JAGUAR, 3DO, AND THE CDI

[JagCD]

Of the 7 Billions people alive 31.5% is Christian so obviously a majority of the human race is Christian right?

 

Had he said that the NeoGeo library is swayed towards fighters at 1 to 3 ratio nobody would have complained. Even a statement that the NeoGeo library counts more fighters than other libraries in proportion to other genres it's easily defensible, anything else is abuse of language at best and asinine at worst.

 

 

 

If you are hoping I will change my stance (see photo below). What you said above is more or less simply paraphrasing roughly what I said.

The mistake stems from people incorrectly believing that there is 50.1% threshold as a requirement for the term majority,

which is not the case. It merely had to be the largest genre to represent a majority of the games released.

 

 

And yes, if Christians are the largest group of religious people in the world -- based on the definition

of the word Majority, they can indeed be called a majority.

 

A majority and a voting majority are 2 different contexts to use that particular noun.

 

Have a nice day and good night, sir.

Edited March 25, 2015 by JagCD

[JagCD]

 

Apparently YOU don't know how to use a dictionary. Definitions are commonly ordered in either frequency of usage or hierarchy of meaning. Sure, most of use could just give you the benefit of the doubt that you weren't referring to a >50% majority, but when you state that there's almost nothing left of the library when you remove fighting games, it's pretty clear to most higher functioning people that you meant the primary definition of the word. I'm sorry, but arguing semantics doesn't make you any less wrong.

 

And frequency of usage doesn't negate the other forms of usage.

 

And apparently the higher functioning people can also read my mind -- because it is very clear to me that you have misinterpreted what I actually said.

 

Have a good day, sir.

Edited March 25, 2015 by JagCD

[+madman]

Posted in a hurry last night, but yes the budget range of ST ports would only really have worked as 2 or more titles per volume and you'd have to use CD to make them cost effective, but i personally think there was a place for them.Raiden etc as launch games were hardly screaming 64 Bit were they?.

Yeah, that's the point. Their marketing was about how powerful the system was, but the games didn't look much better than SNES or Genesis games. So releasing 6 year old computer games would've only hurt the image even more. As Bill pointed out, it would be different if the system was already successful and released some retro carts, but of course that never happened.

[JagCD]

Saying that a genre of games has majority if it is not more than 50%, that is just weird. You could say that one genre has a majority, within itself of, lets say, good games together with descent games over the amount of bad games in the genre. It all comes down to 50,1% or not.

 

 

Weird or not -- it is still a correct usage of the word.

 

BTW, if you think Battlesphere Gold is expensive -- Jaguar ain't got nothing on the rarer Neo Geo titles ($30,000 for a single game):

https://games.yahoo.com/blogs/plugged-in/classic-neo-geo-game-sells-30-000-224135758.html

Edited March 25, 2015 by JagCD

[JagCD]

Yeah, that's the point. Their marketing was about how powerful the system was, but the games didn't look much better than SNES or Genesis games. So releasing 6 year old computer games would've only hurt the image even more. As Bill pointed out, it would be different if the system was already successful and released some retro carts, but of course that never happened.

 

I tend to agree with you on this point. Probably because the media took every opportunity to trash Atari that it could get. Releasing ST games would have just earned more bashing. However, Nintendo gets to slide all the time (re-releasing NES/SNES games on the Gameboy Advance.... N64 games on the 3DS, etc.). But, Nintendo always seems to get a pass (even when they suck -- which has been a lot lately).

Edited March 25, 2015 by JagCD

[Bill Loguidice]

 

I tend to agree with you on this point. Probably because the media took every opportunity to trash Atari that it could get. Releasing ST games would have just earned more bashing. However, Nintendo gets to slide all the time (re-releasing NES/SNES games on the Gameboy Advance.... N64 games on the 3DS, etc.). But, Nintendo always seems to get a pass (even when they suck -- which has been a lot lately).

