Is it possible to actually become good at Checkered Flag?

[+xucaen]

Meanie.

[+madman]

I don't really have any issues with Checkered flag. It's hard, but it's a good game.

Serious question: If you think Checkered Flag is a good game, what do you consider a bad game?

[+xucaen]

Serious question: If you think Checkered Flag is a good game, what do you consider a bad game?

 

 

For example, Custer's Revenge. I wouldn't even want to hold that cartridge in my hands.

[Zerosquare]

But the real question is: which one is better Checkered Flag or Club Drive?

If you can find it for cheap, Club Drive is so ridiculous it is actually funny, like watching a Z movie.

 

Checkered Flag is just boringly bad.

[+madman]

For example, Custer's Revenge. I wouldn't even want to hold that cartridge in my hands.

I thought it was implied, but I guess not, which Jaguar games do you consider to be bad?

[NeoGeoNinja]

But the real question is: which one is better Checkered Flag or Club Drive?

If you can find it for cheap, Club Drive is so ridiculous it is actually funny, like watching a Z movie.

 

Now then (take note... Gunstar!), and I've gone on record saying this elsewhere on AA before now; Club Drive can be engaging fun in 2P mode.

 

I introduced a friend to 2P Powerball months ago, and we spent a good hour or two playing it. Tag is also decent but, for me, the most fun is with the Powerball mode. The desperation to be first to the Powerball, apparently, can be quite intense.

 

That moment when you both dash madly to get the ball ahead; and there can be only one! As soon as it's collected, the map displays the next Powerball directly BEHIND you both?! You both reverse towards the flashing icon rabidly but... what's this? The flashing icon (i.e. Powerball) is actually up that narrow ramp and on the table surface DIRECTLY above you both?! Anyone who's played Powerball properly KNOWS that scenario

 

FYI... no such 'real' fun to be had with Checkered Flag

Edited October 28, 2015 by NeoGeoNinja

[ZylonBane]

Serious question: If you think Checkered Flag is a good game, what do you consider a bad game?

 

Bubsy.

[Austin]

 

Now then (take note... Gunstar!), and I've gone on record saying this elsewhere on AA before now; Club Drive can be engaging fun in 2P mode.

 

I introduced a friend to 2P Powerball months ago, and we spent a good hour or two playing it. Tag is also decent but, for me, the most fun is with the Powerball mode. The desperation to be first to the Powerball, apparently, can be quite intense.

 

That moment when you both dash madly to get the ball ahead; and there can be only one! As soon as it's collected, the map displays the next Powerball directly BEHIND you both?! You both reverse towards the flashing icon rabidly but... what's this? The flashing icon (i.e. Powerball) is actually up that narrow ramp and on the table surface DIRECTLY above you both?! Anyone who's played Powerball properly KNOWS that scenario

 

FYI... no such 'real' fun to be had with Checkered Flag

 

I'm of the same mindset when it comes to Club Drive. I don't care much for the race mode, but when you do split-screen on Tag or Powerball, it can be a ton of fun. Checkered Flag offers no sort of enjoyment or even flexibility in gameplay for that matter.

[LianneJaguar64]

I will say that I think Syndicate is a pretty crap game to put on Jaguar... It's a good game, of course, but it REALLY needs a keyboard and mouse if you're going to do a straight conversion...

Edited October 29, 2015 by LianneJaguar64

[Gunstar]

I think Syndicate is a perfect example of a game that can be ported from the computer to the Jag well, with full use of the controller keypad. Just try playing Syndicate on the 3DO or Syndicate Wars on the PS1 and you will see conversions in dire need of a keyboard.

[Gunstar]

 

Now then (take note... Gunstar!), and I've gone on record saying this elsewhere on AA before now; Club Drive can be engaging fun in 2P mode.

 

I introduced a friend to 2P Powerball months ago, and we spent a good hour or two playing it. Tag is also decent but, for me, the most fun is with the Powerball mode. The desperation to be first to the Powerball, apparently, can be quite intense.

