Dreamers' corner: Did Jaguar show full potential, or not?

[VladR]

 

I realize a lot of people have muted you at this point, but you do realize that it's very hard for those of us who haven't to take you seriously when you make claims like the Jaguar being able to even remotely approximate an Xbox 360 3D game, right? If the Jaguar had trouble competing in 3D with contemporary systems, it's a bit bonkers to try and claim it can get a sniff of a console three generations removed.

 

You know what would be a good start? Getting the Jaguar to pull off something like Alone in the Dark, with simple polygonal characters and pre-rendered backgrounds, all at a speedier frame rate than contemporary systems like the 3DO. The only example we have is Highlander, and we know that's atrocious and a step down from Alone in the Dark quality. Maybe take that as a first step, then we might be able to speculate what next step the Jaguar might be able to pull off after that. Otherwise, all of the evidence points to this all being the usual baseless speculation/fumes/wishful thnking/trolling/etc.

Of course jag cannot pull off any X360 stuff. But the PrinceOfPersia there is using how much - 0.0001% of X360's potential ? It's a very simple 3D game on X360 (yet, still beautiful due to textures and lighting - and of course being the classic PoP game).

 

Outside of polygonal characters (which I will be the first one to say jag won't be able to pull off in any comparable detail under a playable framerate -> hence they'd be 'mere' 2D bitmaps).

 

But the environment (namely walls) does not really have too many polygons. You can easily represent most screens in about 100-200 polygons, which is just about what jag can handle. The rest is in lighting and textures. You don't need DirectX for that. You can easily calculate lighting at run-time.

 

 

Your example of Alone In The Dark is actually a bad one. Jag was actually designed to do games like PrinceOfPersia/Karateka in 3D, due to the inherently vertical nature (from the point of view of 3D engine/texturing) of the polygons - which the jag can do relatively fast.

 

Alone in the dark requires generic triangles, which are much, much slower to texture on jaguar.

 

I guess I should make time to record the video of my H.E.R.O. 3D running at 60 fps on jag. then you'd see it's not very far from that to PrinceOfPersia (basically just make a jump from 8-bit to 16-bit AND create nice textures).

[+Gemintronic]

I guess I should make time to record the video of my H.E.R.O. 3D running at 60 fps on jag. then you'd see it's not very far from that to PrinceOfPersia (basically just make a jump from 8-bit to 16-bit AND create nice textures).

 

What happened to the Klax engine? I thought that tore stuff up?

[Atlantis]

I guess I should make time to record the video of my H.E.R.O. 3D running at 60 fps on jag. then you'd see it's not very far from that to PrinceOfPersia (basically just make a jump from 8-bit to 16-bit AND create nice textures).

Don't guess DO it - execute, plix!

 

You got 2 weeks!

[VladR]

 

What happened to the Klax engine? I thought that tore stuff up?

Nothing. I proved I can do 3D cubes falling down the platform at 60 fps using just high-level C under 68k without any help of OP/Blitter/GPU/DSP.

 

Despite resident 2D 'experts' claiming it won't do more than 3 fps, but the final 60-fps video was captured on real jag.

 

That was very simple flatshaded 3D compared to H.E.R.O. which involves basically full-screen texturing (lots of slow perspective texturing).

 

But again, this type of texturing is something that jag can relatively easily do.

[phoenixdownita]

....

I got the HERO 3D engine running at 60 fps (without touching GPU or DSP !), it's undeniable that jag's 3D power was very, very, VERY far from being even slightly tapped.

....

If that means it's all via the 68K then you likely have very few poly at all.

There were 2 "gaming" machines back in the day with 68K (Atari ST, Amiga) and neither of those could do very many poly and very many frames per sec.

Even accounting for the Jag faster clock and faster mem access high poly count and high fps is not in the stars.

