Nintendo Switch

[Andromeda Stardust]

I barely remember that. I got a WiiS3 instead though.

It's called PSWii. I have one. 160Gb Slim model.

[Asaki]

The difference is, those are all companies that never dabbled in hardware, certainly not on the scale Nintendo has.

Regardless of whether or not one considers the 3DO to be an EA venture, by no stretch of the imagination could one say that EA was in it "on a Nintendo scale", so I think he still has a point.

Edited November 7, 2016 by Asaki

[Schizophretard]

@Schizophretard: You can cook the numbers all you want. Sure 3DS has outsold PS4 and DS outsold PS3. But looking at where gaming is today, people are playing games on Smartphones everywhere.

 

Let's pretend that the Switch has already launched and it has reached the same amount of sales as the 3DS(61.57 million). If while docked in console mode I said,"The Switch has sold 61.57 million units worldwide and therefore is currently the top selling console." Then no one would take issue with the numbers. But as soon as I pull out the Switch from the dock to put it in handheld mode the statement becomes an example of cooking up numbers because people are playing on smartphones everywhere.

 

Now I'm not trying to set up a strawman or anything like that because I don't really believe that someone would really claim that 61.57 million is a high number when docked and a low number when not. The point of it is to show the false equivalence I see of "A handheld console has its own screen, is portable, and plays games. A smartphone has its own screen, is portable, and plays games. Therefore, a handheld console and a smartphone are the same kind of gaming devices." It is a false equivalence because it looks at their similarities and ignores their difference. In those differences that are ignored there are more similarities between a handheld console and a console than a handheld console and a smartphone. For an example, if a handheld console was designed with everything the same except it was in a box that you plugged into a TV with separate controllers(the few similarities it shares with a smartphone removed) then it would be a console because it already is a console but just portable.

 

It is like desktops and laptops. A desktop is like a PC gamer's console and a laptop is like a PC gamer's handheld. To add to the false equivalence,"A laptop has its own screen, is portable, and plays games. A handheld console has its own screen, is portable, and plays games. A smartphone has its own screen, is portable, and plays games. Therefore, a laptop, a handheld console, and a smartphone are the same kind of gaming devices." But they aren't. PC gamers, console gamers, and mobile gamers are different kinds of gamers with different preferences. Therefore, just because there are smartphones everywhere that doesn't necessarily mean that console gamers are going to give up handheld consoles and become mobile gamers or give up consoles for desktops or handheld consoles for laptops and become PC gamers just because there are PC's everywhere.

 

So, with the hypothetical Switch doing as well as the 3DS which one of these looks more like cooking up numbers?:

 

The Switch when docked?:

 

NES: 61.91 million sold worldwide

SNES: 49.10 million sold worldwide

N64: 32.93 million sold worldwide

Game Cube: 21.74 million sold worldwide

Wii: 101.63 million sold worldwide

Wii U: 13.36 million sold worldwide

Switch : 61.57 million sold worldwide

 

Or the Switch not docked?:

 

Switch : 61.57 million sold worldwide

Massive list of billions upon billions of smartphones sold worldwide

Massive list of billions upon billions of PC's sold worldwide

 

I would say the second one because rather or not the Switch is docked it is still console gaming, the 3DS not even having the ability to dock is still console gaming, and 61.57 million sold worldwide should be a number viewed within the context of console gaming and not mobile or PC gaming to make 61.57 million look like a small number in a different category of gaming that deals with numbers in the billions instead of millions.

 

So 3DS sold 59 million units worldwide? How many iOS and Android devices were sold during the time 3DS has been on the market? Granted not everybody who owns smartphones or tablets game on them and not everyone who games uses one as their preferred platform. But the 3DS compared to the mobile device market is a drop in the bucket. I haven't looked up statistics but I imagine mobile smart device sales are well over an order of magnitude more than 3DS.

 

So PS4 sold 40 million units worldwide? How many PC's were sold during the time PS4 has been on the market? Granted not everyone who owns laptops or desktops game on them and not everyone who games uses one as their preferred platform. But the PS4 compared to the PC market is a drop in the bucket. I haven't looked up statistics but I imagine PC sales are well over an order of magnitude more than PS4.