 

That moment when you both dash madly to get the ball ahead; and there can be only one! As soon as it's collected, the map displays the next Powerball directly BEHIND you both?! You both reverse towards the flashing icon rabidly but... what's this? The flashing icon (i.e. Powerball) is actually up that narrow ramp and on the table surface DIRECTLY above you both?! Anyone who's played Powerball properly KNOWS that scenario

 

FYI... no such 'real' fun to be had with Checkered Flag

OMG! Leave it to you to attempt to call me out on a game I DO think sucks completely and totally, e.g. Club Drive...and YOU think it had redeeming qualities...see, you can be delusional too, if you think that's what I am...

Edited October 30, 2015 by Gunstar

[JagChris]

Rebellion didn't suck; Checkered Flag is clearly another case of Atari management forcing Rebellion's deadline and rushing CF to market before it should have been released. AvP and Skyhammer prove, IMHO, that Rebellion was an excellent developer. Two of my favorite Jag titles.

 

Anyway, what the heck does Rebellion have to do with Black Ice/White Noise and this B.J. West interview?!? I've never heard anywhere that they were involved with it in any way, shape or form. Did you mean to post this misguided comment in the CF thread?

 

Why yes, yes I did.

 

Rebellion sucked. They didn't have any work ethic. Surely you must know of the Lance Lewis interview talking about what Atari had to do to get them to do a decent job? I remember reading the fanzines back in the day. AvP sent back to Rebellion time and time again because Atari didn't want to pull a Trevor McFur with it.

 

They just didn't give a shit. We got lucky with AvP.

 

This is Atari we were talking about here. Contracts going out to the lowest bidder.

[Gunstar]

 

 

Why yes, yes I did.

 

Rebellion sucked. They didn't have any work ethic. Surely you must know of the Lance Lewis interview talking about what Atari had to do to get them to do a decent job? I remember reading the fanzines back in the day. AvP sent back to Rebellion time and time again because Atari didn't want to pull a Trevor McFur with it.

 

They just didn't give a shit. We got lucky with AvP.

 

This is Atari we were talking about here. Contracts going out to the lowest bidder.

 

I read you now. I was looking at the end result of AvP and Skyhammer which I think are both prime examples of good development on the Jaguar. Though I find it hard to believe it was due to Atari's quality standards that got those good end results, since most Atari releases, not all-most, looked rushed and a disregard for quality standards. Like Trevor, Club Drive and Checkered Flag, though the first two are in-house development while CF was farmed out to Rebellion. But I also look at Rebellion's POST Atari releases which are all high-quality, so I still find it hard to believe it was Rebellion with the poor work ethic, just because Lance Lewis says so...I really still blame Atari upper management, e.g., the Tramiels, for the Jaguar's fate and rushed, half-baked titles for at least 25% of the releases.

 

And now I'm a bit more confused...did you quote me here from a post in the B.J. West thread or was I the one replying in the wrong thread...(goes back to other thread to check)

 

Any way, you can have the opinion, backed by Mr. Lewis that Rebellion sucked and I will continue with the opinion that it was Atari upper management responsible for all that sucked.

 

Oh, and by the way, in the case of Rebellion, Atari SOUGHT THEM OUT, Rebellion was not brought on due to lowest bid.

 

I have an interview right here titled 'Inside Rebellion' From Die Hard Game Fan magazine; and I quote:

 

GF-"How come you got involved with the Jaguar so early?" JK (of Rebellion)-"Atari contacted us about our previous game, Eye of the Storm on the PC, because they were impressed with the speed of it's 3D engine. They asked us if we could work on their new machine and at first we thought they might mean the Falcon. Luckily, it proved to be the Jaguar! I'd done Star Raiders on the 800 ages ago, and some stuff for the ST, but the Jaguar was naturally a much more exciting proposition."

