sd32 Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 There's no reason the 3DO couldn't have easily matched the other versions, so yeah, there were two consoles out at that time that could do it. Chilly Willy (from Sega16) was studying the posiblity of a Sega 32X version of Rayman. I think he mentioned that it would need to run at 30 FPS because he would like "not" to use the Genesis hardware sprites and backgrounds, to fully take advantage of the 32X superior color capabilities. So i guess the 32X should have been capable of a competent version of Rayman too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 (edited) @High Voltage:Yeah my reply seems to have ended up mixed in with your quote. Anywho, given the fact the game (Rayman) was originally intended for the SNES CD Drive, i can quite well believe other platforms such as the 32X and 3DO, could of handled a competent version of the game, just restrictions on things like frame rate etc. It's one of those titles that switched formats as newer, more powerful technology came along, it's not as if the game was on hold until the Jaguar arrived and the creator clapped his hands and said: 'At last, i can bring my creation to life'...The Jaguar simply allowed him to do more with it, than would of been possible on SNES CD. It's creator i assume, originally set his 'vision' to what was possible within the limits of planned hardware and increased that vision, when said hardware was cancelled and more powerful hardware appeared on the horizon. Edited November 26, 2015 by Lost Dragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Has it ever been confirmed somewhere if Rayman runs in 24-bit color mode on Jag, or is it just 16-bit (at which point it is irrelevant if it is CRY or 5-6-5) ? Apologies, if I just missed it here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion_ Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 (edited) and, to answer topic title, to me, the most impressive jaguar title is "World Tour Racing", a full textured 3D engine at decent speed, I don't think the Jaguar can do any better, (and if it can do better, it is very unlikely that any homebrew guy will ever do something better than this engine) Edited November 26, 2015 by Orion_ 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Thanks for confirming this Orion. I was hoping for 24-bit, I admit. Speaking of 24-bit, any commercial 2D game on jag ever used that mode ? Yes, I've read in jag's docs how it taxes the jag, so I understand not a whole lot of cycles are going to be available (well, for 68k, anyway), so even a simple 2D game would most probably have to be running off GPU/DSP (though, I admit, I never played much with 24-bit on jag, yet). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion_ Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 (edited) If I remember correctly, I tried 24bits mode on jaguar, and I was stuck with an hardware bug which won't allow using transparency on black color (like in 16bits), so, you just can't make a game with square sprites :/ Edited November 26, 2015 by Orion_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 If I remember correctly, I tried 24bits mode on jaguar, and I was stuck with an hardware bug which won't allow using transparency on black color (like in 16bits), so, you just can't make a game with square sprites :/ I myself only did some small experiments with the colors in 24-bit mode, never really tried transparent sprites in 24-bit - but will definitely keep it in mind next time I will play with that mode. Thanks for the tip. Perhaps there is just some additional flag that needs to be set or something ? Do you remember if it was Blitter or OP who had issues with the transparency ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagosaurus Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Wow, as always... I do think Atari Games releases would have been beneficial for the Jaguar. They put out some really solid games and were pioneers in the polygonal space at the time. It would have been nice to see games like Stun Runner, among others (some of which never even got console ports). I need to look up some of their other titles from this timeframe but T Mek certainly would've been a welcome addition to the library. @OP, IMO the Jag reached it's potential on a handful of titles. "Reached potential" is a subjective term. In my eyes, did it push the hardware in some form in order to put out a quality title that wasn't possible on the earlier consoles. Now, that's a much different question than, was every single resource squeezed out of the system. That answer is no but rarely is it yes in the industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 @Orion_: WTR coder Lee Briggs, has been quoted as saying Teque were planning a second racing game for the Jag CD, which was supposed to re-use some WTR Code, but feature cleaner, faster 3D..... So maybe the WTR Engine could of been pushed just that little bit further at a commercial level, had the Jaguar lasted a bit longer?