 

There is room for lots of fish in the sea, but based on numbers alone, even if Nintendo continued to penetrate the portable gaming market and turned quarterly profits with a 3DS successor, they would still risk losing relevance by catering to a dwindling niche market. So I think a full frontal assault on both fronts (console and mobile) is a worthy strategy. Consolidation of creative teams that formerly worked the Wii-U and 3DS divisions is also smart. Like any good corporate gamble, et's just hope their "one size fits all" strategy pays off...

 

The Switch would be a 3DS successor when in handheld mode and a Wii U successor while docked. That is what makes it a hybrid console.

 

I would agree with the full frontal assault on both fronts but not the fronts of console and mobile but instead the fronts of console and handheld console with the assault against other consoles instead of mobile devices.

 

As I have tried to explain I don't buy that a handheld console and a mobile device are the same market. There are some similarities and overlap like both have their own screen and both you can play games on but they have enough differences to be different markets kind of like the differences between PC gaming and console gaming. In other words, I believe that consoles and handheld consoles are within the same market, PC gaming is another market, and mobile gaming is even another market.

 

Anyway, what started this was I was responding to these:

 

 

I respect your opinion but disagree. Nintendo has sold 60 million 3ds units and can still sell over 100,000 a week. If the Switch doesn't make it then they will go back to another fully portable system imo.

 

Mobile phones and tablets, that is.

 

It is no secret that portable gaming outside of mobile phones has been dying slowly the last years. If that wasnt the case we would see many kinds of handhelds around. We dont.

 

Why spend millions developing hardware that might flop when you can just push software for the device that everyone already carry in their pocket? I mean, Nintendo is already doing it. They are not going to stop.

I agree with Punisher5.0 that handhelds are their strength which is why I think the Switch is a good move because if it did as well as the 3DS then there would be 61.57 million sold and counting that double as a console because they could hybrid into a console mode which is why I don't get how I'm cooking up numbers because when used as a console it would obviously be their top selling console after the Wii. But I disagree with him that if the Switch fails they would go back to a fully portable system because the Switch is already a fully portable system plus a dock and basically making another one minus the dock would be subtracting a feature. In other words, the way I see it is that they are already at that fully portable system step to replace a failed console which is the Wii U. So, I guess, in a way, I'm agreeing with Raticon that if it fails they will become software only with phones and even other consoles and PC's but I disagree that they wouldn't go with a fully portable console to replace a failed console because of what I said about them already being at that step. In other words, I agree with Punisher5.0 that they would go with a fully portable system before ditching hardware but think they are already at that step with the Switch and disagree with Raticon that they would go straight to software first before going fully portable because they are already at the fully portable step.

 

I also disagree with Raticon that mobile devices is why we don't see many kinds of handhelds because before mobile devices existed Nintendo didn't have much competition anyway and therefore I think it is more likely that Nintendo took them out and if mobile devices never existed I don't think all the billions of people who buy them would be buying a 3DS as if their existence now are taking billions of sales away from Nintendo.

 

Is Nintendo losing some sales because of mobile gaming? Sure. Just like they lose some sales to PC gaming. Mobile gaming is a new gaming category and obviously there will be those that would have that as a preference. But is mobile gaming causing handheld consoles to be slowly dying as if they make them obsolete? Not anymore than PC gaming has with consoles. In other words, I view this slowly dying statement with mobile as a replacement similar to how during the video game crash people thought consoles were a fad that would be replaced by PC's because PC's were everywhere, they did other tasks besides gaming, etc. But consoles are alive and well. Sound familiar? This is the exact same kind of thing but instead of big multi-purpose computers taking out the big dedicated game consoles that are just a "fad" it is now small multi-purpose computers taking out small dedicated game consoles that are just a "fad".

 

Anyway, if it is just a dying "fad" then why is Nintendo going all in with it with the Switch? Wouldn't it be safer to give it less portability by removing the screen and just putting it in a box like the PS4 and XBOX ONE to only have a docked console mode as if a box with less portability is some magical shield that protects it from mobile gaming? Or could it be that it isn't a fad at all and Nintendo is looking at similar "cooked up numbers" which brought them to the conclusion,"The Wii U was a flop. However, we have sold more handheld consoles than consoles and presently our 3DS has sold more units than the PS4. So, what if we created a handheld console with power closer to the other consoles than our handheld consoles have ever been that could be docked to a TV? Wouldn't that have the potential to bring our handheld console numbers into the living room and onto TV's?"

[Osgeld]

Is Nintendo losing some sales because of mobile gaming?