 

And did Lance Lewis happen to mention in his interview how Rebellion had to fight tooth-and-nail with Atari for minuscule development budget money just to stay afloat while developing 4 different titles for the Jag? (AvP, CF, Skyhammer and LOTUD) and how Atari never did give them final payments due for ANY of their games? That's right, no payment for AvP or CF and Rebellion finally stopped developing Skyhammer at 99% completion and LOTUD at 50% completion until Atari paid them for the first two games that were already released over a year before? I bet not. I found all that out from a later interview that was done after Songbird released Skyhammer. Unfortunately I can't find that interview at the moment and don't recall who did it.

 

Atari did that time and again to most of it's developers. The people who did Zero 5 (forget who ATM and I don't have the game any longer to check) said they were totally astonished to see it released by Telegames because they never got paid for it and never sent Atari the final build because they held it back for payment.

 

Personally, I'll take the word of Rebellion, as backed up by other developers too, over a mere play-tester and Atari management any day of the week.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Gunstar

[LianneJaguar64]

I read you now. I was looking at the end result of AvP and Skyhammer which I think are both prime examples of good development on the Jaguar. Though I find it hard to believe it was due to Atari's quality standards that got those good end results, since most Atari releases, not all-most, looked rushed and a disregard for quality standards. Like Trevor, Club Drive and Checkered Flag, though the first two are in-house development while CF was farmed out to Rebellion. But I also look at Rebellion's POST Atari releases which are all high-quality, so I still find it hard to believe it was Rebellion with the poor work ethic, just because Lance Lewis says so...I really still blame Atari upper management, e.g., the Tramiels, for the Jaguar's fate and rushed, half-baked titles for at least 25% of the releases.

 

And now I'm a bit more confused...did you quote me here from a post in the B.J. West thread or was I the one replying in the wrong thread...(goes back to other thread to check)

 

Any way, you can have the opinion, backed by Mr. Lewis that Rebellion sucked and I will continue with the opinion that it was Atari upper management responsible for all that sucked.

 

Oh, and by the way, in the case of Rebellion, Atari SOUGHT THEM OUT, Rebellion was not brought on due to lowest bid.

 

I have an interview right here titled 'Inside Rebellion' From Die Hard Game Fan magazine; and I quote:

 

GF-"How come you got involved with the Jaguar so early?" JK (of Rebellion)-"Atari contacted us about our previous game, Eye of the Storm on the PC, because they were impressed with the speed of it's 3D engine. They asked us if we could work on their new machine and at first we thought they might mean the Falcon. Luckily, it proved to be the Jaguar! I'd done Star Raiders on the 800 ages ago, and some stuff for the ST, but the Jaguar was naturally a much more exciting proposition."

 

And did Lance Lewis happen to mention in his interview how Rebellion had to fight tooth-and-nail with Atari for minuscule development budget money just to stay afloat while developing 4 different titles for the Jag? (AvP, CF, Skyhammer and LOTUD) and how Atari never did give them final payments due for ANY of their games? That's right, no payment for AvP or CF and Rebellion finally stopped developing Skyhammer at 99% completion and LOTUD at 50% completion until Atari paid them for the first two games that were already released over a year before? I bet not. I found all that out from a later interview that was done after Songbird released Skyhammer. Unfortunately I can't find that interview at the moment and don't recall who did it.

 

Atari did that time and again to most of it's developers. The people who did Zero 5 (forget who ATM and I don't have the game any longer to check) said they were totally astonished to see it released by Telegames because they never got paid for it and never sent Atari the final build because they held it back for payment.

 

Personally, I'll take the word of Rebellion, as backed up by other developers too, over a mere play-tester and Atari management any day of the week.

If I interpreted Mr. Lewis' words correctly, he actually said 'the game wasn't very good' (regarding AVP), not that it was of a low quality in other areas. He just criticised the simplicity of the gameplay... Which would mostly speak in Rebellion's favour, especially seeing as they hadn't seen the films... And that's an opinion... He may not have liked it but doesn't mean is wasn't good...

