When joysticks got replaced with gamepads

[MaximRecoil]

 

There is no right and wrong way. A person's preference is a combination of innate and learned ability. This preference will vary between individuals, and could also vary depending on specific situations.

 

It is wrong relative to the industry norms, in the same way that a car manufacturer switching the gas and brake pedal around would be wrong relative to the industry norms. Some people may prefer the gas pedal to be "wrong-footed", but that is utterly irrelevant.

 

It appears that, for the most part, your argument is predicated on the idea of 'majority rules' (and this may explain why you perceived my earlier statement as non-sequitur). You seem to acknowledge design considerations to some degree, but you don't really seem to be thinking things through to any great extent.

 

It is wrong relative to the industry norms. That isn't an argument, that's a statement of fact.

 

1) You haven't actually established a definitive quantitative industry norm.

 

Yes, I have, i.e., the vast majority of arcade machines with a digital joystick have it on the left or in the center, thus those are the norms, by definition.

 

 

 

Nor have you thoroughly researched the ergonomic and economic drivers behind left-positioned movement controls. Until you do, you can't even begin to make the types of claims you're stating.

 

Utterly irrelevant, as those thing have nothing to do with the definitions of "norm", wrong", and "relative to".

 

The rest of your post is another non sequitur.

[Nebulon]

 

It is wrong relative to the industry norms, in the same way that a car manufacturer switching the gas and brake pedal around would be wrong relative to the industry norms. Some people may prefer the gas pedal to be "wrong-footed", but that is utterly irrelevant.

 

 

It is wrong relative to the industry norms. That isn't an argument, that's a statement of fact.

 

 

Yes, I have, i.e., the vast majority of arcade machines with a digital joystick have it on the left or in the center, thus those are the norms, by definition.

 

 

 

 

Utterly irrelevant, as those thing have nothing to do with the definitions of "norm", wrong", and "relative to".

 

The rest of your post is another non sequitur.

Well, we've firmly established that your favorite word is "irrelevant" and you have a thing for "non sequitur".

 

"It is wrong relative to the industry norms, in the same way that a car manufacturer switching the gas and brake pedal around would be wrong relative to the industry norms." <-- This is a stretch. A rather amusing one too. Your analogy would actually begin to make some sense if they'd turned the joystick 180 degrees.

 

Again, you're simply saying something is wrong, based on the idea of it not conforming to a norm that you have yet to prove. Let's suppose you did come up with the numbers and left-sided stick controls were in the majority. Does that make Gauntlet's control scheme wrong-sided? I would say it doesn't. Why? Because it works really well just the way it is and it has proven itself against its contemporaries in the arcades.

 

A norm doesn't invalidate a design decision if the design is successful. If that were the case, we'd be living a world pretty much devoid of inventive design ideas.

 

Furthermore, you don't know what led to the "countless" left-sided control schemes. It could be that an early arcade machine implemented it and design teams that followed simply used it as a precedent. In the case of Gauntlet Legends, it was developed at least ten years after Gauntlet II. Perhaps the new team wanted to differentiate themselves. Or perhaps they grew up on Nintendo games.

[+5-11under]

It is wrong relative to the industry norms

 

What Nebulon said, or... there's no "right" or "wrong" relative to this industry norm you've decided exists and can't or shouldn't be varied. There are dozens of very different controller layouts for arcade games and consoles. The best ones, I think, allow the user to customize to their abilities to maximize effectiveness.

[MaximRecoil]

Well, we've firmly established that your favorite word is "irrelevant" and you have a thing for "non sequitur".

 

Your non sequitur is dismissed.

 

 

"It is wrong relative to the industry norms, in the same way that a car manufacturer switching the gas and brake pedal around would be wrong relative to the industry norms." <-- This is a stretch. A rather amusing one too. Your analogy would actually begin to make some sense if they'd turned the joystick 180 degrees.

 

First of all, you missed the point of the analogy, which was: something being wrong relative to industry norms. The analogy could have just as easily been: if a company makes metal water pipes intended for plumbing out of sterling silver rather than copper, that would be wrong relative to industry norms.

 

Second, you aren't even correct in your attempted refutation of what you thought the point was. Moving the gas pedal to the left and the brake to the right (i.e., switching them around) is exactly analogous to moving the joystick to the right and the buttons to the left (i.e., switching them around). It isn't a case of turning anything, 180 degrees or otherwise. But again, that's not the point of the analogy anyway.

 

Again, you're simply saying something is wrong, based on the idea of it not conforming to a norm that you have yet to prove.

