TransKey-II in development

[+mytek]

Hi Yogi, glad to see you back in this thread (no need to feel sorry).

 

I haven't tried it with a KVM switch, but it seems reasonable to think it should work since the PS/2 signals are unaltered. Let me know what you discover.

 

- Michael

 

EDIT: I too like the mobility of a separate keyboard, really nice to set it on your lap and kick back in the lounge chair. Also it makes the transition from PC to Atari and back much easier (at least it does for me).

 

 

Hi Michael,

So many enhancements, looking forward to trying them

And respect to Fuji-man. I'm sure there are more then a few that will want/need built boards. As mods go, a PC KB is really a nice one; one of my biggest 'nit-picks' with, not just the A8 but all of the retro machines, is being locked into not being able to arrange my work space. Gotten used to being able to move the KB as I like. I know it's kind of contrary to the retro 'experience' and all but really like my KB mobil when I'm spending a lot of time on it

There's a question I have, is there any reason I couldn't use a PS2 KVM switch (less the the Monitor connection of course)? Thinking about sharing the KB & Mouse between a couple systems. I'll be trying it out but just wanted to ask.

Sheepish mode::

Sorry I've been MIA, got all the parts in but also got busy with other things. Will be compiling a build how-to in the next few weeks and release the Eagle project as soon as I've verified the board (unless someone wants the file sooner, which is fine, just let me know. As much as I feel that there aren't any errors, don't want to cause anyone extra headache with an unverified board). Just pokin' along, sorry.

Yogi

Edited December 20, 2015 by mytekcontrols

[gilsaluki]

Any recommendations for a good PS/2 keyboard?

[+mytek]

Any recommendations for a good PS/2 keyboard?

 

That really depends on what you like... meaning the feel of the keys for one. As for compatibility issues, thus far I haven't found any keyboards that don't work properly with the TK-II (and I have a box full of at least 10 different brands that I've tested, with some dating back quite a few years, and some more recent). Also Steve Carden has tested it with a Kensington 64364 PS/2 "Wireless" keyboard/mouse combo that appears to work quite well, including the mouse (LINK). And here's a picture from that Ebay listing of what you get. Looks real nice, maybe I'll pick one up as well.

 

 

Out of all of my non-wireless keyboards, I like one of the DELL's, also an E-Machines one, and for a truly industrial design my IBM Model M. I'll see if I can snap a few pics of the ones I'm talking about.

 

- Michael

Edited December 20, 2015 by mytekcontrols

[+ZuluGula]

Do you know if something like $10 K150 programmer from ebay would program PIC16F1847 easily and reliably? $65 programmer is a little too much for someone who needs to program one or two chips.

Or maybe TL866CS will work and can be used to program other roms and chips?

Edited December 20, 2015 by ZuluGula

[+mytek]

Do you know if something like $10 K150 programmer from ebay would program PIC16F1847 easily and reliably? $65 programmer is a little too much for someone who needs to program one or two chips.

Or maybe TL866CS will work and can be used to program other roms and chips?

Unfornately the K150's (and their clones) don't recognize some of the newer PICs like the PIC16F1847 with the programming app that they come with, or any alternative that I know of. Really too bad since I have two such programmers in my possesion. Not sure about the TL866CS, but once again it would depend upon whether support was incorporated in the actual app.

 

I used this particular chip since it met all my requirements such as internal oscillator (no crystal or RC needed), good size EEPROM for macros, good size Flash program memory, and just the right amount of I/O. It was a perfect fit for my needs, and no other chip would have worked in its place. And as a plus, it's very inexpensive.

 

- Michael

[+ZuluGula]

And as a plus, it's very inexpensive.

It would be nice if someone with the programmer could offer those for sale.

 

It doesn't make sense for individual to buy $65 device to program single $2 chip. I may try to program it with TL866CS when I make my next components order, but I don't see it listed in supported chips.

Edited December 20, 2015 by ZuluGula

[+Stephen]

I have a TL866CS burner. I just upgraded to the latest 6.17 software, and the PIC16F1847 is not in their list of supported ICs.

[Van]

Do you know if something like $10 K150 programmer from ebay would program PIC16F1847 easily and reliably? $65 programmer is a little too much for someone who needs to program one or two chips.

Or maybe TL866CS will work and can be used to program other roms and chips?

There are a lot of Pickit3 clones on Ebay in the $10-$30 range, they should support the 'F1847, (IF they are functionally the same as the Microchip PicKit3). The ones with a zif socket board would be a good choice if you wanted to do some development, but for a one time flash could use a solderless bread board.