 

To be fair, most "trashing" of companies and/or their products does have some basis in reality. As was stated, Atari's Jaguar advertising revolved around the system's power and, in general, Atari failed to deliver on that promise. This was especially an issue when it was competing against 16-bit systems at the height of their powers, from both a technical and quality standpoint.

 

As for Nintendo, like most companies, they get liberal passes from their hardcore fans, but in general are called out (and often rightly so) by those not so emotionally invested. Frankly, for that last sentence, you can substitute Atari for Nintendo and the statement still works. Also, I don't really consider your example of re-releasing NES/SNES titles on the GameBoy series or N64 games on the DS series a comparable example. Those titles remained impressive on the handheld formats they were ported to and did nothing to diminish the perceived quality of the devices. That's simply not the same as the example of pure ST ports appearing on the Jaguar.

[JagCD]

 

To be fair, most "trashing" of companies and/or their products does have some basis in reality. As was stated, Atari's Jaguar advertising revolved around the system's power and, in general, Atari failed to deliver on that promise. This was especially an issue when it was competing against 16-bit systems at the height of their powers, from both a technical and quality standpoint.

 

As for Nintendo, like most companies, they get liberal passes from their hardcore fans, but in general are called out (and often rightly so) by those not so emotionally invested. Frankly, for that last sentence, you can substitute Atari for Nintendo and the statement still works. Also, I don't really consider your example of re-releasing NES/SNES titles on the GameBoy series or N64 games on the DS series a comparable example. Those titles remained impressive on the handheld formats they were ported to and did nothing to diminish the perceived quality of the devices. That's simply not the same as the example of pure ST ports appearing on the Jaguar.

 

Seriously, have you seen some the NES re-releases on the Gameboy advance? Ice Climber? Balloon Fight? Wrecking Crew? Those were pretty marginal games by 1980's standards -- and technically awful by 2004 standards. Nintendo definitely got a pass for some of their titles. I think some ST ports with updated graphics for the Jaguar could have been fine. Let's face it -- Rayman only used the 68K processor and it looked/played great. It didn't need to be a Pseudo 3D style game to be fun in 1994.

Edited March 25, 2015 by JagCD

[AtariORdead]

 

Seriously, have you seen some the NES re-releases on the Gameboy advance? Ice Climber? Balloon Fight? Wrecking Crew? Those were pretty marginal games by 1980's standards -- and technically awful by 2004 standards. Nintendo definitely got a pass for some of their titles. I think some ST ports with updated graphics for the Jaguar could have been fine. Let's face it -- Rayman only used the 68K processor and it looked/played great. It didn't need to be a Pseudo 3D style game to be fun in 1994.

Big difference is that Nintendo were also managing to release new top quality titles alongside the remakes. Atari, however never managed to do either.

 

 

+ the ones you mentioned there were deliberately released as aclassic line of games with a budget price tag.

Edited March 25, 2015 by AtariORdead

[Austin]

Big difference is that Nintendo were also managing to release new top quality titles alongside the remakes. Atari, however never managed to do either.

 

 

+ the ones you mentioned there were deliberately released as aclassic line of games with a budget price tag.

 

Exactly. Those games were no where to be found when the GBA launched. Nintendo began running a Famicom throwback series of carts in Japan later in the GBA's life along with a Famicom-styled GBA SP. The NES Classic Series was the US version of that same line to go alongside the NES-style GBA SP. The GBA was already wildly successful at that point, so there's no basis in the comparison. Any earlier ports fall in line with what Bill said--they may have been old but were still impressive in handheld form (example, Super Mario Bros Advance/SMB2 USA at the GBA's launch). Same goes for Super Mario 64 released as a launch alongside the original DS.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Austin

[Lost Dragon]

It would of been even greater madness from Atari, than that we already witnessessed, to even release ST Ports at reduced prices on CD in the reality we know of the Jaguar, as they were busy telling UK Press at least that the CD drive was going to be the device that'd set the true power of the Jaguar free and it'd now be able to compete properly again'st the other CD based Super Consoles (3DO, Saturn+PS1) and things like Blue Lightning did further damage still to the Jaguar's reputation...

