JAGUAR, 3DO, AND THE CDI

[Rubio80]

How is it when you're presented with logical arguments backed by facts on here you respond with opinions (LOL my friend laughed for 2 minutes!) or nonsense logic (1990 - 2004 isn't 14 years)? Allow me to prove my point while using your debating skills:

I told my friend about your friend laughing for 2 minutes and my friend laughed for THREE minutes. Therefore the Neo Geo was a success.

LOL! Best post ever, I've been laughing for about 5 minutes!!

 

There's no problem, he doesn't want to recognize something obvious, I give up...

[NeoGeoNinja]

Hmmm.

 

Pretty sure I covered the ENTIRE LATTER of this thread, before it happened, via post #178.

 

However, a hungry troll is hungry, regardless. Unless... you feed it.

[Austin]

However, a hungry troll is hungry, regardless. Unless... you feed it.

 

Feeding it results in the hilarity that is this thread. Who wouldn't want quality entertainment like this?

[JagCD]

 

He said it himself "the last console of a game company that went belly up IS a commercial failure".

 

And now you are all rewriting history.

 

The strain of manufacturing Neo Geo Hardware is what killed SNK Corporation (I think Kawasaki himself had even acknowledged that in old news interviews). They certainly lived for 11 years of the

Neo Geo era. But they posted financial losses for 6 out of those 11 years before going bankrupt. When Tommo came to them recently about the Neo Geo X console, SNK Playmore made it very clear they were only

willing to license it -- and not manufacture it. SNK Playmore clearly is still feeling burned from its hardware manufacturing days for home systems.

 

The Neo Geo AES would have had a profit margin on the hardware if it had managed to sell at the initial $649 MSRP. But it didn't sell. After a few months, SNK was forced to lower the MSRP to $399 to clear unsold inventory

at retail -- and suddenly SNK Corporation was losing money on every Neo Geo AES it sold to home users. They had hoped to recoup the money on the game cartridges (which were still profitable at the $200 price point) --

but again, they never hit the volumes needed to breakeven. So the profits from arcades kept the money losing home offerings afloat for the early years -- but as the arcades started drying up, they were

dead in the water.

 

You are all ignoring the fact that SNK Corporation was a considerably more profitable company when it was solely an arcade producer / software maker from 1978 through 1990.

There wasn't a single year out of those first 12 in which they lost money. The arcades were booming and they were riding the wave with games like Ikari Warriors. It is very clear that

very few of you know the history of this company.

 

The bottom line is SNK Corporation was bleeding to death by the late 1990's (due to the Neo Geo) -- Aruze bought them and attempted to rescue them. It backfired (Aruze made the existing executives very

angry) and the company wasn't viable after the talent left to create SNK Playmore.

Edited March 17, 2015 by JagCD

[JagCD]

I would give up, he clearly is an idiot.

 

1. Commercially available means available to buy, whether that is Arcade owners or Private owners.

 

2. As the MVS and the AES are the same system they are interlinked in terms of sales. You can't differentiate between them. Its just like an NES and Famicom, same hardware and software seperated by simply being available in 2 different configurations

 

3. The Neo Geo did not Fail, it kept SNK in profit for over a decade, SNK's troubles began in 2000, three years after stopping production of the neo geo and trying to move on with the Hyper Neo Geo 64 and Neo Geo pocket. They were still doing ok when they ditched the original Neo Geo hardware.

 

4. The Neo Geo CD, while not selling brilliantly, did ok for SNK. They already had the hardware and only needed to add a cd drive so the R&D costs were kept to a minimum and they already had a large library of games ready to port to CD so the outlay was minimal compared to your average new console release as was the development costs of the games due to them just being ported over.

 

5. What was the end was in fact when they were bought out by some Pachinko company who were only interested in using SNKs popular games as a basis for pachinko versions and they vastly underfunded the videogame side of things.

 

The NeoGeo hardware was actually the platform they built their sucess on, it had little to do with the comapany failing.

 

So let me get this right. You have now moved to name calling while getting the facts wrong.

From 1990 through 2001 -- SNK Corporation lost money 6 out of those 11 years. It was their financial hardship that made them

a takeover target for Aruze.

 

SNK Corporation was far more profitable between 1978 through 1990 -- the years prior to the Neo Geo's existance as a home game console.

They also dominated the arcades before and after the Neo Geo (not just during the time of the Neo Geo) . And they were a far more profitable company before it.

And so is the seperate company SNK Playmore, after it.

 

And as for arcades, SNK Playmore has been far more financial successful (no financial losses) when they switched to using Atomiswave (they initially used legacy

Neo Geo MVS) and later Taito's Type X2 arcade.

