Atari 2600 Boulder Dash (R) Announced!

[Master Phruby]

I don't know if any comments about begging and whining were directed at me among others. I only offered a comment, my thought.

 

I couldn't buy the game when it was available.

 

If it was available now, would I buy it? Maybe. The price was pretty high to me.

 

Is it a big deal to me that I can't buy it? Not really. I never had much attachment to this game. I just like having good new stuff to play on my Atari systems.

 

 

The game just went for $127.50 on ebay.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121190275722?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

[+batari]

Technically, the bank switching is not discrete. An ARM or some other microprocessor inside the melody board regulates the bankswitching, so technically, the bankswitch scheme is handled by a coprocessor. Boulderdash probably uses the most sophisticated bank-switching scheme of any Atari game ever made, so to say it's pure 6507 or even a vanilla read-based bankswitch scheme like the run of the mill 8, 16, or 32k carts, is a misnomer.

That isn't true. The bankswitching scheme is actually pretty basic. The bankswitching was used for another release many years ago (I want to say Tronman, and I won't comment on the value or price of that cart, as it was a bit controversial) but I want to say this was 2005 or 2006, and the board used three chips - an EPROM, A RAM chip and a simple PLD or perhaps a low-end complex PLD like a 9536. It's hardly the most complex or even close - DPC (Pitfall II) is far more complex and some other schemes like E7 arguably are as well.

 

Boulderdash uses a microcontroller only because it could be done in a single chip and this was cheaper to do so than to use the three chip board from Kroko. In its essence, that makes it no more complicated than any other Melody game, really. When you consider the complexity of 3E itself, that is nowhere near the most complex microbontroller game either - DPC+ games blow this away.

 

The contention that this is "pure 6507" is therefore totally valid in my opinion.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Still though, comparing a 4k game to something like Boulderdash is like comparing NES Super Mario Brothers (NROM) to Castlevania III (MMC5). All kinds of bizzare stuff going on within the cartridge that shouldn't even be possible.

[+Andrew Davie]

Still though, comparing a 4k game to something like Boulderdash is like comparing NES Super Mario Brothers (NROM) to Castlevania III (MMC5). All kinds of bizzare stuff going on within the cartridge that shouldn't even be possible.

 

"All kinds of bizarre stuff". Like, what? You don't know what you're talking about. Give it up.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

"All kinds of bizarre stuff". Like, what? You don't know what you're talking about. Give it up.

What I meant by "bizarre", was anything once thought impossible, or that the console was never intended to do. Atari VCS was designed to play Combat and PONG, yet some of the stuff that's been achieved over the past 30 years is absolutely mind blowing! NES was meant to scroll vertically OR horizontally, but not both. Super Mario Brothers 3 changed that notion. Diagonal scrolling on NES is still impossible or at least extremely difficult without an extra 2k of PPU RAM inside the cart to support 4-screen mirroring. That is one of many examples outside the scope of simple bank-switching to add extra ROM. I think it is safe to say also that a game like Boulder dash would have been impossible on the VCS with just wire traces and a ROM chip.

Edited October 15, 2013 by stardust4ever

[+Andrew Davie]

What I meant by "bizarre", was anything once thought impossible, or that the console was never intended to do. Atari VCS was designed to play Combat and PONG, yet some of the stuff that's been achieved over the past 30 years is absolutely mind blowing! NES was meant to scroll vertically OR horizontally, but not both. Super Mario Brothers 3 changed that notion. Diagonal scrolling on NES is still impossible or at least extremely difficult without an extra 2k of PPU RAM inside the cart to support 4-screen mirroring. That is one of many examples outside the scope of simple bank-switching to add extra ROM. I think it is safe to say also that a game like Boulder dash would have been impossible on the VCS with just wire traces and a ROM chip.

 

For the record, I wrote an 8-directional split-screen scroll on the NES (see it in the hill-climb in Bigfoot). This used NO additional cartridge hardware or RAM. Just the plain vanilla NES scroll. No cartridge or MMC support required. It's supposed to be impossible. It's not, as I did it! I will be happy to detail the method for the non-believers. But in any case, you're also wrong about your "safe to say" comment regarding Boulder Dash. The bankswitch scheme is really very very simple.

 

 

That's my scrolling engine right there. The bigfoot proggy was written by Rod Richards, but the scrolling engine running there is all my work. Not the flat-view at the start -- skip to 2:15 for the hill climb event, with side view. That's my baby. Big sprite system is mine, too -- fascinating optimised best-fit matrix of sprites over aribtrary shapes. Scroll works just fine on a plain vanilla NES.