Yogi

[Fuji-Man]

$10 pic chip shipped US priority.

[gilsaluki]

I like the clicky-click of the old keyboards. Mechanical switches, I believe. I don't need anything real advanced or fancy. Just want to have that positive feedback/feel of the keys. I can type much faster, and without error with a great keyboard.

[thorfdbg]

I like the clicky-click of the old keyboards. Mechanical switches, I believe. I don't need anything real advanced or fancy. Just want to have that positive feedback/feel of the keys. I can type much faster, and without error with a great keyboard.

 

Keyboards with mechanical switches are still available, though you have to search for them. I've here two Cherry keyboards with "blue" MX switches that work wonderfully - with "clicky-click", of course. However, not all the Cherries come with this type of switch, so beware. Cherry offers a wide variety of keyboards, most of which with the typical rubber membrane type of switch.

 

 

[Van]

I like the clicky-click of the old keyboards. Mechanical switches, I believe. I don't need anything real advanced or fancy. Just want to have that positive feedback/feel of the keys. I can type much faster, and without error with a great keyboard.

About two months ago I found a nice beige Dell PS2 in the 2nd hand store. Seems like it's not too old but really has a nice clicky spring loaded action with about 1/4" travel. Very nice compared to the modern rubber mat that are the norm. Very solid with steel sub assembly. Don't know if it uses Cherry switches and I ended up taking the sticker off when I took it apart to clean, but with it being a Dell there should be a few more still out there.

Yogi

[+mytek]

This is my favorite newer style PS/2 keyboard, a Dell 04N454 (RT7D20).

 

 

It has a clicky feel to the keys and can be found fairly cheap on-line, price range: $4 - $19 (Ebay search phrase: Dell 04N454). What I also like, is that it doesn't have any of those extra bells & whistle keys like Email, WWW, Mute, Volume, ect. which would have no usage with TK-II.

 

 

And if you really want that definitive clicky-clak feel and sound, and don't mind the hefty weight and size, the IBM Model M can't be beat, price range: $30 - $150 (Ebay search phrase: IBM Model M).

 

 

- Michael

[gilsaluki]

Thanks for the KB suggestions. I will check them out. Even my old Microsoft Natural I used to have with my old Gateway was good. I now wished I'd kept it. I don't think I want to go wireless, no real need to type 15 or more feet away from my monitor, can't see that well these days any how.

[Kyle22]

Hi Mike, can you compare the attached file with the one in the PIC chip that I have? I told my TL866 that it was a PIC16F88 and un-selected the check device ID box.

 

Attached is the file produced from reading the TK-II PIC chip.

 

If the programmer will read the chip correctly, it should program, right?

 

 

TKII.zip

[+mytek]

Hi Mike, can you compare the attached file with the one in the PIC chip that I have? I told my TL866 that it was a PIC16F88 and un-selected the check device ID box.

 

Attached is the file produced from reading the TK-II PIC chip.

 

If the programmer will read the chip correctly, it should program, right?

 

Hi Kyle,

 

Just woke up over here (5:30am) and all my Atari related stuff is over at my shop, which I'll be heading over to in a few hours. When I get there I'll check this out. Yes the F88 is the closest match for the F1847 pinout wise, but there are some slight differences internally, so the chip configuration bits will be somewhat different. Not sure if that stuff will come through intact when programming as another device type, but I also don't see how it would hurt the chip to try. Just might not function. However if it were to work, that would be fantastic, since these programmers being so versatile are worth the investment.

 

- Michael

Edited December 22, 2015 by mytekcontrols

[+mytek]

Kyle -- The format of the file you gave me is a binary file. What I really need is a Hex file (INHX8 or INHX32). I have no way to load a binary into MPLAB IPE, which is what I'll use to do a comparison by simply flashing a chip with your dump and then verify this against my original file. Is this the only format your programmer produces?

 

PIC Hex Format

 

- Michael

[+mytek]

You know I probably shouldn't get on here when I'm frustrated, but the one thing about this project that really irks me is the mouse. To best describe what I think about it, I would have to say that I hate it . I kinda talked myself into thinking that it was OK, but to be truthful it isn't. I think the biggest problem comes down to there being no IRQ assigned to it, so I have to try to poll it and send characters to POKEY all at the same time. Not to say that with some very creative code it couldn't be done properly, but without interrupts it is presently very crippled. This is what happens when you try to add something that was never intended in the first place, and then fail to really think it through. My project started out with only a keyboard in mind, and this did get properly implemented and works quite well. Then through no fault of his own, someone put the idea of adding a mouse in my ear. It really was a great idea, but unfortunately not having an IRQ assigned to it is my fault and there is no way to fix that now. So although I will be releasing a new firmware soon (as I mentioned several times already), the mouse will still be crippled, but it will work with the new version of the ECKN+ game.

