When joysticks got replaced with gamepads

[Osgeld]

in the left vs right argument I say it takes more dexterity to actuate individual buttons with fingers than it does to ham fist a joystick in 4-8 vaguely different directions

 

especially in later games, oh gee I got to slap a joystick around and manage 8 buttons at once, which would be my preference (if I were right handed, which i am not)

Edited November 4, 2016 by Osgeld

[MaximRecoil]

 

 

Maybe for multi-button fighting games, or head-to-head contests like Joust.

 

Classic-era arcade machines, from when home consoles had joysticks, weren't set up that way.

 

Plenty of them were set up that way. Defender is about as classic as you can get; the joystick is on the left. Space Invaders is also about as classic as you can get; the joystick is on the left (Midway version uses buttons in place of the joystick, still on the left though). Stargate, Donkey Kong, Donkey Kong Jr., Punch-Out, Popeye, Mario Bros., Galaga, Galaxian, and many others all had the joystick on the left. And by the time JAMMA came along in '85, practically all joystick/button games had the joystick on the left. No arcade game that I know of had the joystick on the right; it was on the left or in the center.

 

Do you have any other reasons because arcade games have an incentive to favor the minority left handed players. They are designed to generate income, so shortening play-times by having controls favor the minority of players helps. See this post http://atariage.com/forums/topic/258513-when-joysticks-got-replaced-with-gamepads/?p=3622210. For example, you could say that the dominant hand, the right hand in most people, being better at most things should do most of the work. And some games have lots of buttons for the right hand eg. defender. And some earlier arcade games only had one-dimensional two way controls for the left hand while the right hand was very busy with thrust, hyperspace, and/or rapid fire or flapping in joust. But then someone else could argue that survival and character movement being the most important part of a game should be controlled by the dominant hand on a multi-directional joystick/pad, with the weaker hand for other functions.

 

A joystick on the left doesn't favor left-handed players, it favors right-handed players. Operating the buttons not only requires more dexterity than operating a 2-, 4-, or 8-way digital joystick, but you can also tap buttons faster with your dominant hand. There was no conspiracy, which is proven by the fact that trackball games usually had the trackball on the right, and that's because operating a trackball requires more dexterity than operating buttons or a digital joystick.

 

If the joystick on the left favored left-handed players, then I'd be horrible at videogames, because I'm not even close to being ambidextrous. But a joystick or D-pad on the left has never bothered me in the least, and on arcade games with the joystick in the center, I still use my left hand. I can beat Ikari Warriors without losing a single life, and that joystick is a rotary one, which means you rotate the knob to aim your gun, and use the normal joystick function for walking. Ikari Warriors actually has ambidextrous controls, but I always use the buttons on the right and control the joystick with my left hand. My late friend Corey, who was also right-handed, and who was as good at the game as I am, always had a bizarre way of doing it. He used the buttons on the left, but with his right hand (which he crossed under his left arm; his left hand controlled the rotary joystick of course).

Edited November 4, 2016 by MaximRecoil

[mr_me]

No conspiracy, but Donkey Kong does favor left handed players. The best donkey kong players in the world have a higher percentage of lefties than the average population. And that doesn't mean right handed players can't be good at donkey kong, it just means they would be even better if they were left handed. It does depend on the game like you suggested. Individual preference is learned. You might even play pac-man left handed. And you might be terrible with right handed joysticks. Other right handers might be the opposite, terrible with left handed joysticks.

[empsolo]

Except Neurological studies conducted during the NES craze showed unequivocally that the above assertions are without any sort of merit. Rather the layout works because the signals coming from the hemispheres of the brain that control movement and action inputs respectively do not have to cross hemispheres when using a standard modern button layout.

 

 

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[+5-11under]

I just tested my button mashing ability with left hand versus right hand (I'm right handed). I got virtually the same results either way (and about the same as I could do in highschool with a calculator:1 + 1 =============== ).

 

I also know that my right hand is better at controlled movement.

 

Given those two, I prefer controls on the right, buttons on the left. Note that I have virtually no use for games that require regular and continuous use of more than 2 buttons, so that probably plays a factor.

 

A few other notes...