 

From:

https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/yes-but-how-many-polygons-an-artist-blog-entry-with-interesting-numbers.39321/

based off of

http://www.rsart.co.uk/2007/08/27/yes-but-how-many-polygons/

 

 

Tomb Raider

(Lara)

TR1 - 230

TRIII - 300

Angel of Darkness - 4,400

Legend - 9,800

Underworld - 32,816

 

So TR1 Lara alone was 230 poly, and at times there were 2 characters [the T-rex, the dogs etc...], whole environments etc...etc...

 

EDIT:

Just read this

...

Nothing. I proved I can do 3D cubes falling down the platform at 60 fps using just high-level C under 68k without any help of OP/Blitter/GPU/DSP.

...

OK! Guess the 68K is a 3D power house, we just didn't know back then.

Edited November 24, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[+Gemintronic]

I heard there was a GPU in the mains. I tried to pull it out but my FPS went to zero.

[VladR]

Don't guess DO it - execute, plix!

 

You got 2 weeks!

Two problems with that:

1. While I finally have jag/skunk right by my dev desk, I don't have the vid capture set-up. About a month ago I started looking it up, but it seems those capture set-ups I have seen in past under $50 are only 30-fps devices. Which makes no sense. So, the next cheapest 60-fps thing I found is for $180.

2. How are you going to see 60 fps there ? I need to create a separate benchmark-style scene, where you will be able to visually confirm it is indeed 60 fps - e.g. draw some lines 30 pixels apart and let character and whole scene move twice back and forth in a second, one pixel at a time, thus adding up to 60 fps. That is additional work, but one I started recently.

[phoenixdownita]

Just to make sure we all understand what kind of games we're talking about

 

Edited November 24, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[+madman]

LOL now the Jag's unharnessed POWAH can compete w the xbox360? I truly don't know what to expect each time I visit this forum.

[VladR]

If that means it's all via the 68K then you likely have very few poly at all.

There were 2 machines back in the day with 68K (Atari St, Amiga) and neither of those could do very many poly and very many frames per sec.

Even accounting for the Jag faster clock and faster mem access high poly count and high fps is not in the stars.

 

From:

https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/yes-but-how-many-polygons-an-artist-blog-entry-with-interesting-numbers.39321/

based off of

http://www.rsart.co.uk/2007/08/27/yes-but-how-many-polygons/

 

 

Tomb Raider

(Lara)

TR1 - 230

TRIII - 300

Angel of Darkness - 4,400

Legend - 9,800

Underworld - 32,816

 

So TR1 Lara alone was 230 poly, and at times there were 2 characters [the T-rex, the dogs etc...], whole environments etc...etc...

The H.E.R.O. 3D used to be 68k-only, but that was about a year or two ago.

 

Then I switched to using 68k + Blitter, which I eventually optimized to reach stable 30 fps.

 

Now I am using OP + Blitter + 68k + my very own fast line-drawing algorithm (much, much faster than the default Bresenham). That is how I reached 60 fps, including input, script processing, enemy animation (the bat animation - multiple animation frames). No sound, though (yet).

 

The next plan is to switch to 16-bit, and most probably it would drop to 30 fps - BUT it would allow us to have rich background textures with beautiful lighting. Something like PoP on X360.

 

 

Tomb Raider you mention has a free-roaming camera - that is not going to be fast on Jag. Like I said in past many times - let's work on games its HW was designed to do, not on games it wasn't designed for.

[Bill Loguidice]

Nice comparison

 

 

 

I thought this was the one he was referring to, not the 2D one?

Edited November 24, 2015 by Bill Loguidice

[Bill Loguidice]

Two problems with that:

1. While I finally have jag/skunk right by my dev desk, I don't have the vid capture set-up. About a month ago I started looking it up, but it seems those capture set-ups I have seen in past under $50 are only 30-fps devices. Which makes no sense. So, the next cheapest 60-fps thing I found is for $180.

2. How are you going to see 60 fps there ? I need to create a separate benchmark-style scene, where you will be able to visually confirm it is indeed 60 fps - e.g. draw some lines 30 pixels apart and let character and whole scene move twice back and forth in a second, one pixel at a time, thus adding up to 60 fps. That is additional work, but one I started recently.