[JagChris]

If I interpreted Mr. Lewis' words correctly, he actually said 'the game wasn't very good' (regarding AVP), not that it was of a low quality in other areas. He just criticised the simplicity of the gameplay... Which would mostly speak in Rebellion's favour, especially seeing as they hadn't seen the films... And that's an opinion... He may not have liked it but doesn't mean is wasn't good...

 

 

And therein lies a good chunk of my point. They hadn't seen the films. THEY WERE NOT GOING TO SEE THE FILMS. Atari forced them to.

This shows how much they did not care.

 

I will always believe we got lucky with AvP. Still shows signs of slop. Such as the shoulder cannons shots looking nothing like the movies or even moving in any way remotely like the shoulder cannon discharges in the movies. You can damn near catch up to it once it fires. And it's a big sloppy blob.

 

Even the PC version they did the shoulder cannon just has a white dot shooting out.

 

Was Skhammer contracted by Atari or was it Rebellions game for the Jaguar Atari was going to publish?

[+CyranoJ]

And therein lies a good chunk of my point. They hadn't seen the films. THEY WERE NOT GOING TO SEE THE FILMS. Atari forced them to.

This shows how much they did not care.

 

Well, you didn't attend any of the meetings for the creation of this forum software and look at your output. So I guess you make a fair point.

[Gunstar]

 

 

And therein lies a good chunk of my point. They hadn't seen the films. THEY WERE NOT GOING TO SEE THE FILMS. Atari forced them to.

This shows how much they did not care.

 

I will always believe we got lucky with AvP. Still shows signs of slop. Such as the shoulder cannons shots looking nothing like the movies or even moving in any way remotely like the shoulder cannon discharges in the movies. You can damn near catch up to it once it fires. And it's a big sloppy blob.

 

Even the PC version they did the shoulder cannon just has a white dot shooting out.

 

Was Skhammer contracted by Atari or was it Rebellions game for the Jaguar Atari was going to publish?

Nothing against Mr. Lance Lewis, but he was only a PLAY TESTER that got paid minimum wage. How much he actually knew that was going on at Rebellion or Atari or between Atari and Rebellion is highly questionable in my book. As I said, believe who you want too, and their opinion and perspective and I'll believe who I want too. But as far as I am concerned Rebellion is the best developers the Jaguar had except for Minter and Llammasoft. And any short comings of their games were due to Atari's complete and utter mis-management in every way shape and form, inside and out. Given proper backing even the Jag's best games would have been better if the developers had the time and money they should have had that Atari never gave them. Nearly every developer that worked with Atari has stated this over and over again. I will continue to believe the bottom line is Atari management and not the developer's or the Jaguar's hardware that was responsible for the Jaguar not seeing it's full potential.

[JagChris]

Nothing against Mr. Lance Lewis, but he was only a PLAY TESTER that got paid minimum wage. How much he actually knew that was going on at Rebellion or Atari or between Atari and Rebellion is highly questionable in my book. As I said, believe who you want too, and their opinion and perspective and I'll believe who I want too. But as far as I am concerned Rebellion is the best developers the Jaguar had except for Minter and Llammasoft. And any short comings of their games were due to Atari's complete and utter mis-management in every way shape and form, inside and out. Given proper backing even the Jag's best games would have been better if the developers had the time and money they should have had that Atari never gave them. Nearly every developer that worked with Atari has stated this over and over again. I will continue to believe the bottom line is Atari management and not the developer's or the Jaguar's hardware that was responsible for the Jaguar not seeing it's full potential.

 

I have no idea how much Lance got paid. It's odd that someone would make something up like that. Then there's the evidence. Rebellion doing CF, one guy working for Ateque did World Tour Racing. Lee Briggs was able to pull it off, by himself with the same kind of support.

 

I am right there with you about Atari and their mismanagement. But that's no excuse for not doing your best. The evidence combined with the testimony for me closes the case.

 

As for them being the best developers, I disagree. I believe they were the highest profile developers on the Jaguar. IMO the best developers were High Voltage Software. Easily.

