When Homebrewers Produce Crap

[+thegoldenband]

I've seen plenty of highly technical crap made by highly technical people. It's myopic to assume tools specifically made to be accessible are the definitive factor in crap.

Definitely not the definitive factor, no, though I can see how my phrasing implied that (and my bad on that).

 

That said, tools that lower the bar are double-edged, and always have been. That doesn't mean they're bad -- as I said earlier, I'm a user of tools like GarageBand and Batari Basic -- but any tools that put distance between the user and the grit and dirt of a medium will inherently lend themselves to the production of a certain kind of unthoughtful crap. They make it easy to avoid thinking critically about certain aspects of one's own work, and tend to encourage people to follow the path of least resistance in certain situations. That's part of their virtue -- they make common tasks easy, they facilitate high-level thinking without getting bogged down in technical problems -- but also part of their weakness.

 

You mention GameMaker; that too is profoundly double-edged, and there's a lot written about already about how GameMaker has changed the landscape in positive and negative ways. But "double-edged" isn't the same as "bad"!

 

Like I said, anything that lowers the bar for any medium will always be that way, whether it's print, film, video games, music, or whatever. My only point is that we should be honest about that double-edged-ness, and also acknowledge that the people who did it "the hard way" learned things that often can't readily be learned in the course of using these bar-lowering tools. Again, that's their whole point: to keep people from reinventing the wheel, to make access easy. But there's also a hell of a lot of value in knowing how to make a good wheel, too, and in paying your dues on a technical level.

[jaybird3rd]

I agree with you, theloon, but jay's point was that better tools lower the barriers to entry. This is by design, of course, but it is a double-edge sword: more people can contribute to the community, and more bad apples can abuse it.

 

That said, you have to take the good with the bad. There's no point in bitching about a larger community attracting negative elements--for the alternative is to remain obscure or undiscovered, where only your close friends and colleagues play your games.

 

To the original point, feedback and reputation are most important. There will always be an element of "buyer beware," but good programmers providing quality games will always rise above the chaff, as long as they request and welcome feedback.

Yes. I would never claim that Batari Basic necessarily "enables crap homebrew", which is why I didn't exactly say that in my earlier post. I also agree that it's possible to create bad games regardless of the tools used; for evidence of that, one need look no further than the games from the likes of Mythicon and Apollo, which were presumably written entirely in assembly.

 

Tools like Batari Basic can potentially serve as the catalysts which allow gifted game designers to finally realize their ambitions. But when one looks beyond the potentialities and considers how these tools are actually used in the real world, it would be hard to deny that, more often than not, they simply serve to abstract away the difficulties which might otherwise prevent ill-formed or poorly-conceived games from being brought into existence.

 

I hate to dig them up again, but N.E.R.D.S. and The Last Ninja are especially instructive examples in this regard. Both games were produced using Batari Basic, and in fact, the programmer of N.E.R.D.S. was here on AtariAge to ask questions about it (see here and here):

 

I have been contracted to make a game for the Atari 2600 by Atari2600.com. After reviewing all the material that is on-line I am overwhelmed with the sheer amount of data and have no idea where to start.

This is a perfect example of what thegoldenband was talking about when he mentioned that simplified design tools tend to encourage designers to think only in terms of what the tools can do, because they don't know how to do anything else. As evidenced by the questions he was asking, this programmer's approach was to take canned Batari Basic sample code and adapt it into a game. It seems clear that, if assembly language were the only option for 2600 development, this programmer's efforts would never have got off the ground and N.E.R.D.S. would never have existed, and I don't think that would have been a bad thing.

 

EDIT: I didn't see thegoldenband's most recent post until after I posted mine, but I wholeheartedly agree with it as well. Tools like Batari Basic and GameMaker have their positive uses, but we also shouldn't ignore the negatives.

[jaybird3rd]

What happens if "feedback is being used to kill an awesome game" by an excellent homebrew developer who is basically making stuff up?

 

[...]

 

I think Atari fans can judge for themselves if the techniques you've described to kill a bad game are being misapplied

That's certainly a danger. Whenever you go out of your way to create open channels of communication, there's always the possibility that someone might abuse them and start spreading slander. I'm sorry to hear that this seems to have happened in your case. This is why nobody who is researching a game should read any one individual's feedback as the absolute truth or as the whole story; instead, read everyone's arguments and counterarguments, and make the best decision possible on that basis. In your case, if I had encountered those videos and subsequently read your explanation, I would have been completely satisfied that the maker of the videos was spreading disinformation. As others have said, the advantages of soliciting open feedback far outweigh the potential dangers: I think most readers can tell when a commenter is just out to get someone.

