+Gemintronic Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 There's always a limit. There's always a left out game. By not having a cart or SD slot they greatly diminish their target audience. Absolutely, but even with those products it's important to understand the compromises that need to be made and how sometimes intermediary steps are necessary. To be clear, in the editorial I'm not saying that we are too entitled/critical/etc., in general (the collective we), I'm saying that SOME in the community are, and they're often the most vocal and what causes a sort of echo chamber for problems that aren't necessarily as pressing as they're made out to be (which is true of most critical things--we more readily post about negative experiences than positive ones and it can make relatively small problems/issues seem like a major crisis). Certain segments of our community are too quick to bash and bad mouth new products, which is not conducive to getting more of the products that we actually want. The basic point was nothing is going to be perfect and that there are more constructive ways of expressing our personal preferences, particularly when certain products are most of the way there. I'd rather see a product with some compromises get released (like the RetroN 5) than have something otherwise really damned cool never make it to market because it's missing that last 5 - 10% that would make it perfect for 98% of the people in our community (keeping in mind that even if a perfect product were made, some people would still find something to complain about). On a forum like AtariAge expressing our opinions is the proper way to sort out how the community feels about a product. It's not a battle of press releases 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy_Whelan Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Well, there is the opinion that we are too entitled. I say our energy may be misdirected. We need to seek, support and promote projects that do reflect our needs. Usually that comes from within the community. Just look at jaybird3rd and his Aquarius RAM expansion and multi-carts. You can get what you want. It's not going to come from Dollar General or Walmart, though. I am a bit surprised at the "Too Entitled" piece. Just because we as consumers have differing opinions and want a better product does not make us entitled, rather it makes us informed. And as theloon says above "we need to seek, support and promote projects that do reflect our needs" - I agree with that. However if the product does not reflect our needs and we will be speaking with our dollars, it seems reasonable for gamers to let it be known that we will not be buying a product and why. That gives the manufacturer insight as to customer views, even if it is an isolated portion of the target audience. WIthout discussions and comments like in this thread there would be little reason for a product to adapt/change/improve. Many who are going to buy will buy regardless of comments in this thread. Some who say they will not buy may eventually buy anyway. I see no reason to say retro gamers feel entitled simply because they desire a better product. Everyone has different criteria which would cause them to buy, unfortunately for some of us that criteria is no longer being met. That should not reflect poorly on the customer simply because the customer's needs are not being met. Open discussion like this is what drove change and improved many products over the years including DOS, many other operating systems and software, various game sequels, and even MAME. Without open discussion the only improvements would be driven by the manufacturer on input from a paid focus group. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 There's always a limit. There's always a left out game. By not having a cart or SD slot they greatly diminish their target audience. On a forum like AtariAge expressing our opinions is the proper way to sort out how the community feels about a product. It's not a battle of press releases The average consumer doesn't care about a cart or SD card slot. For potentially a few hundred to a few thousand (most optimistically) extra sales, the extra costs involved (testing, materials, support, etc.) aren't necessarily worth it, particularly if the retail price increases. Also, to be fair, inclusion of an SD card slot is up to the companies granting a license. Other Flashback products would have had it by now, but the only one who has allowed it has been Sega. And yes, it's good to express our opinion. Lots of people agreed with my editorial. Some didn't. Some missed the point completely or took it personally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Gemintronic Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 The average consumer doesn't care about a cart or SD card slot. For potentially a few hundred to a few thousand (most optimistically) extra sales, the extra costs involved (testing, materials, support, etc.) aren't necessarily worth it, particularly if the retail price increases. Also, to be fair, inclusion of an SD card slot is up to the companies granting a license. Other Flashback products would have had it by now, but the only one who has allowed it has been Sega. And yes, it's good to express our opinion. Lots of people agreed with my editorial. Some didn't. Some missed the point completely or took it personally. ..and some think negative opinions should be mitigated in order to promote a product. *shrugs* We're all here to consider each others viewpoint. I respect yours but I'm not an average consumer - thus some dissonance 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 ..and some think negative opinions should be mitigated in order to promote a product. *shrugs* We're all here to consider each others viewpoint. I respect yours but I'm not an average consumer - thus some dissonance Yes, I think we should sometimes be more considerate of negative opinions and what they might affect. There's a difference between "I'm not happy with the lack of x," and "this product is stupid garbage because it lacks x." The Internet never forgets, and if someone were to look for info on a product they might get the wrong idea. Naturally, no one really has that responsibility to someone else, but sometimes we should consider the relative health of the future of our interests. Again, it's pretty simple, criticism and even negativity are all fair, there's just a point where it goes too far and becomes unnecessarily personal, particularly when one loses sight of the big picture or why some things are the way they are. In this case, we may not like some of the things AtGames has done, but since we have some insight into the inner workings, we can at least have a little more