 

So the facts completely prove the opposite of what you are saying. I know, I am using facts -- imagine that. You guys keep lobbing incorrect conjecture.

Edited March 17, 2015 by JagCD

[JAGUAR]

Neo Geo is overrated and was overpriced in the 90's. Atari Jaguar is underrated and was underpriced in the 90's.

[AtariORdead]

Neo Geo is overrated and was overpriced in the 90's. Atari Jaguar is underrated and was underpriced in the 90's.

 

 

Jag was Rated right where it should have been. I have a Jag, I got one then And I have one now and I will still play on it now and then.

 

I was lucky, I had the Snes, MS, and Jag. The lack of software was not an issue for me as I could just buy the odd decent game that came out, Much more often than not I always found my money better spent on other machines. I ended up with a half dozen decent games though.

 

I would have been seriously pissed if I only had the Jag as a gaming console, the fact is it was terrible to have one as your only console. It is not underrated at all. It was far behind in terms of appeal and quality of software to even the 16bit Snes and MD at the time.

Edited March 17, 2015 by AtariORdead

[Atlantis]

- Neo Geo has an extreme cult following, and today the prices are INSANE, with the insaneness it has always been. In a way the legacy, and the cult status, can be considered as a success or even a "commercial" success, being the holy cow within the retro gaming sub-culture. It is almost a game system religion around Neo.

- the value of Neo games are still sky rocketin', even today beyond absurdness. It can be seen as a commercial success on a cultural not only material level as a success.

- Most important: A 4th generation system lasted 11 to 14 years, could be seen as a commercial success.

Yes, it doesn't exit today, but most video game companies try to get to a next generation. SNK never seem to focus on that -- for real -- but stay to a at some point dying generation, trying to keep the Neo alive as long as possible. At some point it can't stay alive.

Neo over lived itself, and can be seen as a commercial success, especially if you add the culture aspect to the material selling rates.

And, as people say, you cant't compare Neo with Jag, you can't compare SNK to Nintendo.

Peace!!

Edited March 17, 2015 by Atlantis

[+madman]

JagCD, on 16 Mar 2015 - 6:34 PM, said:

 

You clearly don't realize that SNK Corporation and SNK Playmore were seperate companies -- so it is technically impossible for the Neo Geo to have been continuously supported for 14 years (the system debuted in 1990 with SNK Corporation closing down in 2001... So yet another distortion from reality). Seriously, if you are going to talk about something -- at least try to know what your talking about.

 

The strain of manufacturing Neo Geo Hardware is what killed SNK Corporation (I think Kawasaki himself had even acknowledged that in old news interviews). When Tommo came to them recently about the Neo Geo X console, SNK Playmore made it very clear they were only willing to license it -- and not manufacture it. SNK Playmore clearly is still feeling burned from its hardware manufacturing days for home systems.

 

So let me understand this. The Neo Geo wasn't supported for 14 years because SNK and SNKP are different companies. But SNKP is clearly still feeling burned from its hardware manufacturing days for home systems? Can you elaborate on the home systems that SNKP released? Surely you don't mean the AES, Neo Geo CD or the Neo Geo Pocket models because those were released by SNK, which as you pointed out, was an entirely different company and therefore "technically impossible".

[OldSchoolRetroGamer]

JagCD -

 

[JagChris]

 

 

Jag was Rated right where it should have been. I have a Jag, I got one then And I have one now and I will still play on it now and then.

 

I was lucky, I had the Snes, MS, and Jag. The lack of software was not an issue for me as I could just buy the odd decent game that came out, Much more often than not I always found my money better spent on other machines. I ended up with a half dozen decent games though.

 

I would have been seriously pissed if I only had the Jag as a gaming console, the fact is it was terrible to have one as your only console. It is not underrated at all. It was far behind in terms of appeal and quality of software to even the 16bit Snes and MD at the time.

 

I agree. It wasn't much underrated besides the from time to time unfair review. But it was underutilized.

[+save2600]

…and I thought my head hurt BEFORE reading this thread.

 

Guess I've learned there's all new metrics that describe if a system or company was "successful" or not!

 

*A game company that produced a very popular (among operators especially - THE people that make that overpriced and "initial" ever evolving R&D investment) with an easily interchangeable/upgradeable arcade system that game players were just as fond of (who else would tolerate rehash after rehash after rehash?), but ended up going bankrupt or changed hands throughout the years - throw all that aside: not successful.

 

*Ignore the boon that was the video arcade and console gaming industry from the 70's and 80's, but somehow try to correlate that data with what happened in the 90's and 2000's.

 

*Products (not mismanagement) are responsible for bankruptcies or failures.

 

Truly do learn something new each and every day here!