[Mr SQL]

That's certainly a danger. Whenever you go out of your way to create open channels of communication, there's always the possibility that someone might abuse them and start spreading slander. I'm sorry to hear that this seems to have happened in your case. This is why nobody who is researching a game should read any one individual's feedback as the absolute truth or the whole story; instead, read everyone's arguments and counterarguments, and make the best decision possible on that basis. In your case, if I had encountered those videos and subsequently read your explanation, I would have been completely satisfied that the maker of the videos was spreading misinformation. As others have said, the advantages of soliciting open feedback far outweigh the potential dangers: I think most readers can tell when a commenter is just out to get someone.

 

Excellent perspective jaybird3rd. However, I think when the commenter happens to be an excellent developer who makes great games, gamers and collectors who are not technically inclined may be unduly swayed by the developers technical clout.

 

There is a lively discussion going on here in response to this that I would invite anyone to join in on, on the KC thread, or here (better here, since this is the critical homebrew thread):

 

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/222606-kc-munchkin-monster-maze-atari-2600/page-3?do=findComment&comment=2981453

 

I think all perspectives are fair; my own as well!

[jaybird3rd]

Excellent perspective jaybird3rd. However, I think when the commenter happens to be an excellent developer who makes great games, gamers and collectors who are not technically inclined may be unduly swayed by the developers technical clout.

Indeed. We all have to be responsible in offering our feedback and criticism, and if we're aware that our opinion may carry extra weight, we should be extra careful to be as fair and as constructive as possible.

 

Personally, I always try to be as detailed as possible whenever I discuss games in any capacity, whether it's the games' good points, bad points, or possible improvements; see here for my "review" of Imagic's "Beauty and the Beast" for the Intellivision as an example. That's the kind of detailed feedback that I as a programmer would love to get from a player about one of my games.

[Mr SQL]

Indeed. We all have to be responsible in offering our feedback and criticism, and if we're aware that our opinion may carry extra weight, we should be extra careful to be as fair and as constructive as possible.

 

Personally, I always try to be as detailed as possible whenever I discuss games of any kind, whether it's the games' good points, bad points, or possible improvements; see here for my "review" of Imagic's "Beauty and the Beast" for the Intellivision as an example. That's the kind of detailed feedback that I as a programmer would love to get from a player about one of my games.

 

jaybird3rd,

read your review of Beauty and the Beat and watched the Nice and Games video to see the gameplay; the game looks fun, popeye and Donkey Kong remix

Agree the sound seems sparse for the Intellivision, surprising only one voice was used.

[jaybird3rd]

jaybird3rd,

read your review of Beauty and the Beast and watched the Nice and Games video to see the gameplay; the game looks fun, popeye and Donkey Kong remix

Agree the sound seems sparse for the Intellivision, surprising only one voice was used.

Well, I'm flattered that you actually read it! B&TB is a fun game, but a bit overrated in my opinion, and that's probably what I was reacting to. Whenever I play a game and notice what I perceive to be nagging flaws, I always try to figure out where the problems are and how I would fix them, even if the fixes are just tiny little tweaks. As I say, these are the kinds of comments from other players that I would love to get about a homebrew game of my own: enough detailed feedback of that kind can be instrumental in making a game just as good as it can possibly be.

[potatohead]

I like all the home brew efforts.

 

All of us have different tastes, and it's often fun to make and share games like many of us did as kids. Rock on! Everybody is welcome in my book.

[+DZ-Jay]

Well, I'm flattered that you actually read it! B&TB is a fun game, but a bit overrated in my opinion, and that's probably what I was reacting to. Whenever I play a game and notice what I perceive to be nagging flaws, I always try to figure out where the problems are and how I would fix them, even if the fixes are just tiny little tweaks. As I say, these are the kinds of comments from other players that I would love to get about a homebrew game of my own: enough detailed feedback of that kind can be instrumental in making a game just as good as it can possibly be.

I would gladly review your games. I would also appreciate if you would review mine.

 

dZ.

[+DZ-Jay]

Sometimes you offer criticism and this happens. It appears that our community does not want open and constructive dialog, just sycophants patting you on the back. Any comment that is not overwhelmingly positive is treated as an attack, and thus attacked back.

 

*sigh*

[+Random Terrain]

Sometimes you offer criticism and this happens. It appears that our community does not want open and constructive dialog, just sycophants patting you on the back. Any comment that is not overwhelmingly positive is treated as an attack, and thus attacked back.

 

*sigh*

Wow! Those posts kind of make you want to do a double take and make a Scooby-Doo noise.

 

youtube.com/watch?v=tpsEdM74maA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpsEdM74maA

 

The product is completed. "Constructive" criticism would best be given during the development process..not at the end. Since I never ask for constructive criticism during the development phase of all my products, it would make sense that I do not want it. I never ask for a "great job" critique either. The only critique I want is for someone to buy the game or not.

