I do understand your line of reasoning with a seller who is shilling their account as opposed to you using your second count. You like to make us read

[Crazy Climber]

Complicated...yes..but I do understand your line of reasoning with a seller who is shilling their account as opposed to you using your second count. You like to make us read

Go shill yourself

[OldAtarian]

It's still dishonest for a buyer to offer $10 for a game that he knows he can get thousands for. There's a special corner in hell set aside for people like that.

 

I definitely agree with this. There's no legal or whatever obligation to tell a seller "hey, that game I just won is worth a million times what I'm paying for it", but there is, in my opinion, a moral one. I've actually had this happen where I informed the seller of their mistake. In the end, they let me have it for the price I paid. I, of course, was keeping it anyway, but I always feel bad for the seller that's uninformed and just trying to make some money and had the potential to make more than they ever dreamed, only to see that shafted by some scum waiting under the surface to convince them to sell for much less with a "deal" that seems incredible on the surface.

 

Ebay is also a special case in that in a true auction, you can actually bid what the item is worth but if there aren't enough bidders to push the price up to that point, you win for less. There's nothing immoral about that, either. Auction has been a legitimate form of trade since ancient times. You made the best offer you could for it, it's not your fault that nobody else bid it up to that point.

 

Shilling What ya gonna do then???

 

 

It wouldn't matter. I would have been prepared pay to the high bid price anyway. That's one of the Ferengi Rules of Acquisition, never bid more than you think an item is worth.

So the seller has a second account, you bid it up to your high price, or what you think it is worth, and the seller uses the second account to see how far you will go, and you bid it to your max and then stop..Correct?

 

Close, but not quite. The few times I've done it I would make my high bid with my main account then immediately underbid it with my second account to max it out. If anyone bids higher than what I think it's worth, they can have it. If I think something is worth $500 and I don't want to wait around 7 or 10 days for the bids to go that high, I would have no problem putting in a $499.99 bid with a second account. If someone else thinks it's worth more than $500, I walk away. I don't really see what the problem is. Ebay gets paid fees based on a final value of at least $500. If I had not bumped up my bid, it might have ended for a lot less and Ebay would have lost money. It happens in real auction houses all the time where someone jumps the line and makes a crazy high bid for something they want badly enough.

 

If the seller shills me, though, that's a different story. I'd report that in a heartbeat. I might even cancel my bid. If I wanted the item that badly, I would have bid it up myself rather than letting my max bid ride. There's a big difference between me inflating my own bid to scare off the small timers and being shilled by the seller to find out my max bid. What it all boils down to, though, is how badly I want the item whether I bump my own bid or not. I think in over 500 items won, I've done it twice maybe 3 times at the most. I don't do it for items that come up for sale every day, only the rare stuff that might be years before I see another one. If a 1400XL proto or 1090 expansion box came up, I'd do it, but not for most other things. For most other things, I'd make my high bid and let it ride. If I happened to be online at the the time a listing ended, I might even snipe it with no guarantee that I wouldn't be outsniped. I lost one recently where I sniped it at 4 seconds and the bid didn't take because a lot of other people sniped at the same time I did. It's not the same as a side deal because I never collude with the seller in any way, for those items I just make sure the bidding gets high enough early on where most people would have to think twice about how badly they want the item before bidding against me.

You make stuff too complicated

 

What's complicated about it? Log in with account A, make high bid. Log in with account B and underbid slightly the max bid from account A so that the high bid rises to the top. Nothing complicated about it at all. And as I said, it is not like I do it for every single listing and it's not collusion with the seller, either, because the seller doesn't even know it's being done. The seller just thinks he got two very high bids that were close to each other.

 

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who would have bid less than that wasn't serious about having the item in the first place or they would have bid more.

Edited November 29, 2010 by OldAtarian

[nofrills100]

haha... I'd love to see you at a live auction...

 

auctioneer: 'do i have $200'

oldatarian: (raises hand)

auctioneer: 'at $200 on my left, do see $250?'

oldatarian: (rushes over to the other side of the room and raises hand)

auctioneer: '$250 on my right, I have $250... how about another $50, do I see a taker for $300?'

oldatarian: (rushes across the room and raises hand)

auctioneer: I've got $300 with this gentleman on my left, $350?

...

$400

...

$450

...

$500

...

$550

auctioneer: last call at $550, $550.... do I hear $575?

oldatarian: (dives through the crowd, raises hand just before the gavel hits)

auctioneer: $575...

...

