Dreamers' corner: Did Jaguar show full potential, or not?

[phoenixdownita]

Well, parallax will not give you perspective texturing on 3D walls.

...

Just to point out the obvious, here you mean the polygons that span different Z coordinates, right?

Obviously the layers that are perpendicular to the viewer require no correction (in first approximation), so we are left with the few "walls" that cross the "parallax" layers.

Not sure if it can be done by pre-calculating just a few deformations, the low res of both textures and screen would act as a filter anyway.

 

I am not saying your engine should do it one way or another, just speculating what can be achieved simply with parallax and a few aptly crafted pre-distorted bitmaps.

 

Then again please upload whatever H.E.R.O. 3D demo you have so we can see it in action.

Edited November 24, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[Atlantis]

Two problems with that:

1. While I finally have jag/skunk right by my dev desk, I don't have the vid capture set-up. About a month ago I started looking it up, but it seems those capture set-ups I have seen in past under $50 are only 30-fps devices. Which makes no sense. So, the next cheapest 60-fps thing I found is for $180.

2. How are you going to see 60 fps there ? I need to create a separate benchmark-style scene, where you will be able to visually confirm it is indeed 60 fps - e.g. draw some lines 30 pixels apart and let character and whole scene move twice back and forth in a second, one pixel at a time, thus adding up to 60 fps. That is additional work, but one I started recently.

To start with just show us any video on the game/engine, and later prove the fps stuff. Or maybe that is already done? (Hot link?)

 

I think it would be much easier for you to discuss this, if people had more than words to go on.

 

[GroovyBee]

[phoenixdownita]

So cool.

Interesting how all the "Z crossing walls" are the only ones without textures

Lots of neat tricks.

Edited November 24, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[Bill Loguidice]

Livewire looks great even as-is. About the only thing I can see as missing is some shadowing. Otherwise, fantastic stuff and of course too bad it went unfinished like so many other cool looking Jaguar projects.

VladR did let me see a two year old, very early video of the Hero 3D engine, but that does not as of yet give me a good sense of anything.

[Atlantis]

Cool.
Are you aiming for some game clone here.
I'd like to see this as a plattformer with some cool guy running as PoP, running and shooting in 2 directions like the ship, in tunnels where enemies came out from hatches in the roof and floor. Make no sense to me with a battle ship only able to shoot in two directions, but a platformer from the side would.
Fun hobby there.

[Sporadic]

If a HERO video is not possible at present due to capture equipment etc, why not upload a demo binary showing it off? Then everyone can see it for themselves at 60fps in action on their own hardware.

 

I know for sure if I had something like that, I'd want to get it in the hands of as many Jag owners as possible.

 

But then I'd also share the source so all Jag users could benefit from awesome new games.

[GroovyBee]

Are you aiming for some game clone here.

The game has nothing to do with me. You can read more about it from one of the original team members here :-

 

http://www.leonik.net/dml/sec_lw.py

[VladR]

Just to point out the obvious, here you mean the polygons that span different Z coordinates, right?

Obviously the layers that are perpendicular to the viewer require no correction (in first approximation), so we are left with the few "walls" that cross the "parallax" layers.

Not sure if it can be done by pre-calculating just a few deformations, the low res of both textures and screen would act as a filter anyway.

 

I am not saying your engine should do it one way or another, just speculating what can be achieved simply with parallax and a few aptly crafted pre-distorted bitmaps.

 

Then again please upload whatever H.E.R.O. 3D demo you have so we can see it in action.

No worries. I tried a lot of different approaches/iterations, till I got to the current one that both works and is fast.

 

Yes, it would be possible to just precalculate 'frames' of those perspective walls. But then it would not be an engine :-)

 

I've got like 5-8 different methods of doing the perspective texturing - cpu-only, blitter-only, all kinds of combinations, with different hacks / optimizations. But in the end, all of them do the actual texturing.

 

I did an awful lot of experimenting in this area, so I do believe I have a lot to say in this matter (as far as jag's capabilities are concerned).

[PlaysWithWolves]

[Livewire Gameplay]

 

I'm so glad you posted this, as my mind also went there but couldn't recall the name.

Edited November 24, 2015 by PlaysWithWolves

[VladR]

To start with just show us any video on the game/engine, and later prove the fps stuff. Or maybe that is already done? (Hot link?)

 

I think it would be much easier for you to discuss this, if people had more than words to go on.