 

My take is, if the comment is not positive or you do not like something, just stay quiet and do not purchase the product. I use this forum only to inform interested parties as to what we are doing.

dZ,

No one says you have to be a puppet, but some of your criticisms are ridiculous and obviously too late. In future, You really could benefit from some humility and not being such a hypocrite who doesn't keep his word. You are not the authority on all things Intellivision because you made 1 good game. In the meantime, I'll borrow a phrase from the movie "Scarface" - "Why don't you stick your head up your a** & see if it fits":-):-)

By the way, great artwork, great artwork, great artwork, great artwork, great artwork:-)

So basically, if you have an opinion that someone doesn't like, stay quiet and stick your head up your ass? The guy only uses the forum to push stuff he is selling and nothing more? Sounds like those wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am people we've heard about who only show up to sell crap in the marketplace forum. They don't want to stay and play around or discuss anything either. You'd think he'd at least pretend that AA members are more than just dollar signs. You'd expect something more like "It's too late to change anything now. Thank you for your input." That's better than some form of "I don't care what you think. Eat sh*t and die."

[intvdave]

So basically, if you have an opinion that someone doesn't like, stay quiet and stick your head up your ass? The guy only uses the forum to push stuff he is selling and nothing more? Sounds like those wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am people we've heard about who only show up to sell crap in the marketplace forum. They don't want to stay and play around or discuss anything either. You'd think he'd at least pretend that AA members are more than just dollar signs. You'd expect something more like "It's too late to change anything now. Thank you for your input." That's better than some form of "I don't care what you think. Eat sh*t and die."

 

You must not be active in the Intellivision homebrew scene or you would know better. Why are you in this Intellivision forum?

[+Gemintronic]

 

You must not be active in the Intellivision homebrew scene or you would know better. Why are you in this Intellivision forum?

 

I don't understand your comment. Are you agreeing that there is some weird, self defeating censorship going on in there?

[+Random Terrain]

You must not be active in the Intellivision homebrew scene or you would know better. Why are you in this Intellivision forum?

 

This is the Classic Gaming General forum. If you are asking why I visited the Intellivision forum, I followed the link that DZ-Jay posted. All I know is what you said in your post. The gist I got from it was "I'm just here to sell stuff. I have no interest in discussing anything with any of you. I am perfect and don't need any feedback from you losers unless the feedback involves your lips on my ass (with or without tongue). Now buy my sh*t or shut the f*ck up and get the f*ck out."

[intvdave]

Did you ever come across a thread on a forum here or there where a homebrewer posts a video of a game they're working on and you think it looks like utter crap yet there's reply after reply from people saying "look's great" "great job keep up the good work!"?

 

Is it best just to keep our mouth shut or should we be honest? It would depend on that particular homebrewer, right? I'm thinking some would get offended while others might welcome the criticism if it's constructive. I'm thinking it's best to keep quiet if I don't think a game looks good but wanted to know if anyone else fights this temptation.

 

Am I alone in thinking some of these games are bad?

 

I won't mention by name, but there's a homebrewer that's been turning out games at a rapid clip and every single one of them looks bad. No doubt this person has programming skills above and beyond what I have but I just don't think they get what makes a game fun.

 

 

As a homebrewer, everything I make is for my pleasure. If I am happy with it, then I think others will also be happy. Will everyone be happy with it? Definitely NOT! Do I like "constructive" criticism? Yes, but I ask for it. "Constructive" criticism works when a product is being created..not after.

 

I do not release everything I have for a reason. I understand collectors will buy anything and everything and I do not want to take advantage of them. Do some people buy games that they are not happy with? Probably but then I am willing to take them back.

 

If you have the need to say you do not like something after it is 100% done, go ahead. Just do not call it constructive.

[intvdave]

 

This is the Classic Gaming General forum. If you are asking why I visited the Intellivision forum, I followed the link that DZ-Jay posted. All I know is what you said in your post. The gist I got from it was "I'm just here to sell stuff. I have no interest in discussing anything with any of you. I am perfect and don't need any feedback from you losers unless the feedback involves your lips on my ass (with or without tongue). Now buy my sh*t or shut the f*ck up and get the f*ck out."

 

Yes, that is the problem with people in these forum, they take the gist of things and think they know what is going on. There is usually more to the story but then, this is why there is so much drama out here. And people love the drama.

[+DZ-Jay]

You must not be active in the Intellivision homebrew scene or you would know better. Why are you in this Intellivision forum?

David,

 

A few days ago, we were discussing in this thread how the home-brew scene could use some perspective by being more open to constructive dialog; and that sincere feedback, good or bad, is always a good thing.