 

So what exactly do I mean by crippled? The biggest problem is that the polling/sending can't keep up with the mouse, and you will see this as the cursor movement slowing down or stuttering if you move the mouse too fast. Also for reasons that presently escape me, sometimes the mouse gets stuck repeating the last move, and needs to be jiggled to stop the cursor from traveling.

 

So for all of those that are looking to add a mouse to their Atari, this isn't the right solution, at least not yet. However if you want a great PS/2 keyboard adapter, this is it

 

- Michael

 

EDIT: Well maybe "hate" is too strong of a word. Let's just say I very much dislike the way it behaves

Edited December 22, 2015 by mytekcontrols

[Kyle22]

It produces Intel Hex format files. Here's another zip with a screenshot included to show the configuration bit settings (which I know nothing about).

 

-K

TKII.zip

[Fuji-Man]

Michael,

 

TKII is a GREAT PS/2 Keyboard solution with macros. Mission accomplished.

Mouse emulation through POKEY is an amazing task, but you're stuck with the coarse granularity of it.

PIA (joysticks/paddle) may be a better way to skin that cat.

All I know is that you've created something that many of us wanted a LONG time ago.

A better keyboard solution for those who couldn't get an original Transkey without paying through the nose for one on EvilBay.

I only had one TK, and wished I had more of them.

 

Fuji-Man

[+mytek]

Kyle -- So I got your file to load in MPLAB IPE, but it failed to do so with the tool set to a PIC16F1847. But it was successful when changed to a PIC16F88. However that means for one, that the configuration bits and ID in the HEX file are set to an F88 not an F1847 (and there are numerous differences). So I'm afraid that even if you could attempt a re-flash to an F1847 with your dump file it wouldn't work properly.

 

Edit: I've attached some files to look at, one is a shot of my config bit settings in FlowCode, success and failure messages in MPLAB IPE, excerpts from the F1847 and F88 data sheets showing the config bit usage and definitions, and the original version 1.0 HEX file which you can compare to your dump. The HEX files are ASCII coded so any text editor would work. take a look at the header section between the two HEX files and you'll start to see the problem.

 

Fuji-Man -- Thanks for the kind words. I was just having a bad day, and had attempted multiple recodeing schemes with no success which frustrated me.

TK-II_stuff.zip

Edited December 22, 2015 by mytekcontrols

[+mytek]

You know I had this funny thought

 

The PIC HEX file is just barely over 36K, and is coded in ASCII. I wonder if it would be possible to create a small Atari 8 program that when placed in an ATR image file along with the HEX file you wish to flash (and a DOS loader) could be made to use one of the joystick ports to program a PIC through the ICSP connection?

 

 

EDIT: most all of the components shown in this diagram are not needed if the chip will be reprogrammed stand-alone.

 

The LVP (Low Voltage Programming) pin is not required or recommended, so that leaves only 5 connections. PGD (serial program data) and PGC (serial program clock) are at 5 volt logic levels. Vpp needs to be taken up to 13 VDC to initiate the programming (flashing) process.

 

The joystick "switch" inputs can be set individually to input or output giving us GND to +5 V logic levels. Since we need +13 V for Vpp, and it doesn't require any current (voltage level sense only), one of the joystick pins could possibly be used to feed a voltage tripler circuit, and if needed clamp the output to 13 V with a Zener diode. If this proves too much for the output port connection, then have it turn on a single transistor to Vpp from a tripler circuit fed directly from the + 5 V supply connection on the joystick port.

 

EDIT: This circuit might not work because it requires a floating ground.

 

 

EDIT: A pulsed DC 555 based tripler might work from 5 Vdc, or possibly even create this directly from a pulsed output port on the joystick.

 

 

Since the Hex file is suppose to contain all the information required by the PIC chip, it would seem like a clocked serial transfer program should do the trick. Could make for an interesting project.

 

- Michael

Edited December 22, 2015 by mytekcontrols

[Van]

You know I had this funny thought

 

The PIC HEX file is just barely over 36K, and is coded in ASCII. I wonder if it would be possible to create a small Atari 8 program that when placed in an ATR image file along with the HEX file you wish to flash (and a DOS loader) could be made to use one of the joystick ports to program a PIC through the ICSP connection?

