Is it possible to actually become good at Checkered Flag?

[Lost Dragon]

Having never owned a Jaguar CD, nor been a fan of Basket Ball, it was'nt until the PS1 era i actually tried any of High Voltage Softwares games.Poor UK reviews of Ruiner Pinball put me off that, i was under impression that Pinball Fantasies was the better game?.

As for Dactyl Joust-All i have to go on is still shots and a nice looking YouTube Video.No offense to Jag Chris, but personally i'm of the belief you cannot simply go off video...

I own GC Star Wars:Rogue Squadron III, it looks gorgeous, but plays like a dog in places and so has had very little playtime, but if i rated it from a video of it running....

Ditto for Lair on PS3, technically fantastic, 1080P from an early PS3 title to boot, but it's critically flawed in so many ways.The bloody Dragon controls like a depressed sack of flour...

We'd honestly of needed to have had a proper finished (or nigh on finished, leaked out to net) version to playtest at length to judge if the game was anything more than a potentially impressive 3D Engine.

Edited November 1, 2015 by Lost Dragon

[Bill Loguidice]

Well, some people judge ATD harshly for Blue Lightning, but generally just those who remembered and love the hit Lynx version. I never played the lynx version before I played BL on the Jag, so I was more forgiving of the game. I did think they could have made the sprites less card-board cut--out looking, but thought the artwork on those sprites was good and I really enjoyed the game. Of course later on I did own and play the Lynx version, and can see why people axed the Jag version so harshly.

 

Let's assume for a moment that your premise is correct and that SOME people judge Blue Lightning on the Jaguar harshly because of the quality Lynx version. If the Lynx version never existed, wouldn't Blue Lightning on Jaguar be judged just as harshly (cutting out the middle man as it were)? I mean, I can't think of any redeeming qualities about it (and that includes the artwork on the sprites that you mention).

[Gunstar]

 

Let's assume for a moment that your premise is correct and that SOME people judge Blue Lightning on the Jaguar harshly because of the quality Lynx version. If the Lynx version never existed, wouldn't Blue Lightning on Jaguar be judged just as harshly (cutting out the middle man as it were)? I mean, I can't think of any redeeming qualities about it (and that includes the artwork on the sprites that you mention).

So then your assuming most feel the way you do. I don't. When it comes to art, it's definitely mere opinion. And as I said, I'd never played the Lynx version, and YES, I very much enjoyed the Jag version, as did a bunch of non-jag owning college friends back in the day, with all the other great jag games, BL was the one that most of them wanted to play back then...and these weren't non-gamers, they owned Genesis with SegaCD's and 32X's and Super NES's, etc. They were big-time gamers and were all blown away by Blue lightning. That's MY premise. Me and my Jag&Jag CD were THE SHIT amongst gamers on my campus. This was before anyone had Saturns and PSX's of course. Most of us were poor college students that couldn't afford to run out and by the next gen of consoles at full release prices. Two of my friends were rich, and so they had the new Sega CD and 32X's and they did plan on selling those and getting Jag's based upon their experience with my Jag and Blue lighting( and AvP, Tempest, Doom, etc.), but ended up getting Saturn's and PSX's because it was so hard to find Jaguar's at retail in our area and the other systems were there. I got my Jag stuff because I used my college book money and then just borrowed books from my girl friends.

 

by the way, please don't mistake my use of capitals as any type of anger or whatever, it's just a lot easier than changing back and forth between italics.

Edited November 1, 2015 by Gunstar

[Bill Loguidice]

So then your assuming most feel the way you do. I don't. When it comes to art, it's definitely mere opinion. And as I said, I'd never played the Lynx version, and YES, I very much enjoyed the Jag version, as did a bunch of non-jag owning college friends back in the day, with all the other great jag games, BL was the one that most of them wanted to play back then...and these weren't non-gamers, they owned Genesis with SegaCD's and 32X's and Super NES's, etc. They were big-time gamers and were all blown away by Blue lightning. That's MY premise. Me and my Jag&Jag CD were THE SHIT amongst gamers on my campus. This was before anyone had Saturns and PSX's of course. Most of us were poor college students that couldn't afford to run out and by the next gen of consoles at full release prices. Two of my friends were rich, and so they had the new Sega CD and 32X's and they did plan on selling those and getting Jag's based upon their experience with my Jag and Blue lighting( and AvP, Tempest, Doom, etc.), but ended up getting Saturn's and PSX's because it was so hard to find Jaguar's at retail in our area and the other systems were there. I got my Jag stuff because I used my college book money and then just borrowed books from my girl friends.