[LidLikesIntellivision]

I know it's unlikely but what can be done in the event of a damaged BD?

If the owner send his cartridge, can it be repaired? It's a service not offered in AA store but since BD is limited, it would be good to know there's a hope for the unlucky owners who by accident or hardware failure lose the precious.

By repair, I refer to the chip, not labels, box, diamonds etc.

[+Andrew Davie]

I know it's unlikely but what can be done in the event of a damaged BD?

If the owner send his cartridge, can it be repaired? It's a service not offered in AA store but since BD is limited, it would be good to know there's a hope for the unlucky owners who by accident or hardware failure lose the precious.

By repair, I refer to the chip, not labels, box, diamonds etc.

 

These issues will be handled on a case by case basis. I am amenable to reasonable repairs/replacements. Hardware failures will be covered by implied warranty, and replaced if possible.

Cheers

A

[Andromeda Stardust]

EPROMs last around 30 years. Flash memory might go sooner that that. The tech is still too young to know for sure.

 

Also, nukes are bad for your games.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

I wonder if a replacement cart would count to the license limit or not.

[Andromeda Stardust]

I wonder if a replacement cart would count to the license limit or not.

Somehow, I don't think warranty service counts, but who knows. Somebody's gonna be playing on that old Boulderdash cart 20-30 years from now, when it starts to glitch up due to bit rot. No telling it AtariAge will still exist by then or not. Maybe the World Wide Web will be replaced by the Great Galactic Grid. People's lives will be entirely virtual. It's like the Matrix, man. You won't even know it, but that Atari you're playing on is merely a virtual representation, while your mind exists solely in a fetus that's plugged into the matrix. Maybe it's already reached that point aka we're all living in virtual bubbles but we just don't know it yet.

[+Gemintronic]

 

For the record, I wrote an 8-directional split-screen scroll on the NES (see it in the hill-climb in Bigfoot). This used NO additional cartridge hardware or RAM. Just the plain vanilla NES scroll. No cartridge or MMC support required. It's supposed to be impossible. It's not, as I did it! I will be happy to detail the method for the non-believers. But in any case, you're also wrong about your "safe to say" comment regarding Boulder Dash. The bankswitch scheme is really very very simple.

 

I'm a believer AND I'd like to know what your technique for scrolling was. The inside scoop on the internals of Boulderdash was inspiring to me!

 

Er, also.. my Google-fu is failing me on this. What size is Boulderdash? Is it over 64k?

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Boulder Dash 2600 uses a 32k ROM. But there is still quite some space left.

[adamchevy]

I know this has probably been asked before so I might as well ask again. Has First Star Software ever considered releasing another run of boulder dash 2600 considering how well it sold?

[+Psionic]

I know this has probably been asked before so I might as well ask again. Has First Star Software ever considered releasing another run of boulder dash 2600 considering how well it sold?

It's not up to them, because First Star really had nothing to do with developing or publishing the game...it's just a question of money for them. The decision really would rest on Albert, Andrew Davie and Thomas Jentzsch. It's my understanding that the license that was negotiated between First Star and AA was for a specific number of cartridges and no more. Another run of carts would necessitate a new license being negotiated, and Andrew Davie has said repeatedly that will not happen and no more cartridges will be made.

[adamchevy]

It sure is a great game!

 

[Andromeda Stardust]

Must have been a hard license to negotiate .

I don't know. I think we at AtariAge should consider ourselves extremely lucky that this game even saw the light of day. I mean, look what happened to Princess Rescue?

 

On the bright side, there are 250 Boulderdash carts in circulation. That's ten times as large a production as Air Raid, with only 25 copies purported to exist. Why do I bring this up?

 

Air Raid has been dumped. So has Red Sea Crossing, with even fewer copies known to exist. Given time, Boulderdash will eventually get dumped. Ethical issues aside, it will likely be much more difficult to dump than a normal 4k game, but sooner or later, someone will do it. I am not that someone, before someone accuses me of promoting piracy. I'm just saying, it's been done before, and it will happen again.

[high voltage]

Red Sea Crossing has been dumped? I wouldn't mind checking it out, but it's not on Atarimania

[+Andrew Davie]

It sure is a great game!

 

From that comment I conclude that your copy has arrived.

Cheers

A

[+Andrew Davie]

 

I'm a believer AND I'd like to know what your technique for scrolling was. The inside scoop on the internals of Boulderdash was inspiring to me!

