D.K. VCS

[+nanochess]

It's me or this thread doesn't talk anymore of D.K. VCS...

[Keatah]

ARM/Harmony games can (and do) look & feel like original VCS games. They have the same snap and instant response as titles from the early 80's. I almost want to call it VCS-II or something. That's a big plus. By the way, is there any history and development notes and things and links related to the Harmony? Something like for good bathroom reading?

 

I'd like to see the little 70MHz brain go to work on some 3-d transformations, vector stuff. Or on the other side of the equation, what about strategy and plotting and building up a rich & detailed game world?

[+Nathan Strum]

ARM/Harmony games can (and do) look & feel like original VCS games. They have the same snap and instant response as titles from the early 80's.

 

This, to me, is a very important point. I've been testing (and collaborating on) Darrell's new game for some time now (and Space Rocks as well), and they both play, look and feel exactly like original 2600 games. You gain some nice benefits like more memory and CPU time so you can do asymmetrical playfields, more objects onscreen at once, and so on. But the basic limitations are still there: 40 playfield pixels, two 8-bit sprites, two missiles, a ball and a background. You have more flexibility in how you use them, but the basic pieces are the same.

 

If DCP+ made the game look like a 7800 game, I wouldn't be interested in it. At that point, it's just as well to develop for the 7800. But this is definitely a 2600 game, and is instantly recognizable as such.

[Andromeda Stardust]

You have to enjoy the process. If you don't, you stand no chance of making a game that is fun for anyone.

Exactly. If it's not fun for the programmer, well it won't be fun for anybody. But that never stopped shovelware writers from trying to make a fast buck. Chase the Chuck Wagon? Tooth Protectors?

 

 

I know that you love your black hat, but I'm still going to try to convince you to switch to a white hat at every opportunity.

White or Black hat is a personal preference. I prefer to wear black ones myself. What is important, is that every hat have a tin foil liner!

 

Random Terrain

 

 

It's pretty clear that most homebrewers want other people to play their games. They can have fun expressing themselves and challenging themselves, but the thing at the top of the list should always be making a fun game. If impressing other programmers with your elegant code is higher on the list than making a fun game, you might as well just make demos and forget about games.

While it is true that homebrewers enjoy other people playing their games, it has to be done for the programmer's own enjoyment first. I can guarantee if the programmer does not enjoy his/her game, nobody else will either. Productivity software excluded.

 

Boy, this thread sure changed since the last time I checked it.

Word.

 

It's me or this thread doesn't talk anymore of D.K. VCS...

That's because the guy behind it is spending more time designing the game than posting in an internet forum. We all need to get out and play more, whether it be outside or holding a joystick in front of the TV.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

If DCP+ made the game look like a 7800 game, I wouldn't be interested in it.

Hmm, what exactly makes a 2600 game look like a 2600 game? Where to draw the line. And what if someone emulates the 2600 look with a 7800?

 

We are all subjective here.

[enthusi]

Uh, interesting discussions.

I for one prefer to stay close to the 'original restrictions'.

Even when I think of Pitfall2 I think, cool, BUT....

But that's just me.

What should be stated clearly, however, is WHAT the game is based on.

Of course this is just my personal pride So my 4k game doesnt look toooooo stinky compared to ARM, 1024 KB games

I'd love to see categories separated more transparent.

2KB,4KB,8KB vanilla,..., extra RAM, Bbasic, ARM, DPC+, Harmony only etc...

Are there any lists online btw? About 'recent' homebrew and their hardware usage?

[Thomas Jentzsch]

What should be stated clearly, however, is WHAT the game is based on.

That's only interesting for us coders. The usual customer will not understand or care anyway.

[RevEng]

[...]

I'd love to see categories separated more transparent.

2KB,4KB,8KB vanilla,..., extra RAM, Bbasic, ARM, DPC+, Harmony only etc...

[...]

I'm all for basic transparency in threads where games are released, and for the most part developers have done this. A few haven't disclosed that bB was used in their efforts, which irks me a bit, as it's passing off batari's kernel as their own.

 

But its a bit of a slippery slope. The guy who uses only documented opcodes is going to want that status listed on everybody's thread or box. Same with the guy who derives 6-digit score from descriptions, instead of borrowing the code from online sources.

 

And I agree with Thomas. Only the coders would care.