 

I brought that Intellivision thread as an example of the sort of dysfunctional behaviour that we should try to overcome (myself included), where only positive feedback is tolerated and dissenting voices are treated with hostility.

 

I meant no disrespect to you or your game. I'm sure that you have seen, as a fellow member of that community, that our forum is in dire need of a kick in the pants when it comes to open dialog and constructive behaviour.

 

Cheers!

dZ.

[+DZ-Jay]

Yes, that is the problem with people in these forum, they take the gist of things and think they know what is going on. There is usually more to the story but then, this is why there is so much drama out here. And people love the drama.

To this and to your other comment regarding it not being "constructive" because it was too late, I note that you didn't make this clear. In fact, your first response was to engage me by comparing your layout to the original Mattel boxes, and then dismiss my comment as categorically wrong, not "late."

 

Doe the original Mattel Intellivoice boxes overlap?

 

Sorry you are not happy with it. I am. The layout is perfect.

Then later you shutdown completely by stating that criticism, constructive or not, was not welcome.

 

Again, I did not mean to be disrespectful, but we should be more open than this.

 

dZ.

[intvdave]

Then later you shutdown completely by stating that criticism, constructive or not, was not welcome.

 

Again, I did not mean to be disrespectful, but we should be more open than this.

 

dZ.

 

 

 

With you producing a game, I expected you to understand the process of the production. What I obviously showed was not a draft image, it was the final image. I did not think I needed to explain to you that the image was not going to be changed. I know better now.

 

Next time, please do not hide behind the work "constructive". Just say the truth that you do not like it. It will not be the first time I hear it. Of all people, you should know how I have been attacked.

 

Do you want me critiquing your product now that it has been completed?

[+Random Terrain]

Do you want me critiquing your product now that it has been completed?

Isn't that what reviewers do anyway? If they don't like certain things about a finished game or box art or manual, and it's helpful information, it can be used to make the next project even better.

[+DZ-Jay]

 

With you producing a game, I expected you to understand the process of the production. What I obviously showed was not a draft image, it was the final image. I did not think I needed to explain to you that the image was not going to be changed. I know better now.

 

Next time, please do not hide behind the work "constructive". Just say the truth that you do not like it. It will not be the first time I hear it. Of all people, you should know how I have been attacked.

 

Do you want me critiquing your product now that it has been completed?

David,

 

This is the sort of thing I am bringing to light. My critique most definitely did NOT mean that I did not like it. Why so reactionary and hostile?

 

Why is everything so black and white? You either love it or hate it; think it's the best thing ever or think it's shit; must agree with everything or stay quiet; buy it and stroke your ego or shut the f*uck up.

 

I don't think this is the best way to communicate effectively as a community.

 

As a matter if fact, I thought the artwork was very good (and mentioned it), but the layout could use some work. Granted, if its already produced and ready to publish, then this feedback has no consequence.

 

There's got to be a better way for us to communicate.

 

dZ.

[+DZ-Jay]

Do you want me critiquing your product now that it has been completed?

If you have something constructive to say that will lead to a better product next time, by all means yes.

 

If you want to say how shit it is for the mere purpose of insulting and hurting me, without any constructive suggestions for improvement, then why bother?

 

That's sort of the point.

 

I intended the first one when I posted about your game artwork. I hope you see the difference.

[RevEng]

A post-mortem comment can definitely be of value to a developer. I received constructive feedback by supercat on the addressing mode I used for the 21 Blue bitmap kernel, and it was long after the game was in the metaphorical box. His comments didn't change 21 Blue, but I appreciated them all the same because it made me think more critically regarding data and addressing choices in later projects.

 

I recognize that other homebrewers may be happy where they're at with their code and art skills, and just want to make games. Our community has room for this spirit too, but project_done=no_more_comments shouldn't be assumed as a default position. It doesn't cost anything to say "I disagree and I'm happy with the way it turned out.", or just head off comments by explicitly announcing the project is done and you'd like no more input.

[Troy_Whelan]

Yeah, you would think as a community we would be always striving to improve for the benefit of all but sadly that is not a universal concept. I enjoy the various homebrew games and have respect for all involved as I have been a homebrew beta-tester for around 10 years and am a Software Engineer by trade. Comments, suggestions, and even observations are sometimes met with hostility and snarky responses that are really uncalled for. If someone offers a comment or suggestion it is puzzling to me as to why the other person does not ask "why do you think that?" or "perhaps you did not know this" and then have a valid and educational conversation to reach consensus. That would be much easier than arguing in the forum. However I too have learned that comments are not always welcome, even if to be a consideration in the future. That does not mean I will always keep quiet, but I eventually stop trying in certain situations as sometimes the other person simply does not want to hear it.

[boxpressed]

Criticizing = Risking fewer homebrew games

 

Fewer homebrew games = End of the world