 

But had they delivered the goods with a lot more Triple A cartridge games, a much stronger launch and 2nd wave of must have exclusives on CD, even if they were just enhanced versions of the cart games (using Hoverstrike SE as an example of how to enhance an existing game), then and only then do i feel they would of been able to offer ST ports in a Retro comp.fashion on CD and not be slaughtered for it by the media.

 

Sadly that whole 32/64 Bit era was so focused on 3D, polygon per second, light sourcing etc benchmark...

[AtariORdead]

It would of been even greater madness from Atari, than that we already witnessessed, to even release ST Ports at reduced prices on CD in the reality we know of the Jaguar, as they were busy telling UK Press at least that the CD drive was going to be the device that'd set the true power of the Jaguar free and it'd now be able to compete properly again'st the other CD based Super Consoles (3DO, Saturn+PS1) and things like Blue Lightning did further damage still to the Jaguar's reputation...

 

But had they delivered the goods with a lot more Triple A cartridge games, a much stronger launch and 2nd wave of must have exclusives on CD, even if they were just enhanced versions of the cart games (using Hoverstrike SE as an example of how to enhance an existing game), then and only then do i feel they would of been able to offer ST ports in a Retro comp.fashion on CD and not be slaughtered for it by the media.

 

Sadly that whole 32/64 Bit era was so focused on 3D, polygon per second, light sourcing etc benchmark...

This, once you establish yourself and have good games you can then start releasing the classics. No platform is going to fare well if you are just porting over games from older systems from the very start.

Edited March 25, 2015 by AtariORdead

[JagCD]

+ the ones you mentioned there were deliberately released as aclassic line of games with a budget price tag.

 

True, but they were priced the same as Metroid, The Legend of Zelda and Super Mario Brothers.

I don't think any of those previously mentioned games were good enough to earn a re-release.

Zelda, Mario and Metroid certainly do.

[Lost Dragon]

(cont).. a lot of classic games being released on CD on PS1 and Saturn were put down as being far too old hat for the new systems.Friends of mine when i was a PS1 owner laughed at me buying things like Xcom, Worms, Super Dropzone, Capcom Generations, Strider, etc as they were seen as being old tat in their eyes, which i found somewhat bemusing, as those who'd only known consoles like the MS, MD and SNES before, had gone giddy at Starfox on the SNES, yet i'd been loving polygon 3D games on the ST for years before the SFX chip, so could'nt see what the fuss was all about.

 

 

As a PS1 owner, i just wanted great games, be they cutting edge 3D or better versions of games i'd loved on the MD (ie Strider, loved that game so happy to buy again on PS1, ditto Super Dropzone on SNES).Just because i'd moved on, sold off older hardware did'nt mean i was'nt moissing some of the games i'd loved on it.

[AtariORdead]

 

True, but they were priced the same as Metroid, The Legend of Zelda and Super Mario Brothers.

I don't think any of those previously mentioned games were good enough to earn a re-release.

Zelda, Mario and Metroid certainly do.

They were all part of the NES classics line up. some were better than others.

[JagCD]

This, once you establish yourself and have good games you can then start releasing the classics. No platform is going to fare well if you are just porting over games from older systems from the very start.

 

What's kind of funny is that's actually how the Jaguar was launched. How many of those early games were ports from 16 bit systems? (Dino Dudes, Raiden, Zool 2)....

Ugh.....

 

So yeah, your point is made quite well:

No platform would perform well with old ports in the launch lineup.

Edited March 25, 2015 by JagCD

[+madman]

 

Weird or not -- it is still a correct usage of the word.

 

BTW, if you think Battlesphere Gold is expensive -- Jaguar ain't got nothing on the rarer Neo Geo titles ($30,000 for a single game):

https://games.yahoo.com/blogs/plugged-in/classic-neo-geo-game-sells-30-000-224135758.html

Read about this on Neo-Geo.com. I'm not going to go into the full story here.