[+darryl1970]

I love to see activity in the Atari Age forums, and this is an interesting topic for discussion. With that said, is there a way to bump this topic to its own thread. I would really like to monitor this thread for updates to D.K. VCS. I think it may be confusing once progress resumes. Also, I want to monitor this thread, but I keep getting emails that do not pertain to it. Thanks!

[+SpiceWare]

I would like to say that I'm extremely excited for your new project. Am I correct in assuming it will use an ARM processor? I just want to publicly thank you for all the games that you've released so far. They are all amazing and above all extremely fun to play. Keep up the great work!

 

 

You are correct. Work started on the project in 2008, then it stalled out and was rebooted in 2010 to use DPC+ with ARM. We've fixed problems with DPC+ that turned up during its development, as well as added ARM support to Stella so we could test using it.

 

Thanks!

[Joe Musashi]

That's because the guy behind it is spending more time designing the game than posting in an internet forum. We all need to get out and play more, whether it be outside or holding a joystick in front of the TV.

 

Finally someone who's getting it. There will be a new announcement one of the next days.

 

I love to see activity in the Atari Age forums, and this is an interesting topic for discussion. With that said, is there a way to bump this topic to its own thread. I would really like to monitor this thread for updates to D.K. VCS. I think it may be confusing once progress resumes. Also, I want to monitor this thread, but I keep getting emails that do not pertain to it. Thanks!

 

I think most people here agree that there's nothing wrong with additional hardware, but a developer's preference of what to use (and what not to use) should be respected.

 

It still should be valuable to have a separate thread to discuss this, if only to avoid that this topic comes up over and over again in every new game thread. Maybe someone (who is more eloquent than me) could start a new thread in the programming forum.

[enthusi]

I too vote for a thread-split, but since I wouldnt know how to do that, I post here still.

Of course hats off to everyone coding for the 2600 at all - by any means

Also of course this is highly subjective. A list about usage of extra RAM/ROM/CPU would be mostly/merely interesting for coder, but then again, I am a coder so I am interested in it

Concerning BatariBasic credits, I think they are due not to brandmark a 'basic game' but rather to give credits where credits are due.

If I want to ridicule myself I can always add '100% pure Assembler' stickers on my own stuff if I wanted to

However, in particular for homebrews Id like to know what's "behind" and in it. Out of curiosity. It might very much influence my personal interest in a certain game but it certainly has no impact on the FUN of a game )

[+stephena]

If you know what to look for, there are ways to use the debugger in Stella to tell if a game is bB based. And also which scanline it starts at (in Stella, most bB games start very close to the top of the 'screen', so it almost looks like it needs to be shifted downwards).

[Andromeda Stardust]

Part of the homebrew scene is sharing code so that others can use it. Nobody needs to create a six digit score display from scratch using assembly, because such code has existed and been in use for 30 years at least. Batari Basic is just a tool that makes it easier for people to program their own games. In fact, I wish something similar to Batari existed for NES too as most NES homebrews are still written in basic assembly and few coders are any good at writing 2A03/6502 code. In fact, until recently, the vast majority of NES homebrews were NROM or used basic 74xx bankswitch logic. As it stands, tons more homebrew games currently exist for Atari than NES, and I believe Batari Basic plays a part in that. With NES, it's mostly hacks and repros unfortunately.

[+Random Terrain]

If you know what to look for, there are ways to use the debugger in Stella to tell if a game is bB based. And also which scanline it starts at (in Stella, most bB games start very close to the top of the 'screen', so it almost looks like it needs to be shifted downwards).

 

Yeah, a YStart number of 28 seems to match what a real Atari 2600 shows on a TV screen.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

If you know what to look for, there are ways to use the debugger in Stella to tell if a game is bB based.

In 99% I can spot that just by looking at a screen shot.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Nobody needs to create a six digit score display from scratch using assembly, because such code has existed and been in use for 30 years at least.

True. But if you only reuse the existing routines, there will be no progress.

 

E.g. I have developed my own 48+ pixel displays for Thrust and Jammed because I wanted them to be colored or having more pixels. The same with BD, where we wanted a 2 x 4 character display.

 

Using predefined routines shortens the development process, but it also prevents people from extending the limits of the 2600. And the latter is a major key, why the 2600 was and still is so successful.

[enthusi]

I fully agree,

even the very Combat uses 'tricks' that certainly were no part of any 'guide book'.