perspective than we normally would, when it would just be speculation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Gemintronic Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 I can't agree that I can put my needs as a consumer aside because I am not the target demographic. I can't justify buying something that lacks features I'd pay for because licensing was hard. One shouldn't be afraid to discuss and seek better alternatives. *shrugs* 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Again, you're missing the point. You shouldn't put anything aside and you seem to be taking this way too personally. Do you regularly go on an Internet rant about products you dislike for purely personal reasons? While not liking the way the product turned out, do you understand why they are the way they are but still expect it to change? Etc. I really don't have the energy to explain myself any better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Gemintronic Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Again, you're missing the point. You shouldn't put anything aside and you seem to be taking this way too personally. Do you regularly go on an Internet rant about products you dislike for purely personal reasons? While not liking the way the product turned out, do you understand why they are the way they are but still expect it to change? Etc. I really don't have the energy to explain myself any better. Nor should you. I guess my point is negativity does not cause harm to the product. It can lead to better purchases and better products. I think we should stop here if you feel it has gotten personal. Thanks for the insight so far 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Nor should you. I guess my point is negativity does not cause harm to the product. It can lead to better purchases and better products. I think we should stop here if you feel it has gotten personal. Thanks for the insight so far *sigh* So you think that there's no line that can be crossed? Somehow I don't think you're saying that. I'm talking about a line between "good" criticism and "bad" criticism. Any criticism, "good" or "bad," has a long shelf life on the Web. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixelboy Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 The average consumer doesn't care about a cart or SD card slot. For potentially a few hundred to a few thousand (most optimistically) extra sales, the extra costs involved (testing, materials, support, etc.) aren't necessarily worth it, particularly if the retail price increases. Oh, I wouldn't dismiss it so quickly. There is such a thing as word of mouth, especially in the internet age. A few well-placed Twitter and Facebook reports, coupled with mentions on certain gaming news sites, and the information that the CVFB2 can play (almost) all 32K CV games by simply inserting an SD card into the console would easily go viral, especially when you include such keywords as Donkey Kong into the news. Then you'd have a bunch of people buying an SD card, putting ROMs on it, unscrewing their CVFB2 and sticking their SD card into it with a big smile on their face. It's an upgrade that everyone with a screwdriver could do easily, no soldering required. Of course, when you look at it from a financial standpoint, does AtGames really need to spend extra money on an SD card reader component and the extra software required to access a FAT-formatted SD card, build an on-screen game selection menu and read the selected ROM? Perhaps not, but then let me ask you this: Can we really assume that the ColecoVision Flashback 3 will ever see the light of day? There are a handful of games that are not going to make it on the FB1, like Lady Bug, Mouse Trap and BurgerTime(?), but this only means that those games will be good candidates for inclusion on the CVFB2. However, beyond that I don't see where AtGames can go with the CVFB3, because licensing is a bigger issue on the ColecoVision than on the Atari or Intellivision Flashback units. We'll never see Smurf, James Bond 007, and many others mostly because licensing is prohibitively expensive (or downright impossible). So if we go with the idea that AtGames will stop with the CVFB2, wouldn't it make sense to include the SD card reader and give it a viral spin? Also, to be fair, inclusion of an SD card slot is up to the companies granting a license. Other Flashback products would have had it by now, but the only one who has allowed it has been Sega. I don't see why Coleco Holdings LLC would have a problem with the inclusion of a SD card slot... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retroillucid Posted July 7, 2014 Author Share Posted July 7, 2014 I think most people's really happy and gratefull toward ATgames making the very first CV Flashback Everyone is agree to say the product looks great as well The problem is not having the controllers compatible with the original system and some classic cult games are missing They don't say the product is bad or is shit People (fans) would have prefer to get games like Mouse Trap instead of let's say, homebrews All the CV classic arcade games should have been there, well... Mostly , asides DK and DKjr of course Here's what I think should have been included: (40 games) - 2010 Graphic Adventure - Antarctic Adventure - Buck Rogers - Bump n Jump - Burgertime - Carnival - Centipede - Cosmic Avenger - Congo Bongo - Defender - Destructor - Frenzy - Galaxian - Gorf - Gyruss - Jungle Hunt - Blackjack / Poker - Lady Bug - Looping - Mr Do! - Mouse Trap - Omega Race - Popeye - Pepper II - Q* Bert - Rock n Rope - Tapper - Turbo - Up n Down - Slither - Space Fury - Space Panic - Spy Hunter - Star Trek - Star Wars - Subroc - Time Pilot - Venture - Victory - Zaxxon Like I said earlier. Kudos to ATgames for making a CV flashback I applause their efforts 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Gemintronic Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 I wonder how many of those could simply use the Treasure of Tarmin treatment on the Inty flashback. Re-title them and modify some in-game graphics. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retroillucid Posted July 7, 2014 Author Share Posted July 7, 2014 (edited) I wonder how many of those could simply use the Treasure of Tarmin treatment on the Inty flashback. Re-title them and modify some in-game graphics.Yeah! And.... Like Smurf Rescue for INtv as well Remove Ken Huston name from the bios screen of the game would be easy as hell Damn, I can even do this myself! Edited July 7, 2014 by retroillucid 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 I don't see why Coleco Holdings LLC would have a problem with the inclusion of a SD card slot... They probably wouldn't ... but if AtGames gets sued by Nintendo or another one of the rights holders in the Colecovision library because this device is depriving them of licensing income, who would pay? Coleco? AtGames? The end user? AtariAge? There's an episode of the Intellivisionaries podcast where Keith Robinson explains the whole liability situation pretty plainly, as to why some titles are on some collections but not others, but it really comes down to the question of risk: are you so certain you're in the right that you'll expose yourself to litigation, just to give some nerds old ROMs on your reproduction game console? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixelboy Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 They probably wouldn't ... but if AtGames gets sued by Nintendo or another one of the rights holders in the Colecovision library because this device is depriving them of licensing income, who would pay? Coleco? AtGames? The end user? AtariAge? There's an episode of the Intellivisionaries podcast where Keith Robinson explains the whole liability situation pretty plainly, as to why some titles are on some collections but not others, but it really comes down to the question of risk: are you so certain you're in the right that you'll expose yourself to litigation, just to give some nerds old ROMs on your reproduction game console? Portable MP3 players were available for purchase for years even though it blatantly encouraged music piracy. But still, you make a valid point. If I was the one making decisions at AtGames, I'm not sure I would go for the SD card reader idea... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Portable MP3 players were available for purchase for years even though it blatantly encouraged music piracy. But still, you make a valid point. If I was the one making decisions at AtGames, I'm not sure I would go for the SD card reader idea... I can tell you from my discussions with them that they generally like the idea of SD card slots, but the final decision is not up to them. What boggles my mind is that a relatively big company like Sega is cool with the idea, while smaller licensing-centric companies are seemingly not as comfortable. I'm personally holding out hope that both the ColecoVision and Intelliviison Flashbacks do well and then the next iterations include an SD card slot. By then I would think the emulation engines would be tweaked to the point where they should be able to play the vast majority of games without extra tweaking/testing. If not, I do agree it will be tough to add a great deal more games to the ColecoVision Flashback. At least with the Intellivision Flashback there's potentially third party stuff and homebrews to add. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixelboy Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 I can tell you from my discussions with them that they generally like the idea of SD card slots, but the final decision is not up to them. It's not? You mean it actually is up to Coleco Holdings LLC to make the call? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Gemintronic Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 This isn't the answer but it looks like the Coleco stuff is still owned by these guys: http://riverwestbrands.com/brand_properties.php Is this outdated info? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixelboy Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 This isn't the answer but it looks like the Coleco stuff is still owned by these guys: http://riverwestbrands.com/brand_properties.php Is this outdated info? If I remember correctly, River West Brands set up Coleco Holdings LLC as a sub-company devoted to all things Coleco. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 It's not? You mean it actually is up to Coleco Holdings LLC to make the call? I don't know the exact details, obviously, and could be wrong, but it's something along the lines of the licensing company needing to give its approval. It was my understanding that that's why we didn't get an SD card slot on the Atari Flashback 5. I suppose on a practical level I can see that hesitation, because then all the valuable IPs that that company holds could be played without issue and without another dime going to the holder. That kind of thing clearly doesn't bother a Sega, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColecoDan Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 I would think a lot of people who are buying these are going to be like, "oh yeah I remember a colecovision or intellivision used to exist". 40 bucks sure lets get it and play with the kids. Game systems are a fortune and each game is over 40. These are going to be what I call stocking stuffers or secret santa gifts. They are going to have no idea what is missing, nor care. Yes the people that know more are going to be asking why didn't they add these but then they are probably going to buy it too because it is so cheap. People are buying 400 phones for their kids these days they are not going to give a second thought about spending 40 bucks for a cool little thing that has 60 games built in. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cimerians Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 I think Pixelboy said it best what we want we have to do it ourselves..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxpressed Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 If we're going to complain about companies not listening to consumers, we're going to have to get in line behind the folks that were sold this in 1974: 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+nanochess Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 My idea is that a Colecovision Flashback for $40 dollars with 60 games is pretty reasonable. Given that common loose carts are priced $1-$3 each it's more than reasonable and it will include some overlays. I don't mind if it doesn't have SD port, because I wasn't thinking in throwing to bin my Colecovision or carts Besides it's pretty cute to be shown proudly along my games/consoles collection. Even if it's not the ultimate-plus-ultra-super-enhanced Colecovision we would want, I think we should be pretty grateful that AtGames brought back from the oblivion the Colecovision for the general public 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixelboy Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 If we're going to complain about companies not listening to consumers, we're going to have to get in line behind the folks that were sold this in 1974: I look at that picture and I keep expecting the car to transform into a robot. Yeah, I saw Transformers 4 last week... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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