 

I've done a bit of searching, but haven't found much scientific evidence that suggests one hand should be better than the other for certain tasks. If someone has some good links on the subject, that'd be cool. I think, however, that training is a bigger aspect here than what science says should be the best way. It's also more complicated, because not only is the control varying left-right, there is also a change in controls, i.e. joystick-pad.

 

I found a site that mentioned guitar. My right hand controls the frets, and yes, it took a fair bit of training to get my hand to go exactly where I needed it to go. That said, I can't underestimate the level of control that is required for the right hand. I think when playing guitar, my right hand is performing the more nuanced task... which leads to...

 

I like what someone already mentioned... it depends on the task at hand. My right hand is better than my left hand for fine movements and for strength. The ideal solution (ignoring how I've already been trained) would be to use my right hand for the most complicated task. Often this will be for the controller, but there may be cases where the button pushing requires the more skilled hand.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Do you have any other reasons because arcade games have an incentive to favor the minority left handed players. They are designed to generate income, so shortening play-times by having controls favor the minority of players helps. See this post http://atariage.com/forums/topic/258513-when-joysticks-got-replaced-with-gamepads/?p=3622210. For example, you could say that the dominant hand, the right hand in most people, being better at most things should do most of the work. And some games have lots of buttons for the right hand eg. defender. And some earlier arcade games only had one-dimensional two way controls for the left hand while the right hand was very busy with thrust, hyperspace, and/or rapid fire or flapping in joust. But then someone else could argue that survival and character movement being the most important part of a game should be controlled by the dominant hand on a multi-directional joystick/pad, with the weaker hand for other functions.

Yes, multiple buttons = multiple fingers and more dexterity.

 

in the left vs right argument I say it takes more dexterity to actuate individual buttons with fingers than it does to ham fist a joystick in 4-8 vaguely different directions

 

especially in later games, oh gee I got to slap a joystick around and manage 8 buttons at once, which would be my preference (if I were right handed, which i am not)

Exactly.

 

Except Neurological studies conducted during the NES craze showed unequivocally that the above assertions are without any sort of merit. Rather the layout works because the signals coming from the hemispheres of the brain that control movement and action inputs respectively do not have to cross hemispheres when using a standard modern button layout.

 

 

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Nice. Scientific empirical evidence suggests that left hand to move around and right hand to perform action makes logical sense.

 

Another thing I might add: Typical run and jump games. Take Donkey Kong for instance. Generally if you jump from a standing start, you jump straight up and do now move sideways. Jump from a moving start, and your character moves laterally. Okay, Mario has just climbed the ladder and there is a double barrel fast approaching. Tilt joystick and jump simultaneously. Chances are your dominant hand actuates before your recessive hand. So your intention to jump in a direction (because jumping straight up is enough to clear a single barrel is not enough to clear a double) fails.

 

Okay having thought this out, the end result was not what I expected. You realy want to actuate the joystick before the button, not after. Maybe left-handed DK players are better IDK, but DK is a one-button game. You need the extra dexterity for multiple buttons so Arcade and Dpad layout still in IMO.

 

No conspiracy, but Donkey Kong does favor left handed players. The best donkey kong players in the world have a higher percentage of lefties than the average population. And that doesn't mean right handed players can't be good at donkey kong, it just means they would be even better if they were left handed. It does depend on the game like you suggested. Individual preference is learned. You might even play pac-man left handed. And you might be terrible with right handed joysticks. Other right handers might be the opposite, terrible with left handed joysticks.

This wasn't the conclusion I intended to arrive at, but you may have a point. Being right handed, I am equallying good (ambidextrous) at single button games using either hand. But for multiple buttons, I still need lefthand joystick.

[mr_me]

Except Neurological studies conducted during the NES craze showed unequivocally that the above assertions are without any sort of merit. Rather the layout works because the signals coming from the hemispheres of the brain that control movement and action inputs respectively do not have to cross hemispheres when using a standard modern button layout.

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The 'assertion' was suggesting that the dominant hand is better than the non dominant hand, assuming practice and training being equal. Would like to see these studies, do you have a link?

[MaximRecoil]

No conspiracy, but Donkey Kong does favor left handed players. The best donkey kong players in the world have a higher percentage of lefties than the average population.

 

Not that that's a big enough sample size to mean anything, but what's your source for that assertion? Who are the best? The top 10? Top 20? Top 50? Top 100? How would you even go about finding out whether they are right- or left-handed without interviewing all of them?