 

 

EDIT: most all of the components shown in this diagram are not needed if the chip will be reprogrammed stand-alone.

 

The LVP (Low Voltage Programming) pin is not required or recommended, so that leaves only 5 connections. PGD (serial program data) and PGC (serial program clock) are at 5 volt logic levels. Vpp needs to be taken up to 13 VDC to initiate the programming (flashing) process.

 

The joystick "switch" inputs can be set individually to input or output giving us GND to +5 V logic levels. Since we need +13 V for Vpp, and it doesn't require any current (voltage level sense only), one of the joystick pins could possibly be used to feed a voltage tripler circuit, and if needed clamp the output to 13 V with a Zener diode. If this proves too much for the output port connection, then have it turn on a single transistor to Vpp from a tripler circuit fed directly from the + 5 V supply connection on the joystick port.

 

EDIT: This circuit might not work because it requires a floating ground.

 

 

EDIT: A pulsed DC 555 based tripler might work from 5 Vdc, or possibly even create this directly from a pulsed output port on the joystick.

 

 

Since the Hex file is suppose to contain all the information required by the PIC chip, it would seem like a clocked serial transfer program should do the trick. Could make for an interesting project.

 

- Michael

I do believe that the Vpp for the newer 'F1847 (and others in this line) is something like 9V Max, hence the reason older programming HW is incompatible.

But yea, It should be possible to use the A8 as a serial programmer. Just have to maintain the timing specs.

Yogi

Just another thought, there are charge pump chips like the Max232 that could be used.

Edited December 23, 2015 by Van

[+mytek]

I do believe that the Vpp for the newer 'F1847 (and others in this line) is something like 9V Max, hence the reason older programming HW is incompatible.

But yea, It should be possible to use the A8 as a serial programmer. Just have to maintain the timing specs.

Yogi

 

You are absolutely correct, 9 volts it is. That makes things a little easier, just need to double the Logic Voltage, and factoring in semiconductor losses it should be very close to 9 Vdc. Of course by the time this project actually got launched, other solutions will likely have presented themselves

 

But just in case someone is curious here are the Programming Specs for the PIC16F1847: LINK

 

- Michael

[Stephen J. Carden]

 

That really depends on what you like... meaning the feel of the keys for one. As for compatibility issues, thus far I haven't found any keyboards that don't work properly with the TK-II (and I have a box full of at least 10 different brands that I've tested, with some dating back quite a few years, and some more recent). Also Steve Carden has tested it with a Kensington 64364 PS/2 "Wireless" keyboard/mouse combo that appears to work quite well, including the mouse (LINK). And here's a picture from that Ebay listing of what you get. Looks real nice, maybe I'll pick one up as well.

 

 

Out of all of my non-wireless keyboards, I like one of the DELL's, also an E-Machines one, and for a truly industrial design my IBM Model M. I'll see if I can snap a few pics of the ones I'm talking about.

 

- Michael

I have been testing the Transkey-II and XEGS. The XEGS is simple remove the Atari Keyboard and attach the XEGS PCB and you are up and running. The TransKey-II is a bit more complex and good soldering skills are needed. it requires the removal of the Pokey Chip and then install the Transkey-II PCB and stack the pokey on top and you are ready to go. I have at least two of everything except the TransKey-ii and XEGS boards. But the transkey is as good or maybe even better than the AKI. The AKI has software bugs in it that I corrected in the KRH Run. so the KRH and Transkey-II are the same except for the mouse. if you need a mouse then go with the TransKey-II. For people like me I do not care about the mouse so I do not need it and either keyboard upgrade work well. Michael is sending me some upgrades to the TransKey-II and I will keep everyone informed. For myself I have an Atari 130xe installed into a PC Tower Case. it has in it:

 

Ultimate 1 Meg

Side 2

Stereo Pokey

SIO2PC USB Version

VBXE XE version

IDE Plus 2.0

Wireless Keyboard

8550 Scan Converter to translate RGB to VGA.

 

I have at least one and in most cases 2 or more of all the hardware upgrades since 2000. I have most of the ones that came out between 1985 ==> 2000. Currently ILS has a Keyboard project designed to work with the Stereo Pokey Upgrade. So Between Mike and ILS there is a keyboard upgrade for you. As far as I can tell this is the only time that two keyboard upgrades have come out at the same time. And Yes I use a wireless keyboard with my Atari hooked to a 53 inch LCD Tv/ SVGA Monitor that LG sells. It is a very nice setup.

 

http://www.realdos.net

 

Take Care and Atari Rules!

Steve