Why isn't the 130XE the dominant Atari 8bit?

[+Larry]

I like the XE. Like another user here, I moved to the XE right from an 800. WOW!!! Then I got my first 800XL when they were being "blown out" -- $50 at Zayre. Boy was I disappointed! No chroma and incredibly bad video -- FUZZY graytones, no ramdisk for instant swaps. OK, it had a better keyboard (and unbeknownst to me then), socketed chips. Put it in the closet. Several years later when I learned to mod the things, then I took it out and started correcting some perceived ills. In went a Newell 256K, in went a Super Video (that sure was a lot of fun...). In the meantime, I had done a 320K upgrade to the XE, and added a Newell Ramrod OS module. Tacked on an MIO (with the XE adapter that cures the standing on your head to insert the cart. And last, but not least, I still like the XE's because they are smaller. 800 with 810 was like a tank + APC setting on my desk. 1200XL only slightly better. 800XL and 600XL some better. (600XL, now there is a machine -- 16K and half a video circuit (in the U.S., at least).

 

But I've mellowed a bit. The socketed chips, roomier inside, and the nicer keyboard do have an appeal, so I now usually use an upgraded 800XL.

 

BTW, I like the gray...

 

-Larry

[ricortes]

You have to consider the audience. What's here is a combination of hackers, power users, programmers, BBS operators, and from a hardware standpoint, survivors.

 

I do own two 130XE and they are nice machines relative to stock anything else. The biggest problems are keyboard, non socketed motherboard, and the extra 64k of RAM just isn't enough. For the aforementioned 'special interest group', these are show stoppers or at least hurdles you have to cross. One wag once told me, 'having a single drive is like only having one crutch with a broken leg.' I've found this applies to the 64k of extra XE memory. If you only have a single drive, you need at least the same amount of ram disk space to make a copy w/o a lot of disk swapping.

 

*Anybody* can swap chips from socketed XL to find the bad part. You need to be good at desoldering to accomplish that with an XE. I imagine half the early deaths of XEs is due to the difficulty in fixing them. Eventually the only good ones will be in the hands of people that are either awfully good at repair or bought/converted to a socketed motherboard.

 

Lot's of hacks to make our 8 bits suitable for our purposes go easier with a socketed mother board. Everything from modified OS ROMs to daughter boards just go so much faster and fool proof with a socketed motherboard.

 

For room under the hood, Bob Wooley was the one that converted me to 1200XLs. I actually took a RAMBO out of an 800XL to put in one of my 1200s. Thing is fugly with stacks of chips and wires everywhere, but the lid still screws down w/o a problem. Only thing I don't like about it is a SDX cart doesn't fit well.

 

The kicker is: I plan on a retro gaming night with my grandchildren, and one of my bone stock 130XE will get the nod for that! They are still too young to properly care for any kind of hardware, but if for some reason they asked for an Atari 8 bit, they would get a 130XE. Different audience.

[ACML]

I've never owned an XE. Seen them and tried them at user group meetings in the 80's. Just not impressed. Yes, the ability to have a RAM disk is great, but as others have already stated, 128K isn't enough to emulate even a 90K SSSD disk to avoid disk swapping. I didn't like the keyboard as it was being compared to the 1200XL and 800 with which I had many years of experience. I liked to modifiy machines in the latter 80's and a non socketed board was not an attractive option. For many, again like others have already opined, it came out too late in the 8-bit life cycle. The ST and PC made sure most didn't stay interested in the XE line for long. Just look at Ebay actual sold prices for the 8-bit computers. The machines that sell for the most are the 1200XL and 400/800. The 130XE comes in a distant second, slightly in front of the 800XL.

[eeun]

Yeah, nostalgia, as has already been mentioned.

 

If I could choose to own any 8-bit Atari, it would be a 400, 48K, with upgraded keyboard. Why? Because that's what my first 8-bit was in its final iteration. And a couple 810s.

 

Second choice would be the 1450XLD, because that's the computer I lusted for behind my 400's back.

[Fres]

Back in the day, a 64k ramdrive came in pretty handy. I was pretty jealous of my friends who had 256k 800XLs, however.

[WestofHouse]

I like the XE. Like another user here, I moved to the XE right from an 800. WOW!!!

