Coleco Chameleon .... hardware speculations?

[Newsdee]

Ouya was clearly a hardware project, so it had no prototype.. and yes that is double standards.

Both the RVGS and CC were completely nebulous as to what was under the hood.

 

Had they claimed it was just a SNES clone then the Toy Fair prototype might have been acceptable if they used an actual clone like a Retro Trio, since technically it's still just a SNES clone as advertised.

 

Instead they claimed it did all kinds of things strongly implying higher specs than a SNES (NeoGeo at least for the RVGS). Not only what they showed failed to meet those claims, but it wasn't even a clone machine in the first place.

 

While at the same time pretending it was a custom clone in FPGA which only one person in the world has seemingly pulled off (but isn't selling or sharing code for it).

[godslabrat]

 

 

Clearly Ouya/kickstart don't know the difference.

A reference board is not a prototype board.

 

A reference board i'm guess is used to get an idea of what to R&D and get the software running.

Using a reference board in the launch video, making it look like a prototype is deceiving!

Implying the hardware had been R&D and designed.. which clearly at that early stage it didn't.. or they would have a real prototype.

 

Ouya was clearly a hardware project, so it had no prototype.. and yes that is double standards.

 

gwald, I'm confused by your premise.

 

Is it your contention that a project as inept and fundamentally dishonest as the RVGS should have been allowed to have a Kickstarter?

[Flojomojo]

GamerArchive is like something an insane millionaire would dream up. Problem is, this dude doesn't have the millionaire part yet.

 

[Keatah]

Or any common sense.

[Flojomojo]

Or any common sense.

 

 

Well, at least we know it's not Mike Kennedy. Mike says stuff like this.

 

That "COLECO is Back" title was added at the last minute by our PR firm. And I guess we can all debate what "Back" means. In a sense it is back. Even if in name only. The future of what that means remains to be seen. If this product, with the COLECO name on it, becomes a success at some level, then what will that mean? Is it "back" then? Is there a future in that brand to bring out or lend their name to other "new" products? I really don't think most are reading much more into it other than, "Hey, it would be cool to see that brand name back on a new product." The Chameleon will be the first "new" forward thinking product to adorn that brand name and none of us know where it could take the brand. It was never our intention to indicate this was anything but a licensing deal.

[godslabrat]

The GamerArchive actually has more of a "Infinium Phantom" feel to it, where they're promising hundreds of thousands of games... except they can't actually name any of them specifically, because the rights to them are being negotiated, or they're relying on emulation that's nowhere near close to being ready. Like Mike Kennedy, they're trying to sell the machine NOW based on the hopes and dreams of what it can achieve SOMEDAY. Unlike Mike Kennedy, they're smart enough to not name specific names, who can come back and say "No, we have no idea what this idiot is talking about."

 

However, saying it will literally work with every game, ever is really ballsy. That's just asking to fail. Sony can't even keep compatibility between Playstation generations, and they want to guarantee every game ever?

[Flojomojo]

I reported it too, though I had trouble finding exactly which thing to complain about. I settled on "this isn't creating something to share with others" and suggested that the creators were simply pulling a joke to see how far they could go before getting booted by Kickstarter.

 

I think they're violating all three of the core requirements and this should never have been approved. It's not a thing, it's not clearly presented, and its fraught with selling things that were made by others.

 

 

There are three rules every Kickstarter project must follow.

 

1. Projects must create something to share with others.

   Kickstarter can be used to create all sorts of things: art and gadgets, events and spaces, ideas and experiences. But every project needs a plan for creating something and sharing it with the world. At some point, the creator should be able to say: “It’s finished. Here’s what we created. Enjoy!”

2. Projects must be honest and clearly presented.

   Our community is built on trust and communication. Projects can’t mislead people or misrepresent facts, and creators should be candid about what they plan to accomplish. When a project involves manufacturing and distributing something complex, like a gadget, we require projects to show backers a prototype of what they’re making, and we prohibit photorealistic renderings.

3. Projects can’t fundraise for charity, offer financial incentives, or involve prohibited items.

   We’re all in favor of charity and investment, but they’re not permitted on Kickstarter. Projects can’t promise to donate funds raised to a charity or cause, and they can’t offer financial incentives like equity or repayment. We also can’t allow any of these prohibited things.

[carlsson]

The page says you should send them your old cartidges, which will be added to your cloud account and then mailed back to you. I'm not sure that is a legal way to get around licensing, if this project at all is for real. Of course you might find that you'll never see your precious cartridges, floppy disks, tapes, CD-ROMs etc again but that is another matter.

[Flojomojo]

The page says you should send them your old cartidges, which will be added to your cloud account and then mailed back to you. I'm not sure that is a legal way to get around licensing, if this project at all is for real. Of course you might find that you'll never see your precious cartridges, floppy disks, tapes, CD-ROMs etc again but that is another matter.

 

That's assuming you pledge into the service, it's funded, and you choose to go ahead with sending them anything. Something tells me most people will be safe and only "Gary Nance" will be able to say

 

In the end, I am the only one that has lost anything, money, potential opportunity and my reputation in this hobby.