$580

auctioneer: third and final call at $580

oldatarian: (with sly look in his eyes, looks left and then right across the room, and raises hand) '$750'

crowd: 'ooooooooooohhhhh'

[Frostbite Bailey]

Complicated...yes..but I do understand your line of reasoning with a seller who is shilling their account as opposed to you using your second count. You like to make us read

Go shill yourself

Oh no you didn't

[+Psionic]

Using a second account to raise the price of an item you're bidding on for the supposed purpose of "scaring off small-timers"? If that's not the silliest thing I've ever heard, it's in the top two. There's nothing particularly "complicated" about it...it's just completely illogical.

[OldAtarian]

haha... I'd love to see you at a live auction...

 

auctioneer: 'do i have $200'

oldatarian: (raises hand)

auctioneer: 'at $200 on my left, do see $250?'

oldatarian: (rushes over to the other side of the room and raises hand)

auctioneer: '$250 on my right, I have $250... how about another $50, do I see a taker for $300?'

oldatarian: (rushes across the room and raises hand)

auctioneer: I've got $300 with this gentleman on my left, $350?

...

$400

...

$450

...

$500

...

$550

auctioneer: last call at $550, $550.... do I hear $575?

oldatarian: (dives through the crowd, raises hand just before the gavel hits)

auctioneer: $575...

...

$580

auctioneer: third and final call at $580

oldatarian: (with sly look in his eyes, looks left and then right across the room, and raises hand) '$750'

crowd: 'ooooooooooohhhhh'

 

 

Wrong. That's not how it works at all. Like I tried explaining earlier, if you had bothered to look, If the bidding is at $100, I can stand up say $500 any time I want to and that's what the bid will be. If anyone wants to better my bid, they are more than welcome to, but most of the people in the room probably won't even try.

[Crazy Climber]

Using a second account to raise the price of an item you're bidding on for the supposed purpose of "scaring off small-timers"? If that's not the silliest thing I've ever heard, it's in the top two. There's nothing particularly "complicated" about it...it's just completely illogical.

Yeah, I guess complicated was my nice way of saying retarded.

[OldAtarian]

Using a second account to raise the price of an item you're bidding on for the supposed purpose of "scaring off small-timers"? If that's not the silliest thing I've ever heard, it's in the top two. There's nothing particularly "complicated" about it...it's just completely illogical.

 

 

If I have a bid of $500 in, why should I wait several days for it to be bid up by people who aren't serious in the first place and just looking to get something cheap? Maxing out my own bid keeps the children away and lets the adults get on with things.

[homerwannabee]

 

 

 

If I have a bid of $500 in, why should I wait several days for it to be bid up by people who aren't serious in the first place and just looking to get something cheap? Maxing out my own bid keeps the children away and lets the adults get on with things.

The preceding message has been approved by NESROBOTKING, and Holygrailvideogames.

[Crazy Climber]

haha... I'd love to see you at a live auction...

 

auctioneer: 'do i have $200'

oldatarian: (raises hand)

auctioneer: 'at $200 on my left, do see $250?'

oldatarian: (rushes over to the other side of the room and raises hand)

auctioneer: '$250 on my right, I have $250... how about another $50, do I see a taker for $300?'

oldatarian: (rushes across the room and raises hand)

auctioneer: I've got $300 with this gentleman on my left, $350?

...

$400

...

$450

...

$500

...

$550

auctioneer: last call at $550, $550.... do I hear $575?

oldatarian: (dives through the crowd, raises hand just before the gavel hits)

auctioneer: $575...

...

$580

auctioneer: third and final call at $580

oldatarian: (with sly look in his eyes, looks left and then right across the room, and raises hand) '$750'

crowd: 'ooooooooooohhhhh'

Old Atarian?

Okay, I'll stop now Just sounds like something Peter would do, man I love Family Guy

[Cebus Capucinis]

LOL! I am envisioning him bidding, then quickly putting on the Groucho Marx disguise glasses for his 'second account' to bid it up.....or a Snidely Whiplash style moustache... "MUHAHAHAHA TAKE THAT...uhh....MYSELF!"

[+Psionic]

Using a second account to raise the price of an item you're bidding on for the supposed purpose of "scaring off small-timers"? If that's not the silliest thing I've ever heard, it's in the top two. There's nothing particularly "complicated" about it...it's just completely illogical.

If I have a bid of $500 in, why should I wait several days for it to be bid up by people who aren't serious in the first place and just looking to get something cheap? Maxing out my own bid keeps the children away and lets the adults get on with things.

If you have a $500 bid in, why raise the price to $475 (or whatever amount you have in mind) and end up paying more for an item you possibly could've gotten for $450 (or perhaps much less)?

 

How do you know what amount other people are going to bid? How do you know that anyone else will bid at all? How do you know whether other bidders are "serious" or not? What difference does it really make anyway? In either case, what advantage does artificially raising the price give you? "Scaring off" other bidders? Okay fine, you've scared them off. In doing so, you've also guaranteed that the final price will be at or near your maximum bid, thus ensuring no bargain (for anyone else, but also for you).