 

Same here. I was very pleased with the 130XE. The 800 will always be my sentimental favorite because it was my first, but my 130XE got me all the way through college and beyond -- past the point where most had moved on to IBM PCs. I typed every one of my college term papers on it, crappy keyboard and all. The only reason I no longer have it is because I loaned it a co-worker in the early '90s, and he promptly moved out of state and took it with him. Bastard.

 

Last year when I finally got back into A8s after over 20 years I actually looked for a 130XE for sale but couldn't find a good deal on one. Even though I skipped the XL models back in the day I ended up buying an 800XL as a compromise between my beloved 800 and 130XE.

Edited July 30, 2013 by WestofHouse

[MEtalGuy66]

The answeris that the "XL/XE"is the dominant atari 8-bit.. Since the inception of the 600XL and 800XL, all atari 8bits have essentially (electrically) been the same machine. The 65xe, 130xe,and XEGS are all "800XLs" with slight alterations to the build spec. These machines all ship with the same OS, and compatability differences between the 5 machines are negligable except for those determined by memory size requirements and subtle manufacturing "defects" where certain production runs of the custom chips are concerned.

 

Which one you decide to own/use depends on all the stuff people have been discussing earlier in this thread, however, you can safeley consider anything made after the 800XL an effective "clone" of that design.

[Subby]

Thanks guys!

Learned much here, I did expect a few more "votes" for the 130 though. But as someone said, the world had pretty much moved on by the time the 130 came out. I know I had.

I guess I'll have to pull out my 800XL and compare keyboards between the 800, 800XL and 130XE. That might make an interesting topic.

 

Edited July 30, 2013 by Subby

[+wood_jl]

Crappy keyboard, awkward cartridge port, less-than-great video output, fully unsocketed motherboard.

 

You're right on the money, except (purely my opinion) the part about the video output.

 

Am I wrong on this? Is there nobody else who agrees? The 130XE has about the BEST *STOCK* composite video output of anything in the line. I can't decide if it looks better or worse than the ORIGINAL (beige) 800, as they both have superb (for stock) video output. I'm not just talking about the fact that the chroma line is hooked up (which is a major plus to both 800(beige) and 130XE), but I mean that if you hook up the chroma line on an 800XL, it's nowhere near as sharp as the 130XE - without an additional video mod. The 1200XL (as much as I like the machine) has an even suckier (than the 800XL) output, with the chroma (or not) line hooked up. I'm not arguing that you couldn't "Super Video Mod" a 1200XL or 800XL and make it better; I'm arguing *stock* output, and I've never heard anybody complain about 130XE (or beige 800, for that matter) video output, before.

 

Am I wrong on this? Does the 130XE video output - indeed - suck, and I'm not seeing things clearly? I agree with all the other criticisms, though I love all the machines. The 130XE was too late to be the dominant machine, and its cheapness didn't help. But I thought the video was (is) excellent, for stock.

Edited July 31, 2013 by wood_jl

[1050]

But I thought the video was (is) excellent, for stock.

I assumed and I think correctly that he meant the channel 3 TV RF out version which was just horrible here as well. We never had any small color TVs that had S-Video or even composite input way back in the day. There was no reason to buy a monitor either since something as expensive as that had to be dual purpose in the first place, a reason for a monitor for us just didn't exist as yet. Until used (read cheap) small color TVs came out with composite inputs in addition to standard RF inputs where I could give composite video a try without it costing me more than a cable, it wasn't going to happen. They didn't even put S-Video on them until way late in the non-digital game - we still aren't digital. Can't even get over the air signals, just like we be still on 19.2k dial up without any other recourse than sky blue and the privilege of being nit picked, bit counted and then throttled by them no matter how many hundreds a month paid which isn't going to happen either. Economics yet again, seems to rule the whole world too.

 

Back on topic, RF out on the 130XE was no where near as good as it was on 800XL. While composite very well could have been neck and neck, or as you contend much better, it was as unknown to me as was S-Video. And since S-Video out on the 800XL required a wire jumper be installed inside the case at a minimum, technically for the 800XL it didn't even exist as sold, no contest there. Nolo contendere as Bebe Rebozo put it.