[+madman]

 

Let's face it -- Rayman only used the 68K processor and it looked/played great.

False, per one of the employees at Ubisoft. But then again, you've been resistant to facts the entire time you've been on this thread, so I'm not sure why you'd change now. Or if I pointed you to a quote, you would say it was hyperbole and that I'm an idiot and clearly you didn't mean it "only used the 68k" and you would continue your condescending tone.

[AtariORdead]

 

Seriously, have you seen some the NES re-releases on the Gameboy advance? Ice Climber? Balloon Fight? Wrecking Crew? Those were pretty marginal games by 1980's standards -- and technically awful by 2004 standards. Nintendo definitely got a pass for some of their titles. I think some ST ports with updated graphics for the Jaguar could have been fine. Let's face it -- Rayman only used the 68K processor and it looked/played great. It didn't need to be a Pseudo 3D style game to be fun in 1994.

You know what, honestly what is your problem. You really come across as a little crybaby whinging little girl.

 

wah wah wah the the neo Geo is crap without the fighting games, Jag has much better and diverse library.

 

wah wah wah how come we can't have loads of ST ports, Nintendo are allowd to do it with the advance.

 

seriously you spend far too much time crying about other companies and what they were doing and whining about how its unfair on the Jag. Maybe if Atari learnt from other companies about how to eun a bloody business they would not have crashed and burned.

[Austin]

As a PS1 owner, i just wanted great games, be they cutting edge 3D or better versions of games i'd loved on the MD (ie Strider, loved that game so happy to buy again on PS1, ditto Super Dropzone on SNES).Just because i'd moved on, sold off older hardware did'nt mean i was'nt moissing some of the games i'd loved on it.

 

The thing about this is that at this moment in console history, it was the first time we received perfect arcade conversions of those '80s and early '90s arcade games. As great as the home versions of some of those titles were (like Strider and Ghouls 'n Ghosts on the Mega Drive), they were still far off from the arcade originals. I personally snapped up all of the arcade compilations I could back then, in particular the Capcom Generations series, Strider 2 on the PS1 (for the original Strider), the Arcade Party Pak on the PS1 (for Smash TV), the Sega Ages trilogy pack for the Saturn (OutRun, Space Harrier, After Burner II), Raiden Project on the PS1, etc. It was an amazing time to be a gamer, because not only did we have that new, cutting-edge tech, but we finally started to get flawless arcade conversions of many past favorites.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Austin

[Lost Dragon]

Right from the 'Official' canning of the Panther Console, Atari was busy creating a massive rod for it's own back with the marketing angle and hype for the Jaguar (sadly) telling the industry/press you'd cancelled your inital SNES/MD beating console in your R+D labs because you wanted WOW machines, not those comparable to your rivals, was a bold statement, but soon as you said those '64 Bit' words...you had just given the media the biggest chance yet to lay into you as soon as you slipped up.

 

If you did'nt have the funds or the 3rd party support on board to deliver exactly the type of games the media expected from '64 Bit' gaming, your ass was indeed grass...porting Panther games to Jaguar might of been cheap option, some cases it worked (Cybermorph) others it did'nt....but launching with things like Raiden, Dino Dudes, Crescent Galaxy, etc was never going to work out well..

 

Initally they were forgiving in places, but that forgiveness soon turned into open scorn...

[Lost Dragon]

@Austin:Yep...phrase Arcade Perfect was doing the rounds a little too often in MD press here alone.Strider on MD was indeed bloody superb, as were other Capcom etc ports to the MD, far better than the ST versions, better even than the Amiga versions too in cases, but Arcade perfect? no...things like speech samples etc missing, cosmetic, sure but when there was a chance to buy 'true' arcade perfect versions, a generation later, i leapt at the chance.