 

 

 

And that doesn't mean right handed players can't be good at donkey kong, it just means they would be even better if they were left handed.

 

Everyone who can consistently reach the "kill screen" is on the ~same skill level. There is no getting better. A higher score doesn't mean they have more gameplaying skill (i.e., progressing-while-avoiding-enemies skill), it means they've found a better way to "point press". The act of "point pressing" itself in Donkey Kong is a low-skill affair, e.g., standing close to the Gorilla's foot and repeatedly jumping. The same applies to "point pressing" in Ikari Warriors. I can run straight through the game without losing a life and get about 1,350,000 points, or I can intentionally lose all my lives (which is part of "point pressing") and get an extra ~200,000 points. Neither one requires more gameplaying skill than the other. You do need to find the point-pressing opportunities, but that has nothing to do with being right- or left-handed.

 

 

 

It does depend on the game like you suggested. Individual preference is learned. You might even play pac-man left handed. And you might be terrible with right handed joysticks. Other right handers might be the opposite, terrible with left handed joysticks.

 

I can barely write my name legibly with my left hand, and I find it awkward even trying to light a Zippo left-handed. I definitely can't use a mouse or trackball left-handed worth a damn. If I don't find using a digital joystick with my left hand even remotely difficult/awkward, I have a hard time imagining how useless someone's left hand would have to be in order for them to have difficulties with a digital joystick or D-pad.

 

 

I just tested my button mashing ability with left hand versus right hand (I'm right handed). I got virtually the same results either way (and about the same as I could do in highschool with a calculator:1 + 1 =============== ).

 

My best score on this test was 57 taps in 10 seconds for my left hand, and 74 for my right. But more important than the difference in speed was the difference in comfort, i.e., it felt awkward and uncomfortable tapping with my left, and I could feel it in my wrist muscles, while I was perfectly comfortable tapping with my right.

[empsolo]

The 'assertion' was suggesting that the dominant hand is better than the non dominant hand, assuming practice and training being equal. Would like to see these studies, do you have a link?

Right here: http://jneurosci.org/content/jneuro/30/10/3640.full.pdf

 

Specifically the discussion is on on spatial movements and how that side of your brain is connected to your left specifically.

 

 

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[Andromeda Stardust]

A few other notes...

 

I found a site that mentioned guitar. My right hand controls the frets, and yes, it took a fair bit of training to get my hand to go exactly where I needed it to go. That said, I can't underestimate the level of control that is required for the right hand. I think when playing guitar, my right hand is performing the more nuanced task... which leads to...

A standard guitar you fret with your left hand and strum with your right. Many acoustic steel string guitars are built symmetric and you only need to replace the nut at the headstock with a left-handed version, since it needs to be strung in reverse order.

 

For electrics with wammy bars or anything with an asymmetric shape, conversion to left hand would be awkward or difficult. I think a lot of left handed players learn playing in the standard right hand position anyway. Very rarely I've ever seen a musician playing left-handed, but I don't specifically look for such instance and may not notice unless it was pointed out.

 

Okay I looked it up and it's a bit more complex than just swapping out the nut and reversing the strings. Very odd that some musicians even learned to play right hand guitars upside down without reversing the strings...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musicians_who_play_left-handed

 

Also per the wiki article Jimi Hendrix' dad refused to let him play left handed. Sad. And now we're completely OT.

 

Right here: http://jneurosci.org/content/jneuro/30/10/3640.full.pdf

 

Specifically the discussion is on on spatial movements and how that side of your brain is connected to your left specifically.

 

 

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A summary in layman's terms would be nice. I read the first paragraph; didn't process much of it.

[Flojomojo]

Here are a few things I found interesting. I think handedness is a key part of the shift from joysticks to gamepads, along with economy, and increasing complexity of multi-button games.

 

1. Shigeru Miyomoto, the "father of Mario," favors his left hand for writing, according to this, though he's not fully left-handed.

 

 

2. This is a picture of Gunpei Yokoi, the late "father of the Game Boy" and designer of the Game and Watch toys that marked the first appearance of the D-pad on the left that I know of. He appears to be right-handed, at least according to my three assumptions about this photo: that it was not flipped, that he wears his watch on his left wrist because he's right handed, and his pens are in his left sleeve pocket because he writes with his left hand. The part in his hair on the left side also implies he combed it with his right hand.