[Gunstar]

 

I have no idea how much Lance got paid. It's odd that someone would make something up like that. Then there's the evidence. Rebellion doing CF, one guy working for Ateque did World Tour Racing. Lee Briggs was able to pull it off, by himself with the same kind of support.

 

I am right there with you about Atari and their mismanagement. But that's no excuse for not doing your best. The evidence combined with the testimony for me closes the case.

 

As for them being the best developers, I disagree. I believe they were the highest profile developers on the Jaguar. IMO the best developers were High Voltage Software. Easily.

High Voltage had a BIG dog of a game in White Men Can't Jump, so they are not immune to poor developments either. But once again, I think that was Atari's fault pushing deadlines and rushing stuff out much sooner than should have been done. All jag development roads lead to Atari and it's amazing the Jag has as many good games as it does...

 

Also, I will attempt to locate the thread I did a few years back where I scanned in a bunch of articles and ads for the Jag, including the interview with Rebellion that I quoted a piece of in that previous post. So you can not only read it and the descriptions they gave of what they were doing, the massive effort, that they not only described but there are photos of physical sculptures and molds, all hand painted, etc., it looks just like a special effects production studio like Industrial Light and Magic or something the way they are doing the stuff, with stop-motion animation, etc. It screams to me personally; MASSIVE EFFORT AND CARE. I'll link it here if and when I can find my old thread.

 

But we can agree to disagree on this one buddy.

Edited November 1, 2015 by Gunstar

[Gunstar]

Here is the scan thread, the second scan is actually the first page of the interview. First link. It will jump to the middle of the thread since I did a search using my handle and "scans," so it's jumping to the first time the word scan is used (this is true with all the links), you'll nee to scroll to the top for the Rebellion article. The other links I just included for the fun of it and for any new comers that might have missed it when I posted it all back in 2008.

 

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/188110-rebellion-interview-scans-circa-1994/?hl=%2Bscans&do=findComment&comment=2379759

 

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/119477-even-more-classic-jaguar-scans-ads/?hl=+scans

 

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/119468-more-atarijaguar-scans-articlesreviews/?hl=%2Bscans&do=findComment&comment=1443235

Edited November 1, 2015 by Gunstar

[Lost Dragon]

You'd have to get views from Jason Kingsley (producer) Andrew Whittaker (A.I), Toby Banfield, Stuart Wilson (Graphics), Justin Rae, Rob Dibley and Mike Beaton (Coding) to get a more balanced and hopefully clearer take on what happened with Jaguar AVP and the realationship/dealings between Atari and Rebellion.

 

Not having seen the films is really little different to those who converted coin-ops to home formats, who'd never played the original, were just given code/graphics from another system to convert.

 

Fact Rebellion hired the USCM Marine costume, were given props from Fox, hand built models of the Predator etc showed they were paying a lot of attention to detail.

 

Plus claim that when Rebellion had showed 20th Century Fox at the CES the game, they were really impressed and up until that point no-no had really done justice to it's licences. (at this point the games A.I had'nt even been coded).

[Lost Dragon]

@Gunstar:

 

This might be the Zero 5 interview your thinking of:

 

Interview with Matthew Gosling of the Caspian Software team:

 

http://justclaws.atari.org/jagudome/zero-view.html

 

If your after more Rebellion/AVP Scans, Computer And Video Games (C+VG) Issue 148/March'94 (AVP on cover)P24-26 are worth checking out...

 

As is Edge Magazines Making Of:AVP a few years back.

 

 

Rebellion should be named and shamed for later AVP games.The 1st on PSP (done in such a short period of time) and the PC/PS3/360 game they did.

 

The Jaguar original and later PC game (original version, not so much the Gold re-release) were fantastic for their time and i say that as a huge Aliens fan.