 

I can't think of any instance where this 'technique' of yours would be advantageous.

[Dino]

I can't think of any instance where this 'technique' of yours would be advantageous.

 

I can. In the seller's instance...

[nofrills100]

haha... I'd love to see you at a live auction...

 

auctioneer: 'do i have $200'

oldatarian: (raises hand)

auctioneer: 'at $200 on my left, do see $250?'

oldatarian: (rushes over to the other side of the room and raises hand)

auctioneer: '$250 on my right, I have $250... how about another $50, do I see a taker for $300?'

oldatarian: (rushes across the room and raises hand)

auctioneer: I've got $300 with this gentleman on my left, $350?

...

$400

...

$450

...

$500

...

$550

auctioneer: last call at $550, $550.... do I hear $575?

oldatarian: (dives through the crowd, raises hand just before the gavel hits)

auctioneer: $575...

...

$580

auctioneer: third and final call at $580

oldatarian: (with sly look in his eyes, looks left and then right across the room, and raises hand) '$750'

crowd: 'ooooooooooohhhhh'

 

 

Wrong. That's not how it works at all. Like I tried explaining earlier, if you had bothered to look, If the bidding is at $100, I can stand up say $500 any time I want to and that's what the bid will be. If anyone wants to better my bid, they are more than welcome to, but most of the people in the room probably won't even try.

 

r.e.l.a.x.!

[homerwannabee]

There is one advantage I just realized with Oldatarian's method. It stops side dealers. If Oldatarian does not shill his own auction, than the game till the very last hour stays at $50 instead of $500. What this does is it allows for a person to try to convince the seller to cancel their auction, and put a buy it now of $199 on it. But with Oldatarian making it $500, it makes it virtually impossible for a side dealer to come in, and do this. And since it keeps side dealers away, I actually do see an advantage to doing this.

[OldAtarian]

Using a second account to raise the price of an item you're bidding on for the supposed purpose of "scaring off small-timers"? If that's not the silliest thing I've ever heard, it's in the top two. There's nothing particularly "complicated" about it...it's just completely illogical.

If I have a bid of $500 in, why should I wait several days for it to be bid up by people who aren't serious in the first place and just looking to get something cheap? Maxing out my own bid keeps the children away and lets the adults get on with things.

If you have a $500 bid in, why raise the price to $475 (or whatever amount you have in mind) and end up paying more for an item you possibly could've gotten for $450 (or perhaps much less)?

 

How do you know what amount other people are going to bid? How do you know that anyone else will bid at all? How do you know whether other bidders are "serious" or not? What difference does it really make anyway? In either case, what advantage does artificially raising the price give you? "Scaring off" other bidders? Okay fine, you've scared them off. In doing so, you've also guaranteed that the final price will be at or near your maximum bid, thus ensuring no bargain (for anyone else, but also for you).

 

I can't think of any instance where this 'technique' of yours would be advantageous.

 

It's advantageous when the next item like it won't show up for another 5 years. When was the last time you saw a 1400XL on ebay? I've NEVER seen a complete 1400XL in the 11 years I've been online, only the occasional proto motherboard and I think I've seen maybe 2 of those, and they were in 2000 and 2001 if I remember correctly. That's where the advantage comes in. Bidding it up early discourages a lot of people from competing against me. If someone really thinks that 1400XL proto is worth more than whatever it was I bid on it they are welcome to it, but they aren't going to get it for $5 I can guarantee you that.

Edited November 30, 2010 by OldAtarian

[OldAtarian]

There is one advantage I just realized with Oldatarian's method. It stops side dealers. If Oldatarian does not shill his own auction, than the game till the very last hour stays at $50 instead of $500. What this does is it allows for a person to try to convince the seller to cancel their auction, and put a buy it now of $199 on it. But with Oldatarian making it $500, it makes it virtually impossible for a side dealer to come in, and do this. And since it keeps side dealers away, I actually do see an advantage to doing this.

 

Exactly my point. Anyone selling anything really rare or valuable is going to be bombarded with side deals. I don't like side deals because I don't like the shadiness of the whole thing. The guy with the Intellivision games got robbed, plain and simple. The side dealer stole value that didn't belong to him by making a lowball offer to end the listing. I'm not doing that. Do you want some sneaky S.O.B. to win the listing or do you want to have fair chance at winning, too? All I am doing is making sure that others at least have a fair chance at winning and making it harder for the sneaky side dealer to take advantage of people. If someone wants to unleash the big guns and outbid me, then fine, that's fair but what the side dealer does is not fair. It's not fair to the seller, it's not fair to the other bidders and it's not fair to ebay.

Edited November 30, 2010 by OldAtarian