 

"Yet to prove"? Is that a joke? No one in this thread has been able to name more than two arcade titles (both of which are Gauntlet games) that have a direction-control digital joystick on the right.

 

Let's suppose you did come up with the numbers and left-sided stick controls were in the majority.

 

I don't need to come up with numbers. Anyone who doesn't accept that arcade joysticks were normally on the left or in the center is simply out of touch with reality.

 

Does that make Gauntlet's control scheme wrong-sided? I would say it doesn't. Why? Because it works really well just the way it is and it has proven itself against its contemporaries in the arcades.

 

Yes, it does, relative to the norm. That's a fact, simply by virtue of the definitions of the words I'm using. Facts aren't debatable.

 

The rest of your post is yet another non sequitur.

 

 

What Nebulon said, or... there's no "right" or "wrong" relative to this industry norm

 

False, by definition.

 

you've decided exists

 

Say what? I didn't decide it exists. Do you know what a norm is?

 

norm

noun: norm; noun: the norm

1.

something that is usual, typical, or standard.

If something happens more often than not, it is the norm.

 

and can't or shouldn't be varied.

 

I never said or suggested any such thing, and as such, this is a non sequitur from you.

 

There are dozens of very different controller layouts for arcade games and consoles. The best ones, I think, allow the user to customize to their abilities to maximize effectiveness.

 

And of the ones which have a digital joystick, the vast majority of them have it on the left or in the center, thus, on the left or in the center is the norm, by definition. Any position that is not on the left or in the center is not the norm, by definition, thus it is wrong relative to the norm, by definition.

Edited November 9, 2016 by MaximRecoil

[Flojomojo]

Your non sequitur is dismissed.

 

My hovercraft is full of eels.

[+5-11under]

...

[Osgeld]

Who cares if something happens more often than not? That does not make the "not" wrong.

Yes you rapist communist

[Flojomojo]

I wish KLOV were arranged such that it would be simpler to run some statistics as which games which used which schemes. Counting ambidextrous control panels alongside those that put the stick on the right seems disingenuous.

 

As I see it:

 

In the arcade:

In general for early games, most games put the movement controller (stick or ball) in the center. Some did it on the left.

In later years, stick on the left with (many) buttons on the right became more standard.

Then, arcades died, making this discussion mostly moot.

 

At home:

First, dials and triggers. Mostly ambidextrous, mostly dropped.

Then Atari VCS and Odyssey 2, with right-handed joystick and paddle controls, with single buttons to be operated by the left thumb.

Then Intellivision, Coleco, 5200, 7800 with ambidextrous joysticks, with multiple/duplicate buttons to be operated by either thumb

Then NES, SMS, GameBoy, Genesis, SNES, TG16, PSX, Saturn digital joypads with the movement controls on the left and buttons on the right.

Then analog controls and many configuration options, but the standard is pretty set.

 

In both settings, the early days were the Wild West, you could do anything -- we had trackballs, spinners, flight yokes, bike handles, steering wheels, 49-way joysticks, 8-way joysticks, 4-way joysticks, 2-way joysticks, whackity whack buttons for running, pedals, throttles, light guns, and more ...

 

I feel we only think about "standards" when we find a way to play this stuff in MAME or home versions.

 

The fact that so many arcade games don't work well in MAME unless you have the right controls suggests to me anything except "standards" or right ways to do it.

[+5-11under]

Yes you rapist communist

 

Sorry, you lost me there. Feel free to edit/delete.

[Osgeld]

Sarcasm

[+5-11under]

Time to work. See you in another thread... .

[high voltage]

You missed one! My first exposure to Super Mario Bros, and yes, it has 8 worlds!

 

I still have my childhood copy. Those tiny red mushy buttons work surprisingly well!

I used to own that, loved it. Wonder if it's still going cheap.....checking ebay

[high voltage]

I started gaming with Atari stick, when I got a NES in 1990 (Europe got them late), I had no problems with the pad, I just thought that precise movement was not quite as good as with the stick. But then Mario didn't need that anyway. Run of the mill platform game.

Mind you I like to wind up the NES f**boys, as they take everything so seriously.

[mr_me]

 

...

All of the games I mentioned in my last post use a joystick, including Space Invaders:

 

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/generation-grew-up-space-invaders-now-gaming-children-their-own-180951432/?no-ist

 

Only the version that Bally/Midway was licensed to manufacture used two buttons in place of the joystick. It was Taito's game, and all of the machines they manufactured used a joystick on the left, as you can see in the above link.

 

Actual directional control was on the left. The thrust button, which was on the right, is the equivalent of a gas pedal in a racing game, which requires so little dexterity that it can be perfectly operated with a foot.

...