 

by the way, please don't mistake my use of capitals as any type of anger or whatever, it's just a lot easier than changing back and forth between italics.

 

Yes, I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of people believe Blue Lightning on Jaguar stinks, period, with no qualifiers or influences from the quality of other games. That's also the first time that I've ever heard anyone anywhere be "blown away" by Blue Lightning in a positive way. I think it's safe to say that you can find anyone who likes what are almost universally considered dreadful games, and I think for very good reasons (the part about them being dreadful games, not necessarily why someone might like them). I think at this point the only game we still need to hear someone profess their love for is Superman 64, and I suspect that's coming any day now.

Edited November 1, 2015 by Bill Loguidice

[Gunstar]

 

Yes, I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of people believe Blue Lightning on Jaguar stinks, period, with no qualifiers or influences from the quality of other games. That's also the first time that I've ever heard anyone anywhere be "blown away" by Blue Lightning in a positive way. I think it's safe to say that you can find anyone who likes what are almost universally considered dreadful games, and I think for very good reasons (the part about them being dreadful games, not necessarily why someone might like them). I think at this point the only game we still need to hear someone profess their love for is Superman 64, and I suspect that's coming any day now.

Well to each their own. I know BL isn't a great game, but my friends were impressed at the time, and though I enjoy playing the game, I will admit that I didn't understand, back in '95. why my friends were so impressed with the game, even more than the Jag's real killer apps, but they were. I always thought, from day one that it could have been better, but I never thought it was dreadful and I still enjoy playing it today. But the good thing is that I really don't care if the "majority" thinks it's total crap as from life experience I've found the "majority" are usually wrong. as there are a lot of ignorant people in the world that will believe any BS as long as it comes from so-called "authority." And all that matters to me is I enjoy the game and the "majority" can kiss off.

 

Besides all of that, the point of the discussion here, before you chimed in, wasn't if Blue Lightning was a terrible game or not, but if people wrote ATD off as a poor development house based on BL. But once again, my signature below rings true, as you've proven by going off on a tangent about BL and pointing out yet another "dreadful" game to discredit and by association further discredit the Jag. It always comes back to the Jag's so-called terrible games and how stupid and delusional those of us are that like them, instead of focusing more on the Jag's good games and strengths.

Edited November 1, 2015 by Gunstar

[phoenixdownita]

Well, let's assume for a moment that Bill is wrong and most people instead think that BL is "mind-blowing" then it would always be on the top list of Jag games so far so to justify the purchase of the JagCD.

Given the fact that this "alternative universe" is not the one we are living in it is safe to assume Bill point of view is shared by most in the universe we actually live in, which makes it THE point of view for MOST that BL is a stinker.

I played it a couple of times and I was so happy that I didn't have to pay for it, as a pack in game for the Jag CD technology was/is suicidal.

I understand that "most != everyone" so someone that likes it does exist but he should realize that fact too and concede that "for most" BL is close to garbage.

Growing up, every time I had a sort of stand-out opinion that I tried to justify as "the one for most" my mom would always remind me that that was not the case to which I tended to reply that "each one has his own taste in the matter", and she always replied "so says the cat licking its butt" .... I used to get so mad at her then I realized what her intent was and stopped thinking my opinion was qualitatively more important than the rest, it didn't stop me from liking weird or bizarre things but I was no more the "righteous one" in my endeavor while the masses "just didn't get it".

Edited November 1, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[Bill Loguidice]

Well to each their own. I know BL isn't a great game, but my friends were impressed at the time, and though I enjoy playing the game, I will admit that I didn't understand, back in '95. why my friends were so impressed with the game, even more than the Jag's real killer apps, but they were. I always thought, from day one that it could have been better, but I never thought it was dreadful and I still enjoy playing it today. But the good thing is that I really don't care if the "majority" thinks it's total crap as from life experience I've found the "majority" are usually wrong. as there are a lot of ignorant people in the world that will believe any BS as long as it comes from so-called "authority." And all that matters to me is I enjoy the game and the "majority" can kiss off.