 

 

3. An interesting discussion on Reddit, "why is the D-pad on the left," with lots of interesting, readable links. Of note is a link to another question, "why is WASD the default for FPS control." It wasn't always the case, which sometimes makes it extra difficult to get into old PC games.

 

4. The source for the "it might be easier to cross your hands to play Donkey Kong so you can use your right hand on the joystick" idea that I remembered, but could not place. It is from Ken Uston's "Score! Beating the Top 16 Video Games, © 1982. It's amazing to see the basic things we all take for granted, that are now part of the gamer's vocabulary, which might not have been obvious in 1982.

 

Here are some relevant excerpts:

 

 

I assume Ken Uston eventually learned to control the action of NES games with the D-pad under his left thumb before his sudden death in 1987.

[Flojomojo]

Plenty of them were set up that way. Defender is about as classic as you can get; the joystick is on the left. Space Invaders is also about as classic as you can get; the joystick is on the left (Midway version uses buttons in place of the joystick, still on the left though). Stargate, Donkey Kong, Donkey Kong Jr., Punch-Out, Popeye, Mario Bros., Galaga, Galaxian, and many others all had the joystick on the left. And by the time JAMMA came along in '85, practically all joystick/button games had the joystick on the left. No arcade game that I know of had the joystick on the right; it was on the left or in the center.

 

Pro tip: selectively quoting people is what assholes do. Here's what I actually said:

Maybe for multi-button fighting games, or head-to-head contests like Joust.

Classic-era arcade machines, from when home consoles had joysticks, weren't set up that way. They often placed the single joystick in the center, and duplicated the action buttons on either side for ambidextrous play.

[mr_me]

There are lots of elite donkey kong players that are right handed and many left handed. You just have to find an autograph signing video to see. But like someone suggested there are other factors to making an elite player, maybe better to do a study of average players. It does show, along with the guys button tapping tests, that the weaker hand can be trained to perform well. Modern gamepads and guitars present lots of complex action for both hands and we only have one right hand (for us right handers). So the left hand is trained to perform without issue. Looking at all the arcade games I still think many if not most present the most functions and/or more important functions to the right hand, regardless of where the joystick is (Donkey Kong being one of the exceptions). Back to the gamepad that established the standard. The NES two button gamepad being the way it is probably doesnt matter, only that some people will have to retrain their hands.

 

Edit: Gunpei Yokoi, who invented the nintendo d-pad is right handed. His patent sketches did have the dpad on the right. It was reversed for donkey kong. Donkey kong was retrofitted to an existing cabinet which was previously a shootemup with a one dimensional control joystick on the left. Miyamoto's left handedness doesn't matter https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja5GNzmUhho. NES being left handed is likely just an accident.

Edited November 4, 2016 by mr_me

[Flojomojo]

Conclusion: we adapt and learn (or stop gaming), and the market follows the leader.

[MaximRecoil]

 

Pro tip: selectively quoting people is what assholes do. Here's what I actually said:

 

That's comically ironic. Here is what I said:

 

 

 

Plenty of them were set up that way. Defender is about as classic as you can get; the joystick is on the left. Space Invaders is also about as classic as you can get; the joystick is on the left (Midway version uses buttons in place of the joystick, still on the left though). Stargate, Donkey Kong, Donkey Kong Jr., Punch-Out, Popeye, Mario Bros., Galaga, Galaxian, and many others all had the joystick on the left. And by the time JAMMA came along in '85, practically all joystick/button games had the joystick on the left. No arcade game that I know of had the joystick on the right; it was on the left or in the center.

 

Does the "bolding" help? In other words, that some joysticks were in the center isn't in contention, thus, no need for me to quote it.

 

In any case, you said:

 

Classic-era arcade machines, from when home consoles had joysticks, weren't set up that way.

 

And I refuted your assertion. Given that you didn't actually address that refutation, nor even anything relevant at all (all you did was put your confusion on public display), your tacit concession on the matter is noted.

Edited November 4, 2016 by MaximRecoil

[Flojomojo]

And I refuted your assertion. Given that you didn't actually address that refutation, nor even anything relevant at all (all you did was put your confusion on public display), your tacit concession on the matter is noted.