They already had precedent for joysticks on the left, including the highest-grossing arcade game of all time (according to some sources): Space Invaders.

I agree with you, maybe the controls in those games should also have been reversed. You don't need to use the fire button as much as some people think. Don't knock the foot, some disabled people steer their car with a special foot pedal. Taito Space Invaders was in Japan, Midway Space Invaders was in North America, the version I remember had buttons and no joystick; same thing with Phoenix

 

 

Your non sequitur is dismissed.

...

I don't need to come up with numbers. Anyone who doesn't accept that arcade joysticks were normally on the left or in the center is simply out of touch with reality.

...

Yes, it does, relative to the norm. That's a fact, simply by virtue of the definitions of the words I'm using. Facts aren't debatable.

...

False, by definition.

...

If something happens more often than not, it is the norm.

...

And of the ones which have a digital joystick, the vast majority of them have it on the left or in the center, thus, on the left or in the center is the norm, by definition. Any position that is not on the left or in the center is not the norm, by definition, thus it is wrong relative to the norm, by definition.

 

You can put the joystick wherever you want, What I'm saying is the most important functions should be on the dominant hand. In Donkey Kong its critical that you move your character so not to miss a step, position him exactly so not to lose a life. The single button for jumping is important too, but sometimes you don't jump much. This is why Donkey Kong controls are backwards. Not because of some norm which may or may not exist. Of course you may disagree.

 

But if you're concerned with precedence or normal in video games, maybe we can see if such a thing existed. With video games in 1980/81 the most popular game by far was Pac-Man. Every manufacturer wanted to duplicate that success and there weren't many 4/8-way games at the time. So Exidy, Sega, Midway, and Namco made maze games and they were joystick on the right, and button on the left. Atari, Stern, Cinamatronics, Williams, Taito made symmetrical controls. And at that time, it was normal for people to use a joystick with their right hand because of Pac-man. Centuri was all over the place with control panels. Nintendo, Universal and Data East made left handed controls. Maybe left handed controls was normal in Japan but right handed controls may have been normal in North America. And there were certainly plenty of examples of games with right handed controls. And with the evidence we have (show us otherwise), it was normal for people to use their dominant hand on the joystick with symmetrical controls. Donkey Kong was successful, not because or in spite of its controls, but because unlike many of those other games it wasn't another maze game. Had Gauntlet been made with left handed controls, it would have still been successful, just as Donkey Kong [and the NES] was with backwards controls.

 

I'm still interested in objective information on the subject as well as people's personal experience.

 

 

The norm is not always correct; unfortunately there are much more important examples in real life history where the norm was wrong. Change was difficult but necessary.

Edited November 9, 2016 by mr_me

[Newsdee]

arcade players cross their arms so they could work the stick with their (presumably dominant) right hand and use their left hand on the Jump button.

Isn't that the Usborne book on video games? That's the same one that predicted we would be playing games "internationally over the radio" (with a picture of a game of chess with an antenna sticking out the board) and "massively multiplayer games" (picturing a circular pedestal with a crown of joysticks sticking out). It was not too far off!

 

I happen to still have it; not long ago I was playing with an FPGA firmware and tried inverting the controls (buttons=directions) inspired from that book. It WAS challenging!

Edited November 9, 2016 by Newsdee

[Flojomojo]

Isn't that the Usborne book on video games? That's the same one that predicted we would be playing games "internationally over the radio" (with a picture of a game of chess with an antenna sticking out the board) and "massively multiplayer games" (picturing a circular pedestal with a crown of joysticks sticking out). It was not too far off!

 

I happen to still have it; not long ago I was playing with an FPGA firmware and tried inverting the controls (buttons=directions) inspired from that book. It WAS challenging!

 

No, it's Ken Uston's "Score! Beating the Top 16 Video Games" and you can find a yellowed pulpy PDF of it here.

 

I remember the Usborne books well, they were wonderful. A selection of their old computer books are available online for free from the publisher here.

 

Here's the computer game book you remember. Check out the pull-up antennae!

 

 

 

In this illustration, the joystick is on the left and the throttle is on the right. In a jet fighter, the stick is in the center and the throttle is on the left.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

You agree with what? I never said that. There is no meaningful difference in the amount of dexterity required for a 2- or 4-way joystick. Some 8-way joysticks requires a little extra dexterity because they don't have a restrictor to restrict your movement to one of the 8 directions; the most common exception being the Nintendo 8-way joystick like you'll find on Vs. system and Playchoice games. Those have a restrictor like this, so there is no way to miss the diagonals or any other direction.