 

Besides all of that, the point of the discussion here, before you chimed in, wasn't if Blue Lightning was a terrible game or not, but if people wrote ATD off as a poor development house based on BL. But once again, my signature below rings true, as you've proven by going off on a tangent about BL and pointing out yet another "dreadful" game to discredit and by association further discredit the Jag. It always comes back to the Jag's so-called terrible games and how stupid and delusional those of us are that like them, instead of focusing more on the Jag's good games and strengths.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, that everyone is free to like what they want for whatever reasons they want. That's obvious and something that I think we all agree on. I've also said in the past that I can understand why others love games I really don't care for (I typically cart out Super Mario 64 as an example of a game I really don't care for, but can absolutely see why others may love it and I acknowledge its status as a classic). I also think the reverse is true, that I think it's healthy to like a game, while still acknowledging why others may think it's awful. I think you're acknowledging that with BL. It doesn't make the majority opinion wrong or the majority stupid. Often times there are very good reasons for the majority to think what they do. Being an outlier does not necessarily make you right. Either way, ultimately I don't think we're that far off here.

 

As for the discussion taking a turn, that's what happens when opinions on things are put forth. That's how forum discussions are supposed to work. The topic deviated into BL, so I responded to that deviation.

 

It's awesome you had fun with or liked a game so universally reviled. It also does make one question the capabilities of the development team, but knowing the larger story, it's clear that the failings were not all their own doing. The development environment (holistically speaking) for the Jaguar had a way of bringing out the worst in developers and publishers.

[+madman]

This thread is turning into best of material. Brilliant stuff here.

[JagChris]

As for HVS making a stinker of a game WMCJ is up to debate. However that was Fox Interactives game who oversaw that. Pochanayon did what they said.

 

Ruiner pinball is mediocre to bad.

 

But I'm not talking about mistakes and failures. I'm talking about effort and care. You can still fail sometimes when trying your best.

 

It's ludicrous to cite Fox being impressed with Rebellions Jaguar AvP work as proof to what kind of company they are. That's insane when all the evidence and testimony suggests they didn't show that attention to detail on their own. They were forced to by Atari.

[Lost Dragon]

JagChris, please read the statement again, in full:

 

' Rebellion had showed 20th Century Fox at the CES the game, they were really impressed and up until that point no-one had really done justice to it's licences'

 

it's really as simple as that until then, no-one had done justice to it's licences....

 

 

Up until AVP on Jaguar we'd had GB and SNES AVP (MegaDrive version planned) and AVP from Capcom (Arcade), plus misc Alien/s, Predator games on 8 Bit micro/Console

 

Rebellion were the 1st to say they did'nt want another 2D game (which is what Atari wanted) but thought they could do the franchise far better 'justice' by their concept and it was that, along with the attention to detail in getting the look and feel of the game right, that impressed Fox.

 

You've brought up Rebellion not watching the films, which is fine, but you have i assume played Konami's Aliens (Arcade)....just how far into fantasy did they push that?.

 

At least Rebellion stayed true to the concept, did'nt mess with the various species.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Lost Dragon

[Lost Dragon]

Oh and please, lets not throw around claims like 'ludicrous' when in fact James "Purple" Hampton...the Producer of Alien Vs. Predator, not only explains why Fox might not of been impressed by other developers plans for earlier AVP Games:

 

The Lynx people who had already started on the project (Images Software) had been told to follow the script of the Activision game, which was kind of a Final Fight clone...'

 

 

But also praises Rebellion themselves:

 

Purple:

It wasn't until February of '93 that the AvP contract was assigned to Rebellion, and that's when the project really started kicking into gear. Before that, the Lynx game was leading the way in terms of the direction the project was going to take, but when Rebellion came in they really got involved in the overall feel of the game, working with the art and so on. At first, their people had to spend a few months just learning the system and what it could and couldn't do.

 

http://justclaws.atari.org/jagudome/inter2.html

Edited November 3, 2015 by Lost Dragon

[+CyranoJ]

Oh and please, lets not throw around claims like 'ludicrous' when in fact James "Purple" Hampton...the Producer of Alien Vs. Predator.

 

 

It's Jagchris. Take it with less than a pinch of salt:

 

"That involved me working alongside the designer of the "Alien" HR Giger to bring his work to the computer screen."

 

"It was a great opportunity to develop on an exciting new machine with movies that I really loved. I studied the movies solid for many months before coming up with a game design."