[godslabrat]

I reported it too, though I had trouble finding exactly which thing to complain about. I settled on "this isn't creating something to share with others" and suggested that the creators were simply pulling a joke to see how far they could go before getting booted by Kickstarter.

 

I think they're violating all three of the core requirements and this should never have been approved. It's not a thing, it's not clearly presented, and its fraught with selling things that were made by others.

 

 

I just said there was nothing to show the project was even possible, and that it was misleading at best to suggest the technology was ready to go.

[Flojomojo]

Here are all the times Mike Kennedy said "In the end" in this thread. Other people use the phrase too if you want to do your own search.

 

In the end this is a good thing for all involved including us, our customers, our suppliers and distributors, our contract manufactures, potential retailers and probably most importantly to game developers.

I am aware that we gave you all plenty to poke fun at and criticize but in the end, I believe the product will be much better for going through all of this.

In the end, we all love and are passionate about video games and sometimes this passion causes us to do uncharacteristic things.

In the end, I am the only one that has lost anything, money, potential opportunity and my reputation in this hobby.

[godslabrat]

Almost as bad was Mike's use of the phrase "Just wait..." every time someone who actually knew what they were talking about spoke up. It was always "Just wait... we'll show you the specs" or "Just wait... we'll have games." And as we know now, he had nothing to show and never did, so all his "Just waits" were revealed to be the stalling tactics of a guy who just wanted your money.

[Chuck D. Head]

As joked about many time during his run on RGR, Mike likes it "in the end".

[toiletunes]

"in the end / just wait / simple as that" is an anagram for "Just a stalemated whitish tenpin"

 

oops, forgot to add "for the record"

[jaybird3rd]

Here are some other favorites of mine:

 

"going forward" or "moving forward" (as in, "There will be nothing BUT good news moving forward.")

"... we're in discussions with ..."

"... we're being courted by ..."

"sweat equity"

"... again, I believed him." (referencing "The Mysterious Mr. Lee")

 

and, of course, "... for the record!"

[toiletunes]

Someone should make MK jargon bingo ;P

[carlsson]

If you need funding for developing that bingo game, may I suggest trying Kickstarter?

[toiletunes]

I'm being courted by indigogo

[godslabrat]

This SD2SNEZ cart was made specially for me!

[gwald]

Yeah, and after you do all that, what do you have? A prototype!

 

SD&R points out below that Kickstarter's prototype rules were not yet in effect at the time of the Ouya campaign, but let's consider your assertion of a "double standard" as if they were.

 

You seem to be under the impression that a "real prototype" for a hardware product must be custom-designed hardware. Not necessarily so. The Ouya was built entirely out of existing technologies: the hardware was based on an NVIDIA Tegra 3 SoC, and the software was based on the Android platform. As I've said before, these are all well-understood, widely-used components that have already been proven to function well together in many other products. Anyone with any experience could get a clear picture in their mind of how the final Ouya system would work just by looking over the specs. All that the Ouya project had to prove was that they could provide a hardware and software stack that was functional and could deliver the performance and features that the final product needed. There was no reason to design custom hardware for that; the reference board already gave them everything they needed.

 

Contrast that with the Retro VGS, which was a total departure from the way that anyone with any console design experience has ever approached the creation of a new product. Mike and Co. didn't have any track record whatsoever in that space, they had nobody on their "team" with the necessary expertise, and when pressed for specifics, they consistently provided hyperbole instead. The burden of proof was much higher for them, and that's why prototype hardware was more essential to a valid proof of concept than it was for the Ouya.

 

Or, to put it more simply, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." There was nothing particularly extraordinary about the Ouya from an engineering standpoint, but there was plenty that was extraordinary—even outlandish—about the Retro VGS. They failed to provide any evidence that the idea would work or that they could successfully execute it. Being allowed to raise money on Kickstarter instead of IndieGoGo wouldn't have changed any of that.

 

I know you're one of the few cheerleaders and apologists that Mike has left, but give it up already. You're implying that Mike is a failure only because mean old Kickstarter played favorites and wouldn't give him a chance. After the RVGS fiasco, the "Coleco Chameleon" was his big chance to prove himself, and he completely and totally blew it. It was nothing but empty apologies and vague promises to "do it right this time," followed by an attempt at willful deception that was so inept and embarrassing that he is now an irredeemable laughingstock in front of the entire world. Mike has nobody to blame for any of this except himself—no, not even "The Mysterious Mr. Lee"—and he's long since run out of chances.

 

I'm not a cheerleading anything..

 

I agree that android and existing hardware are a dime a dozen... they could have used a tablet with HDMI out and called it a prototype!

IMO, that's not a prototype.. but okay.. and seeing that rule wasn't there, back in the day.. fare enough.

 

But, I could say the same about FPGA boards and console cores.. those have existed now for over 5+ years.

Mike, also wasn't inventing something new.