[JagCD]

 

JagCD, on 16 Mar 2015 - 6:34 PM, said:

So let me understand this. The Neo Geo wasn't supported for 14 years because SNK and SNKP are different companies. But SNKP is clearly still feeling burned from its hardware manufacturing days for home systems? Can you elaborate on the home systems that SNKP released? Surely you don't mean the AES, Neo Geo CD or the Neo Geo Pocket models because those were released by SNK, which as you pointed out, was an entirely different company and therefore "technically impossible".

 

 

Technically SNKPM didn't release a home system (but a technicality -- SNK Playmore and SNK Corporation are different companies, but with many of the same management team). They were only willing to license their intellectual properties to Tommo -- Tommo is the company that released this console in late 2012:

 

The Neo Geo X is a decent little homage to the original, but definitely not up to the build quality of real SNK hardware.

Edited March 18, 2015 by JagCD

[+madman]

 

SNK Playmore clearly is still feeling burned from its hardware manufacturing days for home systems.

 

 

Technically SNKPM didn't release a home system.

So which is it? Now you're even arguing with yourself. Classic trolling, dude. Truly brilliant stuff!

[JagCD]

…and I thought my head hurt BEFORE reading this thread.

 

Guess I've learned there's all new metrics that describe if a system or company was "successful" or not!

 

*A game company that produced a very popular (among operators especially - THE people that make that overpriced and "initial" ever evolving R&D investment) with an easily interchangeable/upgradeable arcade system that game players were just as fond of (who else would tolerate rehash after rehash after rehash?), but ended up going bankrupt or changed hands throughout the years - throw all that aside: not successful.

 

*Products (not mismanagement) are responsible for bankruptcies or failures.

 

Truly do learn something new each and every day here!

 

Product plans are the result of decisions made by management. So yes, commercial failure of those respective products are indeed responsible for the failure of companies / bankruptcies.

This is all basic business school stuff. Selling an unprofitable product is indeed mismanagement.\

 

Again, no one is disputing that the Neo Geo was popular among arcade operators. That always historically made money for them. But starting to sell to consumers in 1990 is what

ultimately lead to their demise. Had they stuck to arcades / software releases (Nintendo) -- there would never have been a bankruptcy.

[JagCD]

 

So which is it? Now you're even arguing with yourself. Classic trolling, dude. Truly brilliant stuff!

 

The executives at SNK Corp and SNK Playmore are the same people (Kawasaki, Kei, Tomita, etc. ). They are different business entities.... Apparently you ride the short bus to school.

Try to keep up.

Edited March 18, 2015 by JagCD

[+madman]

 

The executives at SNK Corp and SNK Playmore are the same people (executives). They are different business entities.... Apparently you ride the short bus to school.

Try to keep up.

Nope, just pointing out the inaccuracies in your "logic" as we've all been doing. And you continue to ignore it.

[JagCD]

Nope, just pointing out the inaccuracies in your "logic" as we've all been doing. And you continue to ignore it.

 

Yeah, according to your logic -- Duration is the key to success.

 

Thus Germany and Japan were more successful in World War II because they fought it longer than the United States (by your train of thought). Never mind both Japan and Germany completely collapsed and were forced to surrender (just like SNK Corp's bankruptcy). Shrewd mind.

 

Seems like a failure in reading comprehension on your part, don't see any inaccuraracy there.

Edited March 18, 2015 by JagCD

[+madman]

I know, I am using facts -- imagine that. You guys keep lobbing incorrect conjecture.

 

 

Had they stuck to arcades / software releases (Nintendo) -- there would never have been a bankruptcy.

I've never seen someone troll themselves as much as you do.

[JagCD]

 

 

I've never seen someone troll themselves as much as you do.

 

So apparently we're not allowed to share personal opinions/conclusions based on factual arguments? You must have aced debate class. You do realize that most people can tell the difference.

Without selling money losing hardware = SNK Corp would have never lost money = No bankruptcy. (Basically running SNK Corp like they did from 1978 through 1990 versus expanding into consumer

hardware as they did circa 1990).

 

That would be pretty intiuitive to most people.

 

Edited March 18, 2015 by JagCD

[Rubio80]

Neo Geo is overrated and was overpriced in the 90's. Atari Jaguar is underrated and was underpriced in the 90's.

And there we have the most stupid post in the thread. Quoted for posterity! You don't even deserve to be responded because:

 

1 - You have no idea of what you're talking about.

 

2 - You're just a fanboy troll who only wants people attention.

 

3 - Both previous options.

 

I would bet option 3 wins, hands down.

 

 

The Neo Geo X is a decent little homage to the original, but definitely not up to the build quality of real SNK hardware.