 

I think a video from your smartphone would suffice at this point to at least get an idea of what you're talking about. Also, are your frame rate targets including gameplay, AI, and other calculations, or is it just the rendering engine you're talking about?

[phoenixdownita]

 

I thought this was the one he was referring to, not the 2D one?

I think he's referring to pseudo 3D games, where the game is really 2D but the background is rendered in a "isometric-ish" 3D way (fixed camera, fix order of the planes etc...) .... the fact that he called his engine H.E.R.O. lend credence to that as that was the kind of game Atari H.E.R.O. was.

He actually also states the characters better be sprites (as my example show Lara alone is 230+ poly, that leaves little for the rest if any details have to be conveyed by the models [means more poly] rather than textures alone).

 

I've seen a few face-lift of that nature on old platformers with various degree of success, they do look nice (assuming lots of textures and lots of lighting effects).

Edited November 24, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[phoenixdownita]

....

let's work on games its HW was designed to do, not on games it wasn't designed for.

So the Jag was designed to do pseudo 3D, fixed camera side view games? A genre that didn't exist until much later?

I believe the PS2 with some of the "3D" remakes [sega Ages] "started" the trend (with mixed results, Golden Axe).

There was not much on PS1/Sat, some shmups tried but few and far between if memory serves.

Edited November 24, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[Bill Loguidice]

I think he's referring to pseudo 3D games, where the game is really 2D but the background is rendered in a "isometric-ish" 3D way (fixed camera, fix order of the planes etc...) .... the fact that he called his engine H.E.R.O. lend credence to that as that was the kind of game Atari H.E.R.O. was.

He actually also states the characters better be sprites (as my example show Lara alone is 230+ poly, that leaves little for the rest if any details has to be conveyed by the models rather than textures alone).

 

I've seen a few face-lift of that nature on old platformers with various degree of success, they do look nice (assuming lot's of textures and lot's of lighting effects).

 

Seems like the long way of going about it, then. If it's going to be 2D anyway, I don't see why someone would bother with unnecessary 3D calculations on a system that's probably better off ignoring them. Of course, I'm not speaking from a base of technical knowledge in this area, so what do I know?

[phoenixdownita]

 

Seems like the long way of going about it, then. If it's going to be 2D anyway, I don't see why someone would bother with unnecessary 3D calculations on a system that's probably better off ignoring them. Of course, I'm not speaking from a base of technical knowledge in this area, so what do I know?

Well if the poly count can be relatively high and the texture relatively high-def you get visually appealing results introducing "perspective", not sure either is true here though.

Also let's not forget that low res doesn't help 3D games (of any kind), we can all agree that 480 (i/p) of PS2/DC/Xbox/GC was much much better suited to 3D than the previous 240. Even on XBox original the very few 720/1080 looked in a class apart.

 

But let's see this HERO 3D(-ish) demo/engine/game, after all any new homebrew is welcome.

Edited November 24, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[Bill Loguidice]

Well if the poly count can be relatively high and the texture relatively high-def you get visually appealing results, not sure either is true here though.

Also let's not forget that low res also doesn't help 3D games (of any kind), we can all agree that 480 (i/p) of PS2/DC/Xbox/GC was much much better suited to 3D than the previous 240. Even on XBox original the very few 720/1080 looked in a class apart.

 

But let's see this HERO 3D(-ish) demo/engine/game, after all any new homebrew is welcome.

 

I agree completely. I think the biggest offender has always been low resolution textures even over low poly counts. That's exactly what we'd have here.

 

And yes, if we can at least SEE what this looks like, we can at least get a sense of what exactly is being targeted here. I don't see that happening anytime soon, though, even though it should be super simple uploading something to YouTube, even if it's not a perfect representation.

[VladR]

I think he's referring to pseudo 3D games, where the game is really 2D but the background is rendered in a "isometric-ish" 3D way (fixed camera, fix order of the planes etc...) .... the fact that he called his engine H.E.R.O. lend credence to that as that was the kind of game Atari H.E.R.O. was.