 

I am aiming to do both - create a 'benchmark' binary that will gradually keep adding effects/details (starting with wireframe, then flatshaded, then low-res/med-res/hires textures).

 

The challenging part however is how to 'prove' the 60 fps part. I figured the easiest, from the end-user standpoint, is to divide the screen into smaller segments, so that you can see the perspective wall moves those 60 pixels in one second - even though the game would be too fast this way - but it is OK for a benchmark.

 

I'm in the middle of that, it's taking some additional effort.

 

 

Other than the above, I could capture the video using a regular digital camera, and just upload it to youtube.

 

But then we are back to original point - how do you know it does actually run in 60 fps ? Then, Sub-8bit 2D jokers will start spewing tons of bullshit again - as in past, and we already know from past, their characteristics do not include apologies. This community is what it is, we cannot change it.

[NeoGeoNinja]

This genre we're discussing.

 

It's just called 2.5D, isn't it?

 

Like Strider 2 and Klonoa on PS1? It's a shmup, but R-Type Delta was also 2.5D.

 

Probably plenty of examples tbh, but can't think of many off hand right this moment.

 

Anyway, best game to utlilise VladR's up and coming 2.5D game engine... Atomic Runner Chelnov 3D - C to fire left, B to jump, A to fire right. Continuously scrolling 3D so the background can just be loaded into memory and then dumped thereafter, like NFS/RRash.

 

Literally, just a fun suggestion

[phoenixdownita]

This genre we're discussing.

 

It's just called 2.5D, isn't it?

 

Like Strider 2 and Klonoa on PS1? It's a shmup, but R-Type Delta was also 2.5D.

 

Probably plenty of examples tbh, but can't think of many off hand right this moment.

 

Anyway, best game to utlilise VladR's up and coming 2.5D game engine... Atomic Runner Chelnov 3D - C to fire left, B to jump, A to fire right. Continuously scrolling 3D so the background can just be loaded into memory and then dumped thereafter, like NFS/RRash.

 

Literally, just a fun suggestion

Not sure but 2.5D are actually 3D where the character moves on rails like Klonoa, Pandemonium, Nights, the camera though swirls around and doesn't just strife.

Here we are talking about giving a 3D "perspective" look to 2D side scrollers, which is not the exact same as 2.5D (or at least it wasn't).

[Sporadic]

But then we are back to original point - how do you know it does actually run in 60 fps ?

How do *you* know it runs at 60fps at present if you dont currently have any performance counters in there?

[VladR]

How do *you* know it runs at 60fps at present if you dont currently have any performance counters in there?

Because I have a framecounter in the interrupt portion of the ASM startup.s code.

 

And it took an incredible deal of effort to cross even 30 fps (e.g. 2 vblanks per frame) with jag's HW. But I kept adjusting algorithms and approaches, and finally crossed the 60 fps barrier - e.g. amount of rendered frames equals amount of vblanks.

 

But the framecounter is very, very far from giving any kind of reference point for a regular player.

 

The best idea - how to convey the 60 fps - that I have come up with so far is the following:

1. Establish 2 vertical lines, 30 pixels apart

2. Let engine run at full speed and get it to move the walls at full speed, e.g. move the wall right 30 frames in first half second and then another 30 frames in second half second. 30+30 = 60.

3. Repeat it for 10 seconds.

 

If there were framedrops, you would see them - that's for sure. If there are no framedrops, then 30+30 = 60.

 

It is still far from ideal, but it is at least close to being sort-of 'measurable'.

[VladR]

This genre we're discussing.

 

It's just called 2.5D, isn't it?

 

Like Strider 2 and Klonoa on PS1? It's a shmup, but R-Type Delta was also 2.5D.

 

Probably plenty of examples tbh, but can't think of many off hand right this moment.

 

Anyway, best game to utlilise VladR's up and coming 2.5D game engine... Atomic Runner Chelnov 3D - C to fire left, B to jump, A to fire right. Continuously scrolling 3D so the background can just be loaded into memory and then dumped thereafter, like NFS/RRash.

 

Literally, just a fun suggestion

There are so many interpretations to what actually constitutes 2.5D that we could be arguing here for 3 months and each of us would -actually- be right.

 

 

The fact of the matter is that jag does not have these 'semi-3D' games in its library, and it's actually the only area/genre that it's fast enough for (in terms of 3D textured gfx).

[AtariORdead]

Its hard getting any sort of consistant performance out of the Jag.