Neo Geo X is an insult to SNKs masterpiece, awful emulation that even with the revision Tommo made is a shame in itself (it has been ages since there are spot on emulators available) and awful build quality. And you call it decent homage? A PSP plays Neo Geo games much better.

 

I was excited when I heard the Neo X was in development and I was decided to buy it if it finally was decent but the result is really bad, so bad even SNKP retired the license. To play this crap I prefer to stay with MAME and save the money for something else. The box is nice though.

 

So, you buy a NEO Geo CD to play fighting games and you buy a Neo X and are happy with it... dude, there's something wrong in your decisions don't you think...

Edited March 18, 2015 by Rubio80

[Willard]

- Neo Geo has an extreme cult following, and today the prices are INSANE, with the insaneness it has always been. In a way the legacy, and the cult status, can be considered as a success or even a "commercial" success, being the holy cow within the retro gaming sub-culture. It is almost a game system religion around Neo.

 

By those standards the Jaguar is a success too I don't know about it as being a "holy cow" among retro gaming sub-culture though, just to die-hard fans of the system. I'd say based on the few threads that Ive read Neo Geo fans can get a little more intense than Jaguar fans, and the Jaguar community has had some pretty intense personalities

 

I don't care about the system but it has a few nice games, most of which I got on my Wii VC. Personally I think that the AES was a failure from a cost and mass-market perspective, failure to evolve their hardware design and cut costs .etc but was probably a success financially (or at least sustainable) because of the nonexistent cost of converting the MVS games (their core of the whole AES/CD satellite stuff). It was kind of a weird home console being 2D and still existing against the evolution of 3D gaming, the fact that they kept it going was pretty interesting at least.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Willard

[phoenixdownita]

FWIW very long and detailed article about the whole story:

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/the-history-of-snk/1100-6089278/

 

Not sure how accurate it is and there are no actual numbers to look at, but I liked reading it.

[Papa]

Who here every saw/played a Neo Geo AES in a hotel? This was where the idea that it was popular enough to sell to consumers came from. I wonder if the AES kits in hotels were any different (appearance, etc..) than the product. I would have to agree that they may have been a financial success if they stayed in the arcades, casinos, and hotels. They may not have had such an insane fanboy crowd reaping it up today, though.

 

What are the most expensive Jaguar, CDi, or 3DO games people bid their livers over? I know that there are at least a couple of AES carts that are just crazy expensive, especially if you can just get the MVS of the same game and throw down for a converter card and a bios upgrade and get the continue modes or region selections.

 

Can we all agree that the Neo Geo has hijacked this thread?

 

I was just playing Last Resort and comparing it to Lords of Thunder. It made me realize that the CD as a medium may have had a lot to do with Neo Geo's degradation in the mind of the consumer. Following the newer thing that just came out, so to speak, even though it may not be better. I usually like MIDI and chip sound better than CD tracks. Even though the NeoGeo doesn't really have a game that rocks (musically) as hard as the soundtrack on Lords of Thunder, the game itself may not fit the music as well as some of the Neo Geo titles.

[Atlantis]

 

By those standards the Jaguar is a success too I don't know about it as being a "holy cow" among retro gaming sub-culture though, just to die-hard fans of the system. I'd say based on the few threads that Ive read Neo Geo fans can get a little more intense than Jaguar fans, and the Jaguar community has had some pretty intense personalities

 

Yes, I think that is the main point, we all here level a bit. I will stick to the home consoles here not include the handhelds:

 

No, Jaguar (and Lynx) could not be seen as commercial successes (nor cultural successes), but Atari had a prime time with the 2600. 2600 Prime time, after that fall to bankruptcy with Jaguar as the last try to compete and survive. But Atari had a material prime time, and had a time of commercial success.

 

Neo Geo, I would say had more of a pseudo-prime time around 1991, 1992 with both the MVS and AES. After 1993 the AES became few carts for the die-hard fans that already exist, but the MVS continued to work in arcade halls in at least Japan for some years to come. They tried to follow the generation transform with the short lived 64 Neo (and Pocket). Then out of business, but had a small pseudo-prime time in the small arcade market.

 

Nintendo: NES, SNES, Wii = three prime times, peaks, and then survivor mode around N64, Wii U... Will Nintendo survive in the future, who knows. They might go out of business in the competition with Xbox and PS. But that wouldn't kill the fact that they had three prime times/peaks, even though they in the future might not exist.

 

Nothing lasts forever. But Atari had a prime time, SNK may had one within the arcades, and Nintendo up to this day has three prime times/peaks imho.

 

Who knows, in 200 years MS/XBOX and PS might be out of business, but waaay back in early 2000 and today they rocked and rolled!!

 

All of this can of course be debated

Edited March 18, 2015 by Atlantis