 

A digital joystick is just a lever-activated on/off switch, and all switches are activated from a central position with a short, straight-line movement, so it's even less "complex" movement patterns than shifting a standard transmission in a vehicle. Analog joysticks need a lot more dexterity than digital joysticks, because there are infinite directions and infinite graduations of movement that you have to control.

 

I have a 3d-printed octagon restrictor similar to that on my Zippy joystick in my Cthulhu based fight stick. Unfortunately the actuation distance on the zippy soft touch micros wasn't long enough to hit the diagonals reliably so I had to modify the actuator with 5 wraps of electrical tape. After that it worked beautifully. I like the feel which is very similar to the four-leaf clover patterns found on dedicated 4-ways. I had an opportunity to play a VS Super Mario Bros / Excite Bite "red tent" arcade machine at the 2014 North Texas Pinball Fest and my heavily modified Zippy stick has a similar feel. I'm not sure if I prefer it over a Sanwa octagon gate with 1mm oversized restrictor though. Quarter circles are doable but definitely feel a bit weird on the 8-leaf clover when I play Super Street Fighter II on it.

 

Anyway the joystick modding rabbit hole is a fun one to explore if you like to tinker with custom sticks.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

This is a non sequitur. Gauntlet's controls are wrong-handed relative to the arcade industry norm. The design team's reasoning would only be relevant if the joysticks in Gauntlet had an unusual function (like with Arm Wrestling's joystick), but they don't. They just make the player's avatar move in the direction the player wants to go, like in countless other arcade games.

 

 

 

Your non sequitur is dismissed.

 

[...]

 

The rest of your post is yet another non sequitur.

 

You must really love to begin every reply this way because it appears to be your favorite vocabulary word. According to wikipedia, there appears to be two conflicting definitions as a literary or logical term:

 

 

Not to be confused with Non sequitur (logic).

A non sequitur (English pronunciation: /ˌnɒnˈsɛkwᵻtər/; Classical Latin: [noːn ˈsɛkᶣɪtʊr] "it does not follow") is a conversational and literary device, often used for comedic purposes. It is something said that, because of its apparent lack of meaning relative to what preceded it,^[1] seems absurd to the point of being humorous or confusing.

 

 

Not to be confused with Non sequitur (literary device).

A non sequitur (Latin for "it does not follow"), in formal logic, is an invalid argument – an argument whose conclusion does not follow from its premises.^[1] In a non sequitur, the conclusion could be either true or false (because there is a disconnect between the premises and the conclusion), but the argument nonetheless asserts the conclusion to be true and is thus fallacious.

 

I do not believe it was the posters' intention to be humorous nor were their statements necessarily invalid either. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but you seem to be using this buzzword as a catch-all to invalidate any statement you do not specifically agree with. NES Mini thread got derailed pretty bad as a result and I hope it is not your intention to do the same here.

 

I agree with many of the sentiments you have posted in the thread regarding the industry standard of controlling character movements with the left hand and character actions with the right hand, but quite frankly the "non-sequitur" rebuttals are getting long in the tooth.

 

My two cents. Now back to discussions of joystick vs dpad...

[Andromeda Stardust]

You missed one! My first exposure to Super Mario Bros, and yes, it has 8 worlds!

 

I still have my childhood copy. Those tiny red mushy buttons work surprisingly well!

 

I used to own that, loved it. Wonder if it's still going cheap.....checking ebay

I think you'll be sorely disappointed on pricing of the original. Loose or NIB Super Mario Bros mini classics edition from the late 90s are still quite affordable though if you just want to play it and relive your childhood. I find the Dpads a bit hard to use on the minis though considering my large man hands.

 

I have a loose and sealed Mini as well as my original childhood Super Mario, Donkey Kong, Mario Bros, and Cement Factory which I've kept for nearly 30 years. Sadly Nintendo merged the Jump and Time buttons on the mini edition, meaning a certain button combo

 

hold Jump when pressing Start to instantly warp to loop 3 (with Bullet Bills and Likatus)

 

no longer works on the Mini edition.

 

Funny thing Nintendo appears to have gone full circle, ditching the Dpad for a C-button style button cluster with the Nintendo Switch Joycon controller:

 

It will be fun playing VC games on the button cluster (if Nintendo allows it). I do not consider said control scheme superior to the Dpad but a button only control panel or Gamepad is completely doable and responsive. It also allows pressing opposite directions allowing for exploits such as moonwalking in Super Mario Bros and other weird bugs in various games.

[MaximRecoil]

You must really love to begin every reply this way because it appears to be your favorite vocabulary word.

 

Ironically, this is a non sequitur.