Yeah, stick it in your notebook!

[+GoldenWheels]

Guys, guys, calm down....we all know the U-force, followed closely by the Activator, is the best way to play any game.

[empsolo]

A summary in layman's terms would be nice. I read the first paragraph; didn't process much of it.

What it's essentially saying is that the the part of your brain that processes and controls spatial movements has string of nerves that connects it to the left side of your body. If you want that output going to the right side of your body, your brain has to send that information to the other half your brain where that information is reinterpreted and processed so your brain can tell your right side to perform the action.

 

In other words, think of this as a quasi form of input lag.

[Andromeda Stardust]

What it's essentially saying is that the the part of your brain that processes and controls spatial movements has string of nerves that connects it to the left side of your body. If you want that output going to the right side of your body, your brain has to send that information to the other half your brain where that information is reinterpreted and processed so your brain can tell your right side to perform the action.

 

In other words, think of this as a quasi form of input lag.

That actually makes sense then. Using Donkey Kong as the example I used earlier, there's a slight delay between when you actuate the direction with your left hand and jump with your right. As I mentioned before, actuating the button before the joystick results in a missed input because the character jumps straight up. Actuating the joystick before or simultaneously to the button results in the intended movement, a lateral jump.

 

The fact that impirical scientific evidence exists in favor of left hand controlling player movement and right hand controlling player actions, and that Nintendo and other early arcade and console manufacturers actually realised this and designed controls according, going against status quo, really says a lot about the care that went into designing a system. It must have required a lot of testing in house to come to this conclusion.

[mr_me]

What it's essentially saying is that the the part of your brain that processes and controls spatial movements has string of nerves that connects it to the left side of your body. If you want that output going to the right side of your body, your brain has to send that information to the other half your brain where that information is reinterpreted and processed so your brain can tell your right side to perform the action.

 

In other words, think of this as a quasi form of input lag.

I see that it investigates parts of the brain for target identification. It mentions that right hemisphere dominance for this is already established and does further detailed study. I don't see where it discusses right/left hand responses.

 

There's another article in the reddit link posted earlier that discusses right and left hands working together that may be more relevant ("Asymmetric Division of Labor in Human Skilled Bimanual Action"). It talks about how the left hand (in right handed people) often performs setup functions for the more precise right hand. For example in guitar playing the right hand waits for the left hand to setup before strumming. Timing for the left hand is not as important, as long as its not late. In video games where there is a button/direction combo often the more precise right hand waits for the left hand to pick a direction before the right hand presses a button to complete the action. The article talks about how the dominant hand (right in most people) is used for more precise manipulative tasks, and the left hand is used for tasks requiring broader movement. I think this is where people erroneously interpret it to mean the left hand is better than the right for broad movement where its really just a division of labour. Now when I play with a right handed gamepad my left hand is already trained for pressing buttons so it works okay. So that explains how the combo buttons work but it can be programmed differently for right hand joysticks too. The programmer can code the combo so that that a left handed button is pressed first and the right hand pad/joystick quickly follows to complete the task. In fact there are some arcade games programmed this way.

[Nebulon]

Is now a good time to mention that I can score way higher on Pac-Man when I use my right hand instead of my left, even though I use both hands pretty much equally for retro-gaming?

[MaximRecoil]

Come to think of it, there was at least one arcade game, made by Nintendo no less, with the joystick on the right: Arm Wrestling:

 

 

There was a good reason for it too, i.e., it was because in that game you have to rapidly push the joystick to the left or to the right (2-way joystick), which is the same idea as rapidly pressing a button (the joystick doesn't control any directional movement at all in that game). The dominant hand is better at that sort of thing.

[mr_me]

Most Atari arcade games have the move controls on the right hand.

 

[Osgeld]

Most Atari arcade games have the move controls on the right hand.

 

 

yea and the buttons are a foot apart in that example, not a compelling argument if I may say

[MaximRecoil]

Most Atari arcade games have the move controls on the right hand.

 

 

Most? You only gave one example. Can you name any others? By the way, they fixed those wrong-handed controls with Gauntlet Legends and Gauntlet Dark Legacy.

 

Most of the famous/classic Atari arcade games didn't have a joystick at all, and among the ones that did, most were in the center.