[MrMaddog]

Not gonna lie, I am partial to the 130XE because it was my first Atari 8-bit machine. (Wanted an 800 but they were way too expensive at the time.) But unless you want to use a small Ramdisk or a rare program that uses the extra memory, there's not much advantage of using an XE. Sure it uses the same case style as the ST, but then given the choice I'd use the ST instead.

 

I did get an 800XL from a thrift store, nice portible case and keyboard but the video color was horrible so I couldn't use it for playing games. Also someone gave my an Atari 800 for copying cart images for emulators, couldn't get it to work but I ended downloading ROMS anyway. The 800 is a very nice machine but man that sucker was big and heavy!

 

As for why the XE wasn't as popular as the other models, it had more to do with Atari not being as cool as it was before. The 400/800 came out when Atari became a household name and even the XL line was released just before the crash when the Atari brand was hot. Under the Tramiels, Atari didn't advertised much and when they did it was minimal. Meanwhile everyone else was using Nintendo game systems or even Commodore computers. Not to mention the XEGS was clearly a despriation move, though it was noted for having a detachable keyboard.

 

Nevertheless, the little 130XE will always have a place in my heart. First love and all that...

[toad]

I wanted an Atari 800 "really bad" when they came out. But I couldn't afford it. Later when the 800XL came out, my local sears was liquidating the Atari 400's they had left, and I finally got an Atari computer.

 

However, as I got older and started to be able to earn some money, I got an Atari 800XL later - which was the Atari I ended up owning the longest. I had the 256k upgrade, by following the byte magazine article. I had a self made ring detector that plugged into the joystick port, to make my 1030 modem answer the phone (I had a bbs).

The 256k upgrade did wonders for the responsiveness of the BBS - as it was used as a ram drive for the bbs to save/read messages.

 

I did eventually briefly own a 130XE - even though it had less memory, it was 'compatible' so it let me do a few things - or I intended it to do a few things - don't really remember.

 

Anyway, oddly I have the most nostalgia for the machine I wanted so bad, but could never get - an Atari 800.

 

But when I got back into atari a few years ago, I just purchased an Atari 800XL. Maybe, because I owned that the longest, but my thought process was, I wanted a disk drive - and it was just cheaper to buy 800xl with matching 1050. 130XE with matching XF drive was more expensive. 800 with matching 810 drive - well an unmodified 810 drive is single density.

 

Frankly, I'm happy with my choice, except now I want everything - hard drive, VBXE, upgraded cpu, and 1mb memory - and I also have no plans to solder anything.

So - yeah, I'm waiting for something that doesn't exist yet

 

But given the wonderful progress everyone keeps making - I have hopes to be making more purchases I personally don't like emulation.

 

I like having an Atari sitting on my desk - as a second computer in my house, and i use it. I use it to teach my son typing, and he'll use it to program as he gets older.

We also play games..he's young he doesn't even notice the dated graphics just yet.

Edited July 31, 2013 by toad

[Bryan]

Am I wrong on this? Is there nobody else who agrees? The 130XE has about the BEST *STOCK* composite video output of anything in the line.

 

I agree, the XE's have the best video out of the box. I don't know how Atari managed to screw the XLs up so much. The 800 has nice video but it's a bit more bandwidth limited, leading to softer edges on text.

[WizWor]

My first Atari was a 400. Once I started using the keyboard, I upgraded to an 800xl. As I recall, the motivation to get a 130xe was the extra memory. I used it with some word processor and typesetting programs. Now, I mostly play games and the 130xe has been replaced by an xegs on my desk. I just happen to like the XEGS, I guess. When I am shopping for an A8 price and 'coolness' play a role. I have a 1200xl just because I always wanted one. I have an 800 for times I want to play asteroids with three other people (which is never, btw).

 

As for the original question, who says it isn't?

[Marius]

I agree, the XE's have the best video out of the box. I don't know how Atari managed to screw the XLs up so much. The 800 has nice video but it's a bit more bandwidth limited, leading to softer edges on text.

 

Then you probably never saw the out-of-the-box comp. video quality of the 800XLF (The one with the Freddie). That is the latest revision of the 800XL. That one has an (almost) perfect video output. Better than the XE, where the vertical lines problem is there from time to time.

 

Ontopic:

I have been an atari 8bit man from 1984 - 1990 with 800xl.