If size is a limit you'd want to change/modify/rewrite most routines anyway

[RevEng]

Genesis has a blurry image with input lag in compsoite on some HDTVs. Same deal with Wii using composite cables, though 480i displays somewhat better (it has the ventian blinds effect, but lacks the blurriness and has better color) and lacks lag with component cables. However, 240p either gets upscaled in a bad way or displays a distorted screen. I know TVs are different, but even with systems like PS2 and Wii, the display was not flawless for 240p games.

It's possible to display VCS graphics at 480i, at least on some TVs. Amongst others, Andreas/Joe Musashi played with it in the past.

 

On my HDTV, 2600 graphics in 480i mode display similar to how you describe the 480i Wii display. More interestingly, I found that 30 Hz sprite flicker doesn't appear... flickery.

 

I have no clue how many HDTVs this is true for. Some seem to display 2600 240p output as 480i even without an attempt to interlace the frames. I suspect other HDTVs resist 480i from the 2600 and display interlaced frames as 240p.

 

If a significant portion of HDTVs are like mine, I think this game could greatly benefit from an optional 480i mode.

[iesposta]

It's possible to display VCS graphics at 480i, at least on some TVs. Amongst others, Andreas/Joe Musashi played with it in the past.

 

On my HDTV, 2600 graphics in 480i mode display similar to how you describe the 480i Wii display. More interestingly, I found that 30 Hz sprite flicker doesn't appear... flickery.

 

I have no clue how many HDTVs this is true for. Some seem to display 2600 240p output as 480i even without an attempt to interlace the frames. I suspect other HDTVs resist 480i from the 2600 and display interlaced frames as 240p.

 

If a significant portion of HDTVs are like mine, I think this game could greatly benefit from an optional 480i mode.

Are you hacking this into basic? I noticed in the source code "if const interlace"

[RevEng]

Let's not sidetrack the thread anymore, but yes, it's some testing code that is only conditionally included, for Interlace display. Currently only NTSC is supported.

[Joe Musashi]

To get back on topic:

 

On my HDTV, 2600 graphics in 480i mode display similar to how you describe the 480i Wii display. More interestingly, I found that 30 Hz sprite flicker doesn't appear... flickery.

If a significant portion of HDTVs are like mine, I think this game could greatly benefit from an optional 480i mode.

 

I'm going to try this with the title screen at least and see what's happening.

 

There probably won't be enough space in the final game, as this makes v-syncing more complicated. It still may be an option for a 64K DK VCS+ version ( if anyone wants to make one ).

[Andromeda Stardust]

It's a well known fact that the vast majority of HDTVs are not equipped to handle 240p signals and will display them as if they were 480i. This results as tiny venitian blinds visible on the screen whenever 30Hz flicker is used. Atari, NES, SNES, and Genesis are all 240p yet get processed as 480i. Atari systems have additional issues due to the spec being slightly off from NTSC standard in ways I can't explain. If you take offense to getting venetian blinds or other artifacts on your screen, then go out to Goodwill, Salvation Army, pawn shop, or whatever local thrift store and buy an old CRT television set for less than the cost of a modern homebrew. There are plenty of nice ones going into landfills every day; sometimes I even see ones on the curb. Rescue an old CRT TV from an early death and play your games the way they were meant to be played!

Edited September 27, 2013 by stardust4ever

[Andromeda Stardust]

True. But if you only reuse the existing routines, there will be no progress.

 

I'm talking about reinventing the wheel here, not innovating. Wheels were invented 4000+ years ago, but we are still adding improvements. Pneumatic tires, disc brakes, rack-and-pinion steering, rear differential, geared transmission, gasoline engine, etc are all improvements that could not have existed without the wheel being invented first. The way you speak makes it sound as if we should all still be riding around on horse-and-buggy.

 

Each time a routine gets reused, the coder adds to it or improves it in some way. Then they make their efforts available to future programmers which makes it easier to create better and more innovative games. Innovations like Bouderdash or Princess Rescue could never have existed had PONG and COMBAT not laid the groundwork.

Edited September 27, 2013 by stardust4ever

[Keatah]

It's insane the amount of CRTs sitting by the curbs in our area, my town and the surrounding 2 towns. A day or so before the dust cart swings by you can pick up 10 or more of these things. Been going on all damned summer. A frakking eyesore..

 

Most of these are the bigger late model flatscreens, so I don't know how good they are compared to the older curved tube models.