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterG Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 @Orion_: WTR coder Lee Briggs, has been quoted as saying Teque were planning a second racing game for the Jag CD, which was supposed to re-use some WTR Code, but feature cleaner, faster 3D..... So maybe the WTR Engine could of been pushed just that little bit further at a commercial level, had the Jaguar lasted a bit longer?. Thanks for the clarification on my question with eclipse. That information I had rad before but still cool if it gives CJ ideas. Concerning WTR I have not heard of another game in the making. What I rad though is that the developer had an overhauled engine which did not make it to the release. I remember reading that but who knows if it is true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 That information I had rad before but still cool if it gives CJ ideas. I what now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stirrell Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 I think it would be difficult to believe that, because of its commercial failure, the Jaguar hardware was pushed as far as it could go. if there were tons of systems sold, there would be lots more competition in building games with more resources... I don't think anyone has argued that Atari put adequate resources into game development. The short lifespan of the system meant we really only saw a couple generation of games at most. Nobody would have imagined the games we're seeing on the 2600 and 7800 today. I think it is safe to say that more performance could be squeezed out of the system but that is true of all systems. So I am not arguing that the Jaguar is as powerful as a PS1. But much more efforts went into pushing the PS1 hardware to its full potential. The Jaguar never had anywhere near the development resources. I think if more people worked on it, we'd likely see more impressive stuff on the Jag than we have thus far. Probably no hardware is ever driven to its absolute limits... People are coming up with new tricks for old platforms all the time. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariORdead Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 As much as I take the piss out of the Jag, I think its fair to say that it probably could have produced some better games. However, I also belive that most of the developers who worked on the Jag were not really good enough to knock out AAA titles. At that point in time I believe you would have needed the big Japanese companies to get hold of it and see what they could do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCPCD Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 (edited) Like said Orion_, the 24-bit sprite can't be transparent : there is no transparent check with 24-bit sprite in the OP netlist, but there is a trick used in IronSoldier2. From what i know the 24-bit mode as never been use in games, but only for fixed screens (like title screen) with very minimum animation/interaction. I only see it yet in 2 games (maybe there is others but don't think many more) : - In IronSoldier the scrolling picture before the menu screen is 24-bit. - In IronSoldier2 the weapon selector use a trick to use transparent in 24-bit mode : it is 24-bit background with a 24-bit sprite for the selector used as 16-bit with transparent. L00004210: 0000000848008FD3 ; branch 506 < VC, $00004240 L00004218: 00000008480040D3 ; branch 26 > VC, $00004240 L00004220: 02FCF80846380170 0000800A0280D026 ; bitmap X:38, Y:46, H:224, IW:320pix, D:$0002FCF8, L:$00004230, BPP:32, DW:320pix, IDX:0, FP:0, PITCH1 | TRANS L00004230: 00C4200848054600 00008000E038C128 ; bitmap X:296, Y:192, H:21, IW:56pix, D:$0000C420, L:$00004240, BPP:16, DW:56pix, IDX:0, FP:0, PITCH1 | TRANS L00004240: 0000000000000004 ; stop #$0000000000000000 Edited November 27, 2015 by SCPCD 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 Like said Orion_, the 24-bit sprite can't be transparent : there is no transparent check with 24-bit sprite in the OP netlist, but there is a trick used in IronSoldier2. From what i know the 24-bit mode as never been use in games, but only for fixed screens (like title screen) with very minimum animation/interaction. I only see it yet in 2 games (maybe there is others but don't think many more) : - In IronSoldier the scrolling picture before the menu screen is 24-bit. - In IronSoldier2 the weapon selector use a trick to use transparent in 24-bit mode : it is 24-bit background with a 24-bit sprite for the selector used as 16-bit with transparent. L00004210: 0000000848008FD3 ; branch 506 < VC, $00004240 L00004218: 00000008480040D3 ; branch 26 > VC, $00004240 L00004220: 02FCF80846380170 0000800A0280D026 ; bitmap X:38, Y:46, H:224, IW:320pix, D:$0002FCF8, L:$00004230, BPP:32, DW:320pix, IDX:0, FP:0, PITCH1 | TRANS L00004230: 00C4200848054600 00008000E038C128 ; bitmap X:296, Y:192, H:21, IW:56pix, D:$0000C420, L:$00004240, BPP:16, DW:56pix, IDX:0, FP:0, PITCH1 | TRANS L00004240: 0000000000000004 ; stop #$0000000000000000 Thanks for the info, this is very interesting. If I'm reading the OP list right, the 21-pix selector is actually overlayed over the main bitmap (and is not below the bitmap, which would be of course easy).. But, jag docs are very explicit, that once jag