Then from 1990 - 1997 with 1040ST

Then from 1994 - now with all kind of atari 8bit computers.

 

The 800XL is still my absolute favorite number #1, but.... the XE looks like a small ST to me, and I have very fond memories of that ST era, although I am no longer really interested in ST anymore.

 

So I like the XE, because it looks like an ST. I love that look, especially when new and not discolored.

[JamesD]

My first Atari was a 130XE for the extra RAM and games it could run.

As soon as the incognito was announced I tracked down an 800.

I always wanted one as a kid but it was too expensive.

I like the way it looks better, the keyboard is better, it has 2 (YES TWO, COUNT THEM) cart slots!

(Best idea ever but the 2nd cart never used because they left it off the 400. Du-Oh!)

The 130XE is grey. Not the most attractive color in the history of Atari 8 bits.

[Bryan]

(Best idea ever but the 2nd cart never used because they left it off the 400. Du-Oh!)

 

Well... The 2nd slot was always intended to be for power-user options so it made sense to leave off the "starter" model. It just wasn't as useful as they hoped.

[JamesD]

Well... The 2nd slot was always intended to be for power-user options so it made sense to leave off the "starter" model. It just wasn't as useful as they hoped.

Being able to upgrade BASIC from a cart was genius.

[oky2000]

Crappy keyboard, awkward cartridge port, less-than-great video output, fully unsocketed motherboard.

 

Just off the top of my head... I'm sure others can add to this list.

 

All the above plus there are some 4 player A8 games too so missing joystick ports cover it with the above

 

Personally I like the styling, it's no worse than the XL range to look at, but the 400 TRON touchpad and 800 is a fantastic retro machine to use for build quality and feel IMO.

[oky2000]

The 130XE is grey. Not the most attractive color in the history of Atari 8 bits.

 

I totally disagree about that, the grey colour of the Mega STE looks far better than the beige TT models so clearly colour alone is not an issue and also my 520STM with SC1224 monitor on my black marble desk looks stunning IMO.

[MEtalGuy66]

All the ST/XE crap was supposed to be grey when it was new (as far as I can remember.. I could be wrong).. Its just that they had no idea how terrible it would look when the plastic got discolored and faded to shit-beige..

 

I alwayse thought the Tramiel-era case styling was very sleek.. Almost "aerospace" in motif. They could have used a better/thicker grade of plastic, in my oppinion.. It's really hard to ship a mega STE, for example, without some part of it cracking..

[JamesD]

I never cared for the ST either.

[JD6502]

One thing that has been touched upon only indirectly is force of numbers. There are just way more XL's than 130's.

 

Off topic- You hear a lot about the cheapness of the XE's, but does that cheap feel translate to less durability? Does anybody have anything more than anecdotal evidence that the failure rate for XE's is higher. And it should be noted that even the youngest XEGS is around 25 yrs old. How many iPads are gonna be around that long?

[MEtalGuy66]

I have seen an ASSLOAD of 130XE "failures" due to the cheapness of build quality.. God knows Ive repaired more than I can remember/count. The worst ones were definitely the earliest ones, and the later ones with the 4bit DRAMs seem to have relatively few "failures".. But yeah, Ive seen alot more XEs "fail" than XLs..

 

As far as long term reliability goes, Id say that the latest versions of the 65/130XE, and the XEGS are all comparable to the XL.. But the early 65/130XEs (first couple of years) are notorious for failures due to shit solder joints and absolute CRAP dram chips that actually go bad with age even in situations where the machine recieved little or no use.

Edited August 7, 2013 by MEtalGuy66

[Bryan]

All the ST/XE crap was supposed to be grey when it was new (as far as I can remember.. I could be wrong).. Its just that they had no idea how terrible it would look when the plastic got discolored and faded to shit-beige..

 

I alwayse thought the Tramiel-era case styling was very sleek.. Almost "aerospace" in motif. They could have used a better/thicker grade of plastic, in my oppinion.. It's really hard to ship a mega STE, for example, without some part of it cracking..

 

Yeah, the plastic could have been sturdier (at the cost of more plastic) but the yellowing is hard to control unless you have strict QC over the process because you can't immediately see the effects of too much flame-retardant in the mix. Heck, the problem bit Nintendo big time and I can guarantee you they took more care than Atari.