He actually also states the characters better be sprites (as my example show Lara alone is 230+ poly, that leaves little for the rest if any details has to be conveyed by the models rather than textures alone).

 

I've seen a few face-lift of that nature on old platformers with various degree of success, they do look nice (assuming lot's of textures and lot's of lighting effects).

Oh, no. Not an ISO ! By 'fixed', I mean it does not rotate/pitch - only strafes. Just like in PoP 3D on X360 - the 95% of 3D effect there is in the strafing of camera (and the perspective of walls changes accordingly).

[VladR]

So the Jag was designed to do pseudo 3D, fixed camera side view games? A genre that didn't exist until much later?

I believe the PS2 with some of the "3D" remakes [sega Ages] "started" the trend (with mixed results, Golden Axe).

There was not much on PS1/Sat, some shmups tried but few and far between if memory serves.

OK, sorry about that formulation :-)

 

It may not have been designed with those games in mind, but in the end, its HW is capable of doing that kind of texturing.

[Bill Loguidice]

Oh, no. Not an ISO ! By 'fixed', I mean it does not rotate/pitch - only strafes. Just like in PoP 3D on X360 - the 95% of 3D effect there is in the strafing of camera (and the perspective of walls changes accordingly).

 

So I was right. And here I thought phoenixdownita had walked us back to reality by only saying you were targeting the 3D update of the 2D original.

[VladR]

 

So I was right. And here I thought phoenixdownita had walked us back to reality by only saying you were targeting the 3D update of the 2D original.

What do you mean exactly ?

 

Does X360's PoP gameplay suffer because the camera does not rotate ? It's not an FPS, or multiplayer shooter or a simulator. It's a 3D sidescroller with fixed camera (it does rotate a tiny little bit, but that would look ugly in lower resolution, so it's better if just keep the animated perspective).

[phoenixdownita]

So I was right. And here I thought phoenixdownita had walked us back to reality by only saying you were targeting the 3D update of the 2D original.

Wait for it ... wait for it.

 

I believe what VladR calls PoP 3D is PoP Classic remake for 360, not the one you linked.

 

EDIT:

Here PoP Classic for 360

Edited November 24, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[phoenixdownita]

Oh, no. Not an ISO ! By 'fixed', I mean it does not rotate/pitch - only strafes. Just like in PoP 3D on X360 - the 95% of 3D effect there is in the strafing of camera (and the perspective of walls changes accordingly).

My bad I didn't mean isometric literally, just fixed "perspective" if you prefer.

Basically what back in the days was obtained with a few layers of parallax.

Now the face-lift does the same with 3D where the camera is pretty much fixed and as you say it strafes (or simply just keeps the character centered).

Edited November 24, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[VladR]

Wait for it ... wait for it.

 

I believe what VladR calls Pop 3D is PoP Classic remade for 360, not the one you linked.

Correct. Here is the link to video of game I was talking about:

 

 

Note, that despite being on X360, the game environment does not have hundreds of thousands of polygons.

 

The walls have maybe about few hundred - which is just about what jag can handle.

 

The fixed perspective means you do not have to waste precious performance on perspective texturing (aside from the actual perspective walls).

 

My textures in HERO are ugly and not 16-bit. Once I make the switch to 16-bit the engine can be used for something like in video above (just in jag-appropriate resolution of course !)

Edited November 24, 2015 by VladR

[VladR]

My bad I didn't mean isometric literally, just fixed "perspective" if you prefer.

Basically what back in the days was obtained with a few layers of parallax.

Now the face-lift does the same with 3D where the camera is pretty much fixed and as you say it strafes (or simply just keeps the character centered).

Well, parallax will not give you perspective texturing on 3D walls.

 

H.E.R.O. 3D does actual perspective-correct texturing (there's a full (though heavily optimized) transformation/culling/visibility pipeline in place).