is in 24-bit mode, no other modes can be on given scanline. Is that perhaps another bug ? Meaning, it wasn't supposed to work, but it still does ? Not sure if GPU interrupt object could be used for that... Does the Blitter suffer from same transparency issue in 24-bit ? I suppose once could still create a simple 3D scene in 24-bit, where you do not really need transparency of 2D sprites. But framerate would surely suffer greatly, even at 175x240, to draw the polygons via Blitter. It could still work for AloneInTheDark-style games, where "only" the 3D character would be processed in real-time (over prerendered background), but the background lighting would have to be very high-quality to warrant 24-bit (compared to 16-bit, especially CRY that gives us 256 shades of each color). So yeah, not a really very useful mode considering the issues... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 ... It could still work for AloneInTheDark-style games, where "only" the 3D character would be processed in real-time (over prerendered background), but the background lighting would have to be very high-quality to warrant 24-bit (compared to 16-bit, especially CRY that gives us 256 shades of each color). So yeah, not a really very useful mode considering the issues... The original Alone in the Dark for PC (1992) was 256 colors, so no issue there and nobody would fault anyone if he/she uses the exact same color palette: http://www.abandonia.com/files/extras/25260_game_extra_1.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 The original Alone in the Dark for PC (1992) was 256 colors, so no issue there and nobody would fault anyone if he/she uses the exact same color palette: http://www.abandonia.com/files/extras/25260_game_extra_1.pdf I played the AITD on a PC and at that time, the color banding artifacts weren't a big deal to me, but they are reaaaally ugly today. I was thinking more along the lines of how to use the 24-bit mode in some meaningful way, taking into account the issue with transparency (which is a big problem for 2D games with transparent sprites). One way would be to have a 3D engine pre-render a screen background for a game like AITD. 24-bit colors would be great for high-quality lighting. This way, you could have just one 3D mesh of a house in RAM and get possibly hundred screens/shots (out of the 3D engine), at full quality (well, limited by 3D engine features, anyway). For a game like AITD, it wouldn't really matter much, if screen rendering upon switching screens took about a second (possible due to expensive lighting algorithms, and use of 24-bit color mode that eats through the bandwidth twice as fast as CRY mode). Then, the "only" realtime 3D thing would be a character (or two), which at 4 Bytes per pixel, would be real slow to rasterize. Then again, if like SCPD mentions it is actually possible to overlay 16-bit bitmap over 24-bit background, it should be possible to rasterize the 3D character "fast" in just 8 bits/pixel into off-screen buffer and get the best of both worlds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high voltage Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 GORF on Jaguar is arcade perfect, another potential reached there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 GORF on Jaguar is arcade perfect, another potential reached there. You mean aside from being in the wrong ratio, and the wrong speed (in PAL)...... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoGeoNinja Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 GORF on Jaguar is arcade perfect, another potential reached there. LOL! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh3-rg Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 GORF on Jaguar is arcade perfect, another potential reached there. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggn Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 GORF on Jaguar is arcade perfect, another potential reached there. I'm sure the overdriven (and therefore clipped) voice samples were left like that for authenticity . 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LianneJaguar64 Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Or is it Jaguar Virtuality? No escape from reality, The Jaguar died, Look up to the skies and seeeeeeee... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 If fumes can empower big old middle-aged men to live out atari teenygirl fantasies, if they fuel dullards and simpletons to explore perverse developer wannabe roleplay, then who's to say the fumes aren't a valuable and necessary resource when they play a part in keeping these people off the streets and safely behind their keyboards? What a time to be alive! With helpfulfriendly input from rear, state of bliss most satisfaction can be reach in optimum givings. You're a fucking idiot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 With about 950 of them still in their box on a shelf. It doesn't matter whether they are sitting or not as far as sales are concerned. Just that they were sold. It's a potential customer base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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