Flojomojo Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Bill, do you know for a fact they're "incompatible," or are they just "not supported" because Atgames doesn't want the hassle of trouble calls about 1982 hardware? If I recall the Flashback 2 said similar things about its compatible controllers and hidden paddle games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Bill, do you know for a fact they're "incompatible," or are they just "not supported" because Atgames doesn't want the hassle of trouble calls about 1982 hardware? If I recall the Flashback 2 said similar things about its compatible controllers and hidden paddle games. This is from AtGames themselves. This was independently confirmed by Intellivision Productions. I have no independent confirmation on the ColecoVision side. I'll of course do my own testing when I get review units, but we have to assume that that's accurate. AtGames has never shied away from stating compatibility when there was any. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Semi-good news. I just got an update from AtGames. The intention was all along that they were going to make the Intellivision Flashback cross-compatible with the original, but somewhere along the way, the compatibility broke. They were too late to catch the issue before it went to production, but have every intention of fixing it in a future revision of the system. I'll keep everyone updated for more, but it's clear that this year's version will not have the fix. I'm waiting to hear if the ColecoVision Flashback will be OK or that's also too late. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+intvsteve Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Interesting, and good to hear that AtGames is paying attention to this. Speculating that it could be something as simple as different codes being generated, in which case a simple passive adapter would do the trick. One of the first things I intended to do with those controllers was verify that anyway. So does this mean that we could be seeing a running production change, presuming sales merit it? We'd then have a whole variants scene for this thing! Standard Dollar General Sam's Club Possible running change to controllers? What about foreign markets? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfy62 Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 I am now glad I did not preorder as I have no need to buy one now. The Intellivision one anyway. I still may buy the other three, Coleco, Atari and the Sega as I do not have any collection of games for these and this is a cheap way to explore them. I am out and will not purchase any of them. So glad I held off on my preorder! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybird3rd Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Semi-good news. I just got an update from AtGames. The intention was all along that they were going to make the Intellivision Flashback cross-compatible with the original, but somewhere along the way, the compatibility broke. They were too late to catch the issue before it went to production, but have every intention of fixing it in a future revision of the system. I'll keep everyone updated for more, but it's clear that this year's version will not have the fix. I'm waiting to hear if the ColecoVision Flashback will be OK or that's also too late. Very interesting. I'm glad to know they're on top of this, and that they're already thinking about future revisions. From what they're saying about "cross-compatibility" (keeping the hand controller interface the same to allow original and new controllers to be exchanged), it sounds as if they actually stayed pretty close to the original hand controller design; they would have had to, really, given the nature of the interface. Perhaps the compatibility issue is just some sort of mechanical problem that they didn't have time to identify and fix. I'll be interested to see if the problem turns out to be a problem with the controllers themselves, or with the console, or both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Very interesting. I'm glad to know they're on top of this, and that they're already thinking about future revisions. From what they're saying, it sounds as if they actually stayed pretty close to the original hand controller design (they would have had to, given the nature of the interface). Perhaps the compatibility issue is just some sort of mechanical problem that they didn't have time to identify and fix. I'll be interested to see if the problem turns out to be a problem with the controllers themselves, or with the console, or both. That's a good point. We know that the Intellivision Flashback controllers don't work on an Intellivision II. We don't know if Intellivision II controllers don't work on the Intellivision Flashback (not that there'd be much point, but it would at least prove something). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uzumaki Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 If the issue are to wrong wiring, it may still be possible to hack the first issue controllers to work correctly on older systems. Or build a breakout box that goes between new controller and older consoles that changes the wiring order. I have Sam Club card and I can help you get one if you're near Flint or Saginaw. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daldude Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 As far as the issue of a special key or combination to get back to the menu goes, Isn’t there a menu button on the Flash Back unit it's self? Also I have cuttel cart 3 and to get back to the list of games or Menu you hold the clear button and hit reset. Well. I'll keep my preorder, but of course this is disappointing from a collector's point of view. I never really planned to use the new hand controllers with my original Master Component anyway (I've got enough spares and repair parts on hand), so the lack of controller compatibility isn't a dealbreaker for me, even though a source for new parts would have been nice. I'm just curious to know why AtGames couldn't make them pin-compatible. The original hand controller design was about as simple and cost-effective as you can get: just a mylar flexboard and some plastic buttons, with eight data pins and a ground wire in the connector. Most inexpensive computer keyboards being made today still use mylar flexboard and rubber dome contact switches. Any changes by AtGames would only make the new controllers more complicated and expensive than the originals, so why do it? I'm guessing that, unlike the originals, the new controllers contain active component(s), such as an MCU; if so, they would have required the addition of a power pin that the original hand controller interface didn't provide, hence the incompatibility. That tells me that AtGames took the lazy way out instead of replicating the original design. Perhaps they wanted to add features (such as a special key or key combination to return to the menu) that the original design wouldn't have permitted, or