 

I am a big time fan of mobile gaming, but I have to admit, unlike a nintendo or sony where the crap factor may be 40-80% (wii and psp) its really more like 90% on android, even the shining stars feel like a indy budget title ... what it really needs is a nintendo lol

[0078265317]

Does anybody know if SWITCH will include VIRTUAL CONSOLE? Or did VC die with WIIU?

[Schizophretard]

Does anybody know if SWITCH will include VIRTUAL CONSOLE? Or did VC die with WIIU?

 

I don't think the details on that have been stated but it wouldn't make sense to not include it. If anything it would make more sense to expand it like Game Cube games for an example.

[Flojomojo]

Does anybody know if SWITCH will include VIRTUAL CONSOLE? Or did VC die with WIIU?

Nintendo knows, but they're not telling.

 

I don't think the default controllers we have seen in the Switch promo would be very good for Virtual Console. There's no traditional D-Pad built in.

 

The trickle of Virtual Console releases on Wii U and 3DS seems to have mostly stopped. It seems entirely possible they're offloading the retro scene onto other products than Switch, like the NES Classic.

 

I like Virtual Console on my 3DS best.

[Osgeld]

I don't think the default controllers we have seen in the Switch promo would be very good for Virtual Console. There's no traditional D-Pad built in.

 

I often find myself using the analog stick in emulators anyway, just kind of burned in my head then it clicks, "oh yea there's a dpad"

 

point being its not the hardest thing in the world

[Schizophretard]

I don't think the default controllers we have seen in the Switch promo would be very good for Virtual Console. There's no traditional D-Pad built in.

 

That isn't too much different than the default controllers of the Wii not being ideal and using the Classic Controller or Classic Controller Pro instead which in the Switch preview had a variant of with a D-pad.

 

President Tatsumi Kimishima also spoke of add-ons:

 

“By no means was that everything,” "It may be appropriate to call them accessories. Or it might be better to call them add-on hardware. It’s probably more correct to call them accessories. You can assume that there will be a wider array."

 

So, it is possible that the wide array of add-ons could include different kinds of JoyCons that make the Switch modular like in some of their patents that show things like switching out buttons like the D-pad. The default buttons are to sell the gimmick of splitting the controls into two identical JoyCons for multiplayer which means they have to be default to encourage studios to develop games that use them but I also think it is likely that they won't just use detachable controllers for that but for different JoyCons like ones with D-pads and other kinds of buttons. In other words, it is probably like how the Wii Remote was modular by being housed in different things like guns, wheels, etc. but this time instead of the controller it is the screen that gets housed in different kinds of JoyCons.

 

So, they have already shown an optional controller with a D-pad for when in console mode and therefore there may also be optional JoyCons with a D-pad for when in handheld mode. Besides, even if the D-pad on the Switch Controller Pro turns out to be the only one we get out of the Switch it being there at all seems like they have planned uses for it other than what can be done with just the buttons like how they are on the JoyCons because if they didn't then the Switch Controller Pro might as well just have the same buttons in place of the D-pad. One of those likely planned uses for that D-pad is its original one, directional movement.

[BillLoguidice]

I think it's a lock we'll have the Virtual Console for the Switch. It's all a question of whether or not we'll get a much-needed revamp of the store and account system. I'm hoping that all this time in development for the hardware gave them time to really nail down the software side this time. Perhaps Nvidia was providing some assistance in that regard as well.

[Flojomojo]

One would think the Nintendo Account changes, including some cross-buy between the two eShops, and cloud connections for Miitomo, would incidate some progress in that direction. I sure hope so.

 

As for add-on controllers, that's the single thing I hate most about the Wii and Wii U. It's all so cluttered and haphazard. Having to buy a separate Pro or Classic controller, to play SNES games, downloaded from the eShop's Virtual Console, yeeesh. My Wii stuff looks like a Barbie Dream House, like it's full of tiny plastic shoes and other little-used junk.

 

Christmas is coming, I can tell... along with its goddamned clutter hell. Bah, humbug!

[Atariboy]

This doesn't really have anything to do with the Switch, but all this talk of the Virtual Console reminds me how disappointed I was last time around after the excellent Kirby's Dream Collection. I thought we'd see the Wii supplied with some other easy releases like this that collected Virtual Console titles, but they never did.