 

My port of stun runner is barely over 20FPS at the minute

 

I think if i remove the thingamajig, and twiddle with the diddles, then adjust the rotary snozzle, then finally update the raster parameters I can get it to at least 21FPS.

 

maybe 21 and a half FPS if I shove a 5200 controller up my ass.

Edited November 24, 2015 by AtariORdead

[sh3-rg]

"best idea" reads like utter nonsense. No need for such convoluted and burdensome hoop-jumping. Just host a file, then, as someone uses a joypad to control the on-screen action:

Jaguar --> SCART --> xRGB mini --> GCHD --> truth

At least 4 users on here have this set up or better.

 

30 minutes later and everyone knows one way or the other.

 

 

 

Or just send it to Digital Foundry and NX Gamer

:0)

 

 

 

maybe 21 and a half if I shove a 5200 controller up my ass.

 

Haven't read a better use for one of these, ever.

 

 

Hmm, I should remake that video now YT supports 60fps videos, that one does not do the game justice.

Edited November 24, 2015 by sh3-rg

[+CyranoJ]

"best idea" reads like utter nonsense. No need for such convoluted and burdensome hoop-jumping. Just host a file, then, as someone uses a joypad to control the on-screen action:

 

Jaguar --> SCART --> xRGB mini --> GCHD --> truth

 

At least 4 users on here have this set up or better.

 

30 minutes later and everyone knows one way or the other.

 

 

 

Or just send it to Digital Foundry and NX Gamer

 

 

:0)

 

 

 

 

Haven't read a better use for one of these, ever.

 

And please, use one of the many audio engines to add some sound. Because we all know the DSP doesn't impact on performance at all.

[VladR]

"best idea" reads like utter nonsense. No need for such convoluted and burdensome hoop-jumping. Just host a file, then, as someone uses a joypad to control the on-screen action:

 

I am going to make this single public exception and react to you.

 

[Switching vocabulary to sh3-rg-appropriate form]

 

WARNING : Strong Language | Disturbing Bathroom scene

 

 

Something happened to you that you became so hopelessly FUCKING delusional and believe I would do the same stupid mistake I did in past with the Klax binary, because of you.

 

How in the FUCK did you manage to fuck up your profile that I'm not on your ignore list anymore ? My post wasn't quoted, so you must have explicitly de-ignored me. The FUCK is wrong with you <SMFH>...

 

Yes, I know. It's the age (probably Alzheimer) ! You even forgot to insert your typical "funny" British* joke/GIF.

 

I just got an idea of one - stand in front of the bathroom door frame and ask for help one of your sub-8-bit partners - when they slap you, watch how the frame bounces your head (ever so slightly more bloody) back. Repeat ad nauseum (actually not very long) :-)

Heh, I would actually pay serious money to see a GIF of that !

 

Whoever is taking care of you, is obviously slacking. Then again, how much can one expect from UK Healthcare...

 

*British = English (well...)

 

 

[Switching vocabulary back to default form]

[VladR]

This genre we're discussing.

 

It's just called 2.5D, isn't it?

 

Like Strider 2 and Klonoa on PS1?

 

Literally, just a fun suggestion

Actually, Strider is a great example ! I only know of PS4 version, but that is hopelessly hi-polygonal.

 

I forgot about the PS1 version ! Thanks for the idea. Will go look the PS1 version up. Wondering how detailed are the environments on PS1 in Strider.

[VladR]

I just watched some videos of Strider 2 on PS1 and it's a great example of where this technology can be pushed (scrolling instead of screen-based), lots of polygonal bosses.

 

However the camera very slightly rotates (like, 5 degrees or so), and it creates that unpleasant artifact of shimmering in textures, which is best avoided in such low resolution.

 

Thank you for the great example ! Missed that on PS1 !

[VladR]

So cool.

Interesting how all the "Z crossing walls" are the only ones without textures

Lots of neat tricks.

Of course :-) Because that's the computationally the most intensive part, so they resorted to flatshading.

 

This looks like it's not even a 3D wall - looks like an effect done via OP List (e.g. ~free - save for OP List update)

[+save2600]

On the subject of the PS1, anyone play Iron Soldier 3? What do you think of it? Especially compared to the Jag versions. Technically or otherwise...

[+CyranoJ]

I am going to make this single public exception and react to you.

 

Can you not make a single public exception and release a binary to prove anything you've said is real?

 

 

Have a smiley.