 

http://alive.atari.org/alive8/andreww.php

Edited November 3, 2015 by CyranoJ

[JagChris]

 

It's Jagchris. Take it with less than a pinch of salt:

 

"That involved me working alongside the designer of the "Alien" HR Giger to bring his work to the computer screen."

 

"It was a great opportunity to develop on an exciting new machine with movies that I really loved. I studied the movies because Atari forced me to watch them solid for many months before coming up with a game design."

 

http://alive.atari.org/alive8/andreww.php

 

Fixed that for the both of you.

Edited November 5, 2015 by JagChris

[+CyranoJ]

Whatever, dude, whatever. There can't be much daylight at your location now.

 

Far be it a problem to let facts get in the way of things for you (again)

Edited November 5, 2015 by CyranoJ

[ggn]

 

Fixed that for the both of you.

 

Do you work at Apple by the way? After they lost Steve Jobs they require a new reality distortion field generator!

[Lost Dragon]

Thread bump, but regarding Rebellion/lack of prior knowledge on the Alien films:

 

If you look at the Infogrammes' Sheffield team,who coded Wacky Races on the Dreamcast:

 

Tony Crowther (lead coder) had only watched 2X 2 hr video's of the cartoon, where as Mark Dimond (artist) admitted he'd hardly watched any of the cartoon, other than to refer back to it for art styles now and then and if he had based the game around the cartoon (source material) religiously, it would of been a very 'empty' game, as he found the cartoon a crude and barren affair.

 

 

Warner provided the team with all the reference material they needed.

 

So, the source material is sometimes little more than a starting point/reference tool, for the game based on the licence, you did'nt have to be overly familar with it.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Lost Dragon

[Bill Loguidice]

Thread bump, but regarding Rebellion/lack of prior knowledge on the Alien films:

 

If you look at the Infogrammes' Sheffield team,who coded Wacky Races on the Dreamcast:

 

Tony Crowther (lead coder) had only watched 2X 2 hr video's of the cartoon, where as Mark Dimond (artist) admitted he'd hardly watched any of the cartoon, other than to refer back to it for art styles now and then and if he had based the game around the cartoon (source material) religiously, it would of been a very 'empty' game, as he found the cartoon a crude and barren affair.

 

 

Warner provided the team with all the reference material they needed.

 

So, the source material is sometimes little more than a starting point/reference tool, for the game based on the licence, you did'nt have to be overly familar with it.

 

I would say in the case of the formulaic Wacky Races, watching four hours of the cartoon, plus having source material to pull from, would be all you would ever need to nail a game based on it (which they did; the only major issue that I ever had with it was the insane difficulty ramp later in the game, which made me stop playing). In other words, I don't think you could be any more prepared in that case.

[Lost Dragon]

I fully agree Bill, my point is that in cases like this, developers can look at the source material once a project lands in their laps and decide what aspects are best suited to a game based on it, rather than having been overly familar with it prior to getting the contract, let alone sticking strictly too it.

It was the same with Probe's Alien 3.Mirrorsoft landed the contract as film was being produced, gave the game to Probe to develop, with tight deadlines, so MD was leading format, sticking closely to the film script did not make for an action-packed game, so Mirrorsoft asked Fox if they could use weapons from the 1st 2 films, Fox agreed, cue a game loosely based on the film.

Fox also allowed Probe's graphics artists on-set and they spent hours looking at the sets and the Aliens, so again, Fox provided pretty much everything developers asked for.

You did not need to be overly familar with films themselves when Fox were happy to supply material for you.

[+thegoldenband]

I would say in the case of the formulaic Wacky Races, watching four hours of the cartoon, plus having source material to pull from, would be all you would ever need to nail a game based on it (which they did; the only major issue that I ever had with it was the insane difficulty ramp later in the game, which made me stop playing). In other words, I don't think you could be any more prepared in that case.

 

Wacky Races gets brutally tough at a certain point -- but right around the same time, if you can just survive one or two really tough races, you get a couple power-ups that make a big difference.

 

At least that was the case with the Creepy Coupe; some reviewers advise against using it since it's so tall and can obscure your vision at closer zoom levels, but it gets some very powerful upgrades over time. Once I had those, victory was a matter of technique, rather than needing to overcome ridiculous odds.

 

That was a fun game -- sometimes frustrating, but fun -- and one of the few racing titles I've ever played to 100% completion. You're giving me nostalgia for last year!