Using your logic, hypothetically, he could have used an existing FPGA board and an existing core and called it a prototype, right?

Or using an ARM9 with software emulator

 

"Is it your contention that a project as inept and fundamentally dishonest as the RVGS should have been allowed to have a Kickstarter?"

I'm not saying that at all.. it was a comment that Mike said (Ouya not having a prototype) and I wanted to see it's merit.

 

 

I'm not related to anyone.. it's an interesting story.. especially when 99% of the mob are on a particular side.. people assume things and don't bother investigating for themselves.

I'm not defending or condoning anything...

I didn't want to ask months ago.. I was hoping the poo storm left for newer pastures.

 

 

Am I being reported? for what? I'm not joking or hating on anybody?

Starting to think there's a double standard here :/

[godslabrat]

Mike, also wasn't inventing something new.

Using your logic, hypothetically, he could have used an existing FPGA board and an existing core and called it a prototype, right?

Or using an ARM9 with software emulator

 

[

Yes, Mike COULD have done any of those things. And if he had, perhaps we wouldn't be having this conversation. However, the fact remains that Mike did NOTHING, and had NO HARDWARE to show for it. What kind of prototype he could have made is irrelevant.... He had nothing.

[Newsdee]

But, I could say the same about FPGA boards and console cores.. those have existed now for over 5+ years.

 

No they haven't. Nobody has come up yet with a commercial or open source full SNES or NeoGeo implementation (to just name a couple).

 

So it's quite a bold claim to make, and if you show up with disguised original hardware you lose all credibility.

 

Had they set realistic and concrete specs, or admitted upfront they just had a real SNES with a new shell it would have been a different story.

Edited August 9, 2016 by Newsdee

[Flojomojo]

But, I could say the same about FPGA boards and console cores.. those have existed now for over 5+ years.

Mike, also wasn't inventing something new.

Using your logic, hypothetically, he could have used an existing FPGA board and an existing core and called it a prototype, right?

Or using an ARM9 with software emulator

That would have been fine ... there were rumors of the RetroVGS team using off the shelf FPGA development boards as a starting point. They still would have to program them with software to make them into the target systems for the "chameleon" to transform into Intellivision, Colecovision, and other systems. Even a software emulator would have been something to bring to market. All Mike EVER had was the Jaguar shell moldings, and it seems like he really really really wanted to use them, regardless of what would go inside. I wouldn't care what it looked like on the outside, so long as the design made sense on the inside.

 

I'm not sure what you are trying to say or prove here by pointing out that the prototype OUYA didn't look like the production OUYA. I get the sense you don't know what a prototype is supposed to be. Hint: It's about function, not appearances. Regardless of how it was pitched to Kickstarter backers, OUYA delivered a fun, affordable little product, on time and under budget. There were hundreds of apps written for it, and it performed pretty well. In contrast, RetroVGS/Coleco Chameleon never made it to Kickstarter, and was demonstrated to be a series of lies and empty promises. There isn't much of a comparison to be made.

 

You're entitled to your hurt feelings but there's no "double standard" on display here that I can see.

[jaybird3rd]

I'm not related to anyone.. it's an interesting story.. especially when 99% of the mob are on a particular side.. people assume things and don't bother investigating for themselves.

"Don't bother investigating for themselves"??? Excuse me, but this is AtariAge you're talking to. Let's not forget that, while the "gaming press" was busy lapping up Mike's every word and reprinting his press releases as news stories, the people here were the ones who were doing the hard investigative work, watching his every move and unmasking his lies at every turn. It's because of the efforts of people like Albert, Kevtris, Pipercub and UKMike, triverse, SD&R, pxlsicle, btbfilms76, and many others, that the truth about Mike was uncovered and spread like wildfire. Were it not for that, Mike's first IndieGoGo campaign may well have succeeded, or he might have made it to Kickstarter and succeeded there. As Pat Contri observed on the #CUPodcast, that would have been a catastrophe for such a small and close-knit hobby as ours. We are not a mob, we are a self-policing community, and in this instance, I'm glad we succeeded in chasing away a huckster and a fraud.

[Newsdee]

Anybody asking for public money must be willing to face some criticism.

 

Problem here was that they couldn't stomach anything that didn't support their positive spin (censoring comments or going into ad hominem attacks to discredit them) and their factual claims on specs didn't stand to basic scrutiny.

 

Look at Analogue. Oh no they cannibalized a Famicom , put a heavy duty metal shell around them and they charge so much. But what they've done is clear and the premium is not that huge compared to doing the same yourself.

 

Look at The Retro Pi project from Dragonbox. They aim to combine a RPi and a Retrode in one box. They take their time and are refining hardware bugs before launching a KS. Oh no it doesn't do anything new... except there's a convenience factor to get a full kit instead of an RPi plus a Retrode.

 

It shouldn't be that hard to get projects like these off the ground by listening to constructive feedback. But being vague in hopes of attracting as many people as possible isn't right, and luckily dubious projects are being challenged here (and elsewhere).

Edited August 9, 2016 by Newsdee