 

For myself the lowly MCD proved what was possible using newer hardware and the CD medium, not only had things like Batman Returns and Terminator SE shown how to turn existing MD titles into stunning enhanced versions, but Thunderhawk showed how to reboot a game i'd loved on ST for a new market.

 

Capcom's Final Fight was fantastic (ok, less colours than arcade but..), the extra features etc showed how it should be done.There were rumours Final Fight was to be just the 1st such enhanced conversion, claims of proper arcade perfect conversions of Strider...

[Lost Dragon]

(Cont)..Street Fighter 2 etc headed along with E.A doing a best of...Strike Game...features from all 3 Strike Games used to make a brand new Strike game, along with all 3 originals on the disc as well.

 

Sadly these all seemed to be yet more utter speculation from the press :-(

 

But i really do think Sega missed a big trick by not converting a lot of it's scaler based coin-ops to the MCD.

 

When they released Afterburner and Space Harrier on 32X, UK press again, just mocked, this was'nt what they expected on 32Bit RISC based hardware, take it away....

 

 

Fickle beast the gaming press....

[Austin]

When they released Afterburner and Space Harrier on 32X, UK press again, just mocked, this was'nt what they expected on 32Bit RISC based hardware, take it away....

 

 

Fickle beast the gaming press....

 

Yeah, fickle beast for sure. Those were awesome games on the 32X at the time (and still are today)--again, the first time we ever received ports of those games that were so close to the arcade versions. The 32X renditions were pretty much identical to the later Saturn ones, albeit with a few framerate hiccups here and there.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Austin

[JagCD]

@Austin:Yep...phrase Arcade Perfect was doing the rounds a little too often in MD press here alone.Strider on MD was indeed bloody superb, as were other Capcom etc ports to the MD, far better than the ST versions, better even than the Amiga versions too in cases, but Arcade perfect? no...things like speech samples etc missing, cosmetic, sure but when there was a chance to buy 'true' arcade perfect versions, a generation later, i leapt at the chance.

 

For myself the lowly MCD proved what was possible using newer hardware and the CD medium, not only had things like Batman Returns and Terminator SE shown how to turn existing MD titles into stunning enhanced versions, but Thunderhawk showed how to reboot a game i'd loved on ST for a new market.

 

Capcom's Final Fight was fantastic (ok, less colours than arcade but..), the extra features etc showed how it should be done.There were rumours Final Fight was to be just the 1st such enhanced conversion, claims of proper arcade perfect conversions of Strider...

 

See, now you guys are getting me all fired up.

I absolutely loved the Sega CD (as we called it here). The driving levels of Batman Returns was freakin' amazing. The Sega CD version of Final Fight absolutely demolished the SNES version. I always thought the Mega CD/Sega CD was awesome -- but in retrospect it was probably the beginning of the end for Sega hardware. Too many orphaned systems, too quickly.... it really burned a lot of fans over the long-term.

 

Anyone remember Silpheed on the Sega CD? Freaking epic.

[Lost Dragon]

The other 'option' and this might have been ahead of it's time and simply not commercially viable, but a man can dream, is for Atari to have gotten 3rd party developers to do sequels to ST/Amiga 'classics' on the Jaguar and include the 16 Bit Micro versions as bonus material...i mean Tempest and Defender 2000 have the original and enhanced versions alongside the 2000 ver. Missile Command 3D had similar options so it would be feasable from a room on CD point of view i guess?.

I'd of gone apeshit over say even Lynx Toki, being on Toki Goes Apeshit, or a Jaguar exclusive from Jez in form of Starglider 2, with 1st 2 Stargliders on same disc, Bitmaps doing Speedball 3 with 1st 2 games included.This sort of thing...if CD32 was getting a follow up to Captive, N64 was to get a 3D Turrican in form of Thornado, Mike Singleton had concept etc in place for Midwinter 3 on PS2, Jaguar already had likes of Towers 2, Zero 5 etc with 'origins' on ST/Falcon, i honestly expected some European developers try new...