maybe they wanted to eliminate the conflicting Gray codes in the original design to permit input combinations that previously couldn't be used (running and shooting at the same time in Night Stalker, for example). The latter gives me pause, since that would also have required changes to the games. In any case, it's certainly a disappointment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybird3rd Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 As far as the issue of a special key or combination to get back to the menu goes, Isn’t there a menu button on the Flash Back unit it's self? Also I have cuttel cart 3 and to get back to the list of games or Menu you hold the clear button and hit reset. Perhaps you're right; I haven't studied the pictures of the console closely enough to notice. I was just thinking earlier of some possible reasons for changing the controller design/interface, but based on this new information, it sounds as if they aren't doing that after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1980gamer Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 "In other words, it may have been more expensive (and, lets face it, silly) to attempt to re-implement the hardware using technology from the 1970s. The aim was to produce an accurate simulation of the gaming experience, not replicate the physical aspects of the hardware components. -dZ." -dZ, you are the MAN. But I have to disagree....It will cost them a lot more on the back end of this release than any upfront cost to make the controllers compatible. @Bill, It's good to hear they may make a running change..... I have to say I doubt this will happen. 1. I think this hurts initial sales, I do not one of these first incompatible units, do you? Thus we may never get to the fixed version. 2. They would not be able to sell controllers separately/create replacements for warranty. Or this becomes a support nightmare. The only thing that MAY save this is a 9 pin to 9 pin adapter that does the correct wiring changes in-line. Making old controllers work with new systems and new version controllers work with old rev. flashbacks. Include it with the replacement controller, if you have the old board, you plug this between the system and new controller. I will hold out hope, but I think this spells trouble. Yes, I want a flashback. But I would have bought several as a source for controllers. ( if the emulation is good and the video output is good, that would just be a bonus ) At least it seems as if a wiring change will fix these. Sorry, I may just be in sour mood today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yell0w_lantern Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 I still plan on getting one to put in the living room. It will be interesting to see just how electrically incompatible the controllers are. Maybe we'll be lucky and it will be just a couple switched pins or something that could be fixed with an adapter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+nurmix Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 that's a little annoying to be releasing different versions to different retailers. I get why they do it. Just find it a little scummy. Just release one version with 15 sets of overlays and a bonus game to all retailers and call it a day. That's entirely a retailer decision, not an AT Games or Intellivision Productions decision. Dollar General (or whomever) says "sure, we'll carry your Flashback unit... BUT.. We want some sort of exclusive in order to do so" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+intvsteve Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Honestly, if 10,000 of these sell, for example, and I suspect the target may be much higher than that, I bet >90% of the buyers would not know or care if the controllers could be used with an original console. How many of us are there that actually care enough to change our purchasing decisions based on this? While it would be fabulous if a running change is made to correct the incompatibility, I won't hold my breath. Hopefully the controllers are passive, and a simple breakout box will be adequate to make them work with original hardware. If the emulator on the unit is actually running ROMs, it seems that whatever the error was must have been masked by other factors between the actual emulator and however it receives the inputs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybird3rd Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Honestly, if 10,000 of these sell, for example, and I suspect the target may be much higher than that, I bet >90% of the buyers would not know or care if the controllers could be used with an original console. How many of us are there that actually care enough to change our purchasing decisions based on this? While it would be fabulous if a running change is made to correct the incompatibility, I won't hold my breath. Absolutely. The controller issue may seem important to us, but we need to remember that we're a very tiny minority. Even if everyone who intended to buy extras as a source of replacement controllers follows through, that's a drop in the bucket compared to the sales they'll (hopefully!) get from the general public. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+swlovinist Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 I will still get one even with the controller incompatibility issue. I am worried that if the initial sales are a flop, then we will never get a fixed version. I will support it anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DZ-Jay Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 "In other words, it may have been more expensive (and, lets face it, silly) to attempt to re-implement the hardware using technology from the 1970s. The aim was to produce an accurate simulation of the gaming experience, not replicate the physical aspects of the hardware components. -dZ." -dZ, you are the MAN. But I have to disagree....It will cost them a lot more on the back end of this release than any upfront cost to make the controllers compatible. Consider this: one of the biggest problems with the original controllers is that the hardware does not perform matrix scanning, or does not condition the signal or normalizes it in any way. Moreover, it attempts to cram 32 distinct signals over 8 physical wires, using a very clever scheme that saves money, but ultimately makes the entire thing glitchy and unreliable. Obviously, the producers would want to smooth this experience to the general public by providing good quality hand-controllers that work accurately and reliably. They also have an interest in saving money, so this is a delicate balance. Surely, they could have built a hand-controller using the same proprietary clever scheme as before, and enhance it somewhat to include signal debouncing and noise reduction circuitry while still retaining the same output of 32-signals over 8 wires. However, I would imagine it would be cheaper to use off-the-shelf components and send each signal on its own. So instead of having, say, a matrix of three buttons that are encoded into special distinct grey-codes to be shared within the same two wires, it could have three distinct buttons each providing their own signal. Then it's just a matter of having the software encode each signal into the expected grey-code. Likewise, if a keypad exists off-the-shelf that provides 12 distinct signals (which is very likely in hardware devised since the 1980s), why go through the trouble of rewiring it to encode all the buttons within a handful of wires? Now, I don't know what are their reasons or motivations, and I don't even know in which way the controllers are "incompatible" with the original ones; but I wouldn't jump to conclusions and assume that it was out of some ulterior plan to screw collectors. -dZ. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Now, I don't know what are their reasons or motivations, and I don't even know in which way the controllers are "incompatible" with the original ones; but I wouldn't jump to conclusions and assume that it was out of some ulterior plan to screw collectors. -dZ. It absolutely wasn't to screw collectors. The higher ups are as frustrated by this as we are. Unfortunately, the issue was discovered too late to fix it. While I really don't think it will affect sales in a meaningful way, they do have the intention to eventually fix it. I just hope there's not too many negative reactions out there from the more vocal members of our community because these really do need all the sales they can get to ensure we get future products. In the end, even if it doesn't serve what the collector wants (which admittedly would have been awesome), it does do everything else it states it's going to do. If the average consumer sees lots of virtriol towards the product online, they might not touch it, despite the fact that having compatible controllers is a complete non-issue for them. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybird3rd Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Now, I don't know what are their reasons or motivations, and I don't even know in which way the controllers are "incompatible" with the original ones; but I wouldn't jump to conclusions and assume that it was out of some ulterior plan to screw collectors. In light of what we've learned, I don't think it was deliberate, either; that wasn't my intention when I said earlier that backward compatibility was "broken" (I've since clarified my post). I also agree that we need to keep this issue in proper perspective; as I said earlier, controller compatibility is something that only a subset of the collector community—which itself is a very small subset of the population—will care about. If the Intellivision Flashback delivers an authentic Intellivision experience, which it reportedly does, then we need to do what we can to ensure that this first run is a success. It will introduce the Intellivision to new players, and it will help to make future Intellivision products possible ... including backward-compatible controllers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfy62 Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Either way, with compatible controllers or not this is a great release and product for old Intellivision players who have forgotten the system. It is probably not for collectors who already have all the games, or emulations such as Intellivision lives! or rocks!. And yes, it may catch some new interest from those that have never even heard of an Intellivision. I applaud the effort, and the system and controllers are very well designed. Great job AT games! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 OK, some further updates. There will only be the two special editions at the two aforementioned retailers. So there will only be three total variations if you include the standard edition. AtGames was considering including the full set of overlays, but thought it would be too messy for the consumer to deal with 120 overlays (60x2) or more. They may possibly sell a complete set separately once their ecommerce site is up and running (or include a larger set in future iterations of the product), though that's only a thought at the moment. As we've discussed here, there are maybe in the upper hundreds to low thousands of the hardcore in our community who would spring for something like that, so it will probably come down to if the economics of it work out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uzumaki Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 So long as they make full overlay set available somewhere, and clearly marked as not original (ie remove Mattel copyright 19xx notice and replace with AtGames 2014) so shady seller can't try to pass off 120 overlay as "vintage original set" and rip off collectors who wants genuine original and not reproductions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybird3rd Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 AtGames was considering including the full set of overlays, but thought it would be too messy for the consumer to deal with 120 overlays (60x2) or more. They may possibly sell a complete set separately once their ecommerce site is up and running (or include a larger set in future iterations of the product), though that's only a thought at the moment. As we've discussed here, there are maybe in the upper hundreds to low thousands of the hardcore in our community who would spring for something like that, so it will probably come down to if the economics of it work out. Probably a wise decision. I'd definitely spring for a complete set, if they become available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jointfilms.com Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 OK, some further updates. There will only be the two special editions at the two aforementioned retailers. So there will only be three total variations if you include the standard edition. AtGames was considering including the full set of overlays, but thought it would be too messy for the consumer to deal with 120 overlays (60x2) or more. They may possibly sell a complete set separately once their ecommerce site is up and running (or include a larger set in future iterations of the product), though that's only a thought at the moment. As we've discussed here, there are maybe in the upper hundreds to low thousands of the hardcore in our community who would spring for something like that, so it will probably come down to if the economics of it work out. See I wouldn't mind that option. If I buy the system and then decide I do want the full overlay set if I could go on ATGames site and buy it separately I would be cool with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atarifan88 Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Can anyone confirm or speculate if Commando will be included on the Intellivision Flashback? I wasn't sure if there are licensing issues for the game which is why I am asking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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