 

 

Topic: Split screen 8-directional scrolling on NES in Bigfoot.

 

The NES offers two scrolling modes: horizontal OR vertical. The modes offer either a column OR a row which holds data about to scroll on the screen. So if you do an 8-direction scroll, you don't have the ability to have a row AND a column for the new data about to be seen. Think: 32 char wide screen, and you scroll one pixel horizontally. Now you're seeing 33 characters; 7 pixels of one edge character, and 1 pixel of the other edge character. That's why you need the extra row/column. But as I said, the NES offers only one of those.

 

Secondly, the NES only allows you to set the vertical scroll at the start of a frame. So, if you want a split screen with independent scrolling, you're out of luck. Because whatever you set as the vertical scroll is 'stuck' for the rest of the screen, so your lower window cannot independently scroll.

 

But, when you reset the graphics pointer which gives you the location of the screen characters, the vertical scroll also resets to zero. So, if you change the graphics pointer midscreen, you have a vertical scroll of 0 from that point onwards, independent of what you set it to at the top of the frame.

 

The NES has a single sprite collision bit, which allows you to know when sprite 0 and playfield 'hit' each other. By placing the sprite halfway down the screen, and checking the collision bit, you can tell when you're at the point you need to switch to the second scrolling section. At that point, you reset your graphics pointers (which, as noted, also reset the vertical scroll). But that's no good, because you always have the start of characters drawn from that point onwards. So you're always stuck at 0 vertical scroll.

 

BUT, if you vary the scanline at which you place that sprite, based on the 0-7 line of the vertical scroll you want, then you effectively do the vertical scroll manually. However, this gives you a really ugly variable-position scanliine at which the start of the lower scrolling area begins. So, this leads to the final solution...

 

Set the vertical scroll and graphics pointer for the top scrolling area. Delay to the end of that scrolling area (say, half the screen). Turn off the screen. Manually delay by the number of scanlines you want to vertical scroll the lower section (0 to 7). Now write the graphics pointer (which sets the vertical scroll to 0). Now delay by 7- the number of scanlines. Your total delay is now 8 scanlines, so you're ALWAYS now at the same scanline on the screen. Turn ON the colours or screen so everything is visible. You have a second window with a variable vertical scroll (different to the top window vertical scroll).

 

That's how it was done. Hope that makes sense.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Red Sea Crossing has been dumped? I wouldn't mind checking it out, but it's not on Atarimania

If someone had made repros of it, it had to be dumped first.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

That's how it was done. Hope that makes sense.

Nice. Seems people employed a lot of tricks to pull stuff off once thought impossible. Kinda like how the Atari VCS is not designed for asymmetric playfields but tons of games do this anyway by counting CPU cycles and rewriting the playfield register at exactly the correct time.

 

You mention the fact that the vertical scroll can only be set at the top of the screen, or reset to zero anywhere. I assume this is how Super Mario Brothers 3 did the status bar. I'm assuming it's possible to set the H-scroll anywhere you want, because I've seen some pretty good use of faux parallax scrolling in certain titles. Basically there are several layers of repeating background tiles, and each layer scrolls at progressively faster speeds going down, giving a cheap illusion of depth. I have seen this with space shooters before.

[+Andrew Davie]

Nice. Seems people employed a lot of tricks to pull stuff off once thought impossible. Kinda like how the Atari VCS is not designed for asymmetric playfields but tons of games do this anyway by counting CPU cycles and rewriting the playfield register at exactly the correct time.

 

You mention the fact that the vertical scroll can only be set at the top of the screen, or reset to zero anywhere. I assume this is how Super Mario Brothers 3 did the status bar. I'm assuming it's possible to set the H-scroll anywhere you want, because I've seen some pretty good use of faux parallax scrolling in certain titles. Basically there are several layers of repeating background tiles, and each layer scrolls at progressively faster speeds going down, giving a cheap illusion of depth. I have seen this with space shooters before.

 

Yes you could set horizontal scroll anywhere. Later cartridge hardware allowed for improvements in machine capability, but the technique I described works on a stock-standard NES.

[adamchevy]

Yes I did receive the game Mr. Davie. Thanks again!

[+Andrew Davie]

Looks like it's up on eBay -- this is the only copy I've ever signed, so anyone looking for a copy of Boulder Dash should definitely consider bidding on this item. Good luck to the seller -- for the record, I have no problem with this on-sale. Interesting; doesn't come up on a search but does by item #

Cheers

A