 

So I wish they'd go the Kirby's Dream Collection route and keep the Wii U going at retail through next year with some collections, alongside Zelda and further Nintendo Selects rereleases. I know I'd buy a $30 Metroid release with all the 2D entries on disc, for an example of one that surely would be popular (They have a Wii U Game Boy emulator even though they've never been sold digitally on the Wii U VC, as seen by the timed demos on Super Smash Brothers).

Edited December 4, 2016 by Atariboy

[godslabrat]

The online marketplace has matured a lot since the Wii launched, and the "Wii Shop" now seems rather quaint by today's standards. Rather than release a few titles a week, Nintendo should offer the entire catalog up front, on Day One. This would give the people the nostalgia fix that Nintendo monetizes so well, AND it would help soften a weak launch lineup. Granted, I have no way of knowing if the Switch's launch lineup will be weak, but history does encourage that assumption.

 

Using four-way buttons as a d-pad would be tough. A lot of those games are broken if you find a way to press Up+Down or Left+Right at the same time.

[Atariboy]

It's just hitting a diagonal then, which is something you can do with the + style d-pad as well. How would it cause issues there? If anything, I would think with 4 distinct buttons that it would be easier not to accidentally trigger a diagonal for something such as Pac-Man.

 

And I don't see the point in doing that with the Virtual Console. A gradual roll-out that spreads out their limited content maximizes sales. Give a healthy launch lineup of say 20 popular classics, but leave plenty in reserve as well. There's sales value in giving each game its moment in the sun, where as 90% of their lineup would just get lost in the crowd if it appeared day 1 and had to compete for dollars with hits like Super Mario Bros. 3.

 

Go the other route and while names like Zelda will still sell throughout the life of the Switch, any significant VC enthusiasm would be over after the launch window.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Atariboy

[Andromeda Stardust]

It's just hitting a diagonal then, which is something you can do with the + style d-pad as well. How would it cause issues there? If anything, I would think with 4 distinct buttons that it would be easier not to accidentally trigger a diagonal for something such as Pac-Man.

 

+1. I never hit diagonals by accident with button clusters. They are closer together than an SNES pad though so should be easy to do if you need to.

 

They could also disable opposite simultaneous presses in software if they want. Most USB controller adapters simply register a diagonal if you mash all four directions (lots of shitty clone controllers let you do this) since one input overrides the other. A better way would be to null the inputs, ie invalid inputs like L+R or U+D cancel each other and not respond. Or just let the gamer go nuts and try to break stuff. A VC menu option to enable or disable simultaneous presses would be great.

[Schizophretard]

I think the main problem I would have using the buttons as a D-pad would be that every press would require me to lift my thumb instead of sliding it around on a D-pad. I think Nintendo should have made it and the buttons on Joy-Con( R ) similar to the updated split D-pad on the DualShock 4 but instead of being squares that come to points in the center they would be more circular like buttons that come to points in the center that still have the markings to identify the buttons. So, Joy-Con(L) would have a more circular split D-pad with the buttons marked for up down left right and Joy-Con( R ) would have a more circular split D-pad with the buttons marked for X A B Y. Then it would have a more proper D-pad that could still be used as buttons, could still be used for multiplayer while using separate Joy-Cons, and would have a dual D-pad symmetry similar to the Virtual Boy controller. That said, I think instead of making a more one size fits all kind of default controls like that they will make it more modular like their patents but instead of loose buttons that could be lost it will be different whole Joy-Cons.

[Atariboy]

Sorry Godslabrat, I misread your post. Obviously inputs like Up+Down don't correspond to a diagonal input.

[Atariboy]

The online marketplace has matured a lot since the Wii launched, and the "Wii Shop" now seems rather quaint by today's standards. Rather than release a few titles a week, Nintendo should offer the entire catalog up front, on Day One. This would give the people the nostalgia fix that Nintendo monetizes so well, AND it would help soften a weak launch lineup. Granted, I have no way of knowing if the Switch's launch lineup will be weak, but history does encourage that assumption.

 

With the latest rumors that GameCube titles will be represented on the Switch Virtual Console, I personally think a great way to introduce this would be as many launch titles as Nintendo could clear for each Nintendo platform that will be covered.

 

But that sounds almost like it would be too much fun. I'm afraid they'll likely do the staggered platform roll out again. So rather than having all logical Nintendo home platforms represented on day 1 with at least a game or two for each (NES through GCN and maybe the Wii, along with the Game Boy family), I bet we'll start back with just NES/SNES games and take another 3-4 years before all the Nintendo systems they've represented in the past on the Virtual Console have reappeared.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Atariboy

[Flojomojo]

I'm with AtariBoy, we have seen this enough times to "know" that Nintendo won't dump everything for sale on the first day ...