Edited November 1, 2015 by Lost Dragon

[Gunstar]

Thanks for the link Lost Dragon. in that interview Mr. Gosling talks about how if Atari were so desperate for the cash they could have the $1.50 per sale, but Atari didn't license it or any of the other games to Telegames for the money, they did it because as a part of the reverse merger into JTS Corp., Atari had to show the courts that they were still keeping Atari and Atari interests (Jaguar) viable, and doing a "co-publishing" thing with Telegames was the way they got around it to remain within the law and rules of the reverse merger without having to support the Jaguar themselves. That's why it still has Atari brand on all those Telegames releases. The $1.50 royalty was just to keep it within the legal confines of the court ordered structure of the reverse merger with JTS. So technically and legally, all those Telegames releases are actually official Atari releases and not really post-Atari releases...technically.

 

It was actually the later PC AvP that I was referring too in my praise of post-Atari Rebellion developments. I have never seen or played any of later console stuff they did.

 

I remember drooling over the 'Inside Rebellion' article back in the day, waiting on AvP and LOTU. Besides Avp, LOTU was the most anticipated title for me personally, for the Jaguar. I desperately wanted LOTU for the Jag and am still very disappointed that nothing, even and early Alpha or Beta of the game has surfaced like with Skyhammer.

 

My point here is that almost all development houses have their share of winners and losers, and CF should not be the bar on deciding if Rebellion sucked or not. I look to both AvP and Skyhammer and see an end result of quality and effort, IMO.

Edited November 1, 2015 by Gunstar

[Lost Dragon]

Trust me, you've not missed out much on the bulk of Rebellion's later console work.

 

I still have AVP on PSP and the later PS3 game, both bloody terrible. WW0:Iron Storm on PS2 i liked, they squandered the Judge Dredd potential with Dredd Vs Death (PS2/Xbox in my case), but nailed Rogue Trooper (Xbox).

 

Windows'95 AVP was (for myself) the pinnicle of the AVP games, mainly due to the Xeno A.I routines being so spot-on.

 

Not sure if you played the sequel by Monolith , but whilst it looked far nicer, it lacked the essential atmosphere of Rebellions earlier PC effort.

 

Maybe had Rebellion done a S.E version of AVP for Jaguar CD with freedom to fix earlier flaws/add in enhancements things would of been different?.

 

C.Flag was dire, AVP was a 'Killer App.' for Jaguar, Skyhammer meant to be another showcase title and Legions Of The Undead showed promise.

 

 

People don't judge say A.T.D on Blue Lighting on Jag CD do they?

Edited November 1, 2015 by Lost Dragon

[Gunstar]

Well, some people judge ATD harshly for Blue Lightning, but generally just those who remembered and love the hit Lynx version. I never played the lynx version before I played BL on the Jag, so I was more forgiving of the game. I did think they could have made the sprites less card-board cut--out looking, but thought the artwork on those sprites was good and I really enjoyed the game. Of course later on I did own and play the Lynx version, and can see why people axed the Jag version so harshly. But, no, most people remember ATD rather fondly for Cybermorph and Battlemorph, including myself. Same with High Voltage. JagChris, for example is quite happy to overlook WMCJ, apparently, and declare them to be the best Jag Developers. But to me, Ruiner and Vid-grid are mediocre and WMCJ not quite mediocre (though I actually have fun playing the game more than Ruiner and Vid-grid), and off-hand, ATM, I can't even remember what "great" game High Voltage even released (I'm sure they have one?!?). So I just don't see it from the same perspective as him in the case of Rebellion and High Voltage.

 

edit: Oh, wasn't NBA JAM done by them? I think so...so for me High Voltage has ONE hit game, and it's not even an original title, just a port, though a great port. Sorry, maybe I'd feel different if Dactyl Joust was released, but without it, I just don't see High Voltage as highly as JagChris does, and certainly at most not quite on a par with Rebellion. I suppose we could throw in the BETA version of Fight for Life since high Voltage did that before Atari brought it in-house and re-worked it, but I am pretty sure most people here would say that game doesn't help HV's standing. Am i forgetting some other HV releases?

Edited November 1, 2015 by Gunstar