 

According to wikipedia, there appears to be two conflicting definitions as a literary or logical term:

 

I do not believe it was the posters' intention to be humorous nor were their statements necessarily invalid either.

 

"Non sequitur" is Latin for "it does not follow". Anything which doesn't logically follow from that which preceded it is a non sequitur, and is inherently invalid in an argument (the formal logic sense of the term is more specific; I haven't used it in that sense here):

 

 

non se·qui·tur

a conclusion or statement that does not logically follow from the previous argument or statement.

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but you seem to be using this buzzword as a catch-all to invalidate any statement you do not specifically agree with.

 

This is another non sequitur.

 

NES Mini thread got derailed pretty bad as a result and I hope it is not your intention to do the same here.

 

It didn't get derailed at all. Discussing the capabilities (or lack thereof) of a product (which includes discussing the merits of those [missing] capabilities) is obviously pertinent in a thread announcing its upcoming release.

 

I agree with many of the sentiments you have posted in the thread regarding the industry standard of controlling character movements with the left hand and character actions with the right hand, but quite frankly the "non-sequitur" rebuttals are getting long in the tooth.

 

Why are you telling me that? Me typing "non sequitur" is just an effect. The cause is: people posting replies to me which don't logically follow from anything I've said.

Edited November 10, 2016 by MaximRecoil

[Flojomojo]

News flash: this is a web forum about old video games, not a law journal. Few if any of us are impressed by amateur logicians, and dismissing friendly people's discussion is just rude.

 

Nobody has to be neurotypical to post here, but it's a lot more pleasant when people make an effort to be nice.

[CatPix]

 

I think you'll be sorely disappointed on pricing of the original. Loose or NIB Super Mario Bros mini classics edition from the late 90s are still quite affordable though if you just want to play it and relive your childhood. I find the Dpads a bit hard to use on the minis though considering my large man hands.

 

I have a loose and sealed Mini as well as my original childhood Super Mario, Donkey Kong, Mario Bros, and Cement Factory which I've kept for nearly 30 years. Sadly Nintendo merged the Jump and Time buttons on the mini edition, meaning a certain button combo

 

hold Jump when pressing Start to instantly warp to loop 3 (with Bullet Bills and Likatus)

 

no longer works on the Mini edition.

 

Funny thing Nintendo appears to have gone full circle, ditching the Dpad for a C-button style button cluster with the Nintendo Switch Joycon controller:

 

It will be fun playing VC games on the button cluster (if Nintendo allows it). I do not consider said control scheme superior to the Dpad but a button only control panel or Gamepad is completely doable and responsive. It also allows pressing opposite directions allowing for exploits such as moonwalking in Super Mario Bros and other weird bugs in various games.

 

It depends what is under the plastic.

Playstation D-pad is looking made of 4 separate buttosn but are physically in one piece under the shell.

Also, with today's power, it can be easy to have 4 separate buttons but programming the input so the gamepad only allow 2 buttons at once to be pressed.

 

It's not like having 4 different button is so bad. It's what the Watara Supervision came with in it's first model and it worked fine... much better than their second version with a physical D-pad that was horrible because of the lack of a central point that allowed way too easily to press 4 directions at the same time.

 

[Nebulon]

 

It depends what is under the plastic.

Playstation D-pad is looking made of 4 separate buttosn but are physically in one piece under the shell.

Also, with today's power, it can be easy to have 4 separate buttons but programming the input so the gamepad only allow 2 buttons at once to be pressed.

 

It's not like having 4 different button is so bad. It's what the Watara Supervision came with in it's first model and it worked fine... much better than their second version with a physical D-pad that was horrible because of the lack of a central point that allowed way too easily to press 4 directions at the same time.

 

Ah yes, the four separate buttons. So much for Pac-Man style games -- for me anyway. I tried playing Ms. Pac-Man on the PSP with that configuration and it didn't go well. There's a case in which the plus design is a lot better. The analog stick didn't help either (kept getting hung up on the corners).

[CatPix]

If you have a PSP-1000, the D-pad is very flat and uncomfortable, and indeed a one-piece D-pad over the shell would be better.

later PSP feel better in that regard, but I can agree that Nintendo's + cross is much better. Or round D-pad as seen on the PC-engine.

[Newsdee]

 

No, it's Ken Uston's "Score! Beating the Top 16 Video Games" and you can find a yellowed pulpy PDF of it here.

 

I remember the Usborne books well, they were wonderful. A selection of their old computer books are available online for free from the publisher here.

 

It still have a bunch on the shelf in the next page after "Future games", there's a "Game Variations" page giving the tip to cross hands to make a game harder. I guess it was a common tip back then...