 

UNLESS they go for some kind of subscription deal like Netflix. That would be pretty compelling to me, assuming the price was right and they could lock things down sufficiently to protect their IP.

 

They're pretty serious about security on the 3DS, and recently started offering bounties for exploits: https://hackerone.com/nintendo

[godslabrat]

I'm with AtariBoy, we have seen this enough times to "know" that Nintendo won't dump everything for sale on the first day ...

 

UNLESS they go for some kind of subscription deal like Netflix. That would be pretty compelling to me, assuming the price was right and they could lock things down sufficiently to protect their IP.

 

They're pretty serious about security on the 3DS, and recently started offering bounties for exploits: https://hackerone.com/nintendo

I'm on the fence about a subscription deal for video games. Just seems a little too "Sega Channel" to me. I like knowing I have that game for AT LEAST as long as the console itself lives and breathes.

But maybe, if the price were right...

[Flojomojo]

I'm on the fence about a subscription deal for video games. Just seems a little too "Sega Channel" to me. I like knowing I have that game for AT LEAST as long as the console itself lives and breathes.

But maybe, if the price were right...

 

That's certainly a reasonable stance. I would like for Nintendo to have a revenue stream, and maybe such a deal would entice some of their customers who only buy a game or two per year. I pay the annual fees for Playstation and Xbox without a second thought, not because I'm a big online gamer, but because of all the freebies that come with it. I would hope they'd be able to craft something attractive to many people.

 

I would have LOVED to have had Sega Channel in the early-mid 1990s, just for the variety. Nowadays we have so much stuff from which to choose. Sony is offering their $99 deal for a year of Playstation Now again, and even though I have the network bandwidth and money, I simply don't have the time to play all those long PS3 games they're offering. I don't even have time to buy the stuff I already bought.

 

What I really really want is to retire and read all these books, play all these games, practice all that music, maybe watch a TV show or two.

[BillLoguidice]

I'm on the fence about a subscription deal for video games. Just seems a little too "Sega Channel" to me. I like knowing I have that game for AT LEAST as long as the console itself lives and breathes.

But maybe, if the price were right...

 

I consider PSN and Xbox Live Gold subscription deals. I don't mind paying the annual price because besides the other features, you also get multiple "free" games a month. I also used to subscribe to EA Access on Xbox One, which for $30 a year would give you unlimited access to a set, but growing library of games, as well as early access to and time with upcoming games. That was a fair deal, but I wasn't playing it enough to justify it. In any case, I'd like to see Nintendo do SOMETHING like that stuff with the Switch.

[Osgeld]

i dont do subscriptions, they remind me of the old BMG 99 cents for 1000000000 cd's deal but I do buy almost all my modern games online unless they are HUGE (looking at you fallout 4 and gta 5)

[Andromeda Stardust]

Sorry Godslabrat, I misread your post. Obviously inputs like Up+Down don't correspond to a diagonal input.

Pressing L+R on a USB pad usually registers as simply R. Pressing U+D would register as U and pressing U+D+L+R would register as diagonal R+U. Like those crappy crappy Yobo USB NES pad clones I bought at GameXchange. Even the nice RetroUSB adapters do this too if I pair it with a crappy Yobo NES clone controller with the Dpad that lets you press all fours. Since the USB controllers process the Dpad as two axes (9 possible positions) rather than four discrete buttons (2^4 discrete combinations), opposite simultaneous directions override and generally the plus side of the axis gets priority over the minus side.

 

I think the main problem I would have using the buttons as a D-pad would be that every press would require me to lift my thumb instead of sliding it around on a D-pad.

You can easily slide around on the diamond without lifting your thumb, assuming the buttons are convex and not placed stupidly high.

[Andromeda Stardust]

I'm with AtariBoy, we have seen this enough times to "know" that Nintendo won't dump everything for sale on the first day ...

 

UNLESS they go for some kind of subscription deal like Netflix. That would be pretty compelling to me, assuming the price was right and they could lock things down sufficiently to protect their IP.

 

They're pretty serious about security on the 3DS, and recently started offering bounties for exploits: https://hackerone.com/nintendo

Link not working on the Wii-U: https://hackerone.com/browser-not-supported.html