Buy a real nintendo instead...

[Newsdee]

No, no. I thought you were taking a little jab at a certain definition enthused poster.

Well, a bit but I do see where he's coming from and certainly hardware guys do sometimes call it hardware emulation. Which makes it harder to explain the benefits and limitations of each approach.

[Keatah]

The lag from digital TVs is also half the reason why the NES Zapper won't work on them.

 

No. It's because of matrix painting rather than a raster sweep. And that's it.

 

[Keatah]

For playing classic consoles, digital TVs are a downgrade/handicap compared to the CRTs which they were designed to be used with.

 

They're a serious upgrade. And sooner or later everyone will be gaming on them, either through mechanical fail/attrition, or simply renovating the house with new things.

 

If lightgun games don't work, it will be the classic gaming community's task to upgrade and mod them so that they DO work.

 

[Keatah]

The SD2SNES is also the only hardware inplementation of the MSU1 functionality (FMV and SD card storage). That isn't an emulator but expansion hardware.

 

It's emulation through and through if it's a CPLD/FPGA doing the work. But don't take my word for it - ask any pro developer in the kevtris/z3k threads.

[Newsdee]

If lightgun games don't work, it will be the classic gaming community's task to upgrade and mod them so that they DO work.

 

This one is pretty cool, with a good explanation:

http://hackaday.com/2016/08/30/tricking-duck-hunt-to-see-a-modern-lcd-tv-as-crt/

[Keatah]

I think this article was meant to be satire, based upon the comments. Be awesome if it were true, but the push to eliminate lead from tech products due to RoHS compliance, and the fact that making tubes out of a lead-free substitute like pyrex would pass harmful X-radiation from the cathode ray tube which the leaded glass effectively filters out.

 

I would love to get one of those fabled Indonesian CRTs and see how it stacks up to say American made sets. eWaste laws unfortunately prohibit the import of tube TVs. But a vinyl like comeback for tube TVs would be awesome. Until then, tube TVs will continue to be discarded until such time functional sets become valuable on the open market. Currently the supply vastly outstrips the demand such that CRTs are freely discarded curbside or in some cases paid fees for removal, ie the market sale price for a CRT actually has negative value in some municipalities, which often makes ownership of CRTs a liability rather than an asset.

 

That's what everyone around here does. Throws them out for regular trash. Sometimes they sit, and somehow get broken, and the glass migrates across the street over the course of several weeks. Discrete parts end up a block away.

[Newsdee]

It's emulation through and through if it's a CPLD/FPGA doing the work

The MSU1 was written as a spec by Byuu and implemented in hardware for the first time on an FPGA. There is no original hardware to emulate.

[Keatah]

I hope my post didn't look sarcastic; people do refer to "emulation" even in hardware but it doesn't have the issues associated with the software kind.

 

I would like to argue software emulation has less issues.

 

IDK, it's just that over the decades I've seen software emu stay a good solid 5 years ahead of FPGA emulation in more cases than not.

[Keatah]

As far as cleaning contacts - I simply use a light mechanical abrasive like an eraser or paper. A bit of iso alcohol to tidy up and then a professional chemical coating. Deoxit might be expensive, but in this use 1 can will last you hundreds of cleanings.

 

I never use a q-tip because fibers can get left behind which are then mashed into gunk.

 

If washing in a dishwasher it is very very very important to dump deionized / distilled water on the item afterwards. And never just let it air dry. You want to blow off with a high pressure air hose that is also grounded and has a ion emitter to dissipate static.

 

Don't have that? You can shake and blot things dry.

 

Clean and lubed contacts will last a lifetime. I speak from experience. NES units I cleaned the professional way in the 90's are still working - with the dabble of deoxit every 3 or 4 years. Putting a couple of drops on a cartridge and inserting it enough to transfer and distribute it to the contacts.

 

Contacts are moving metal-on-metal pieces and should be treated as such. Harsh chemicals like acids described earlier without aftertreatment is a no-no.

[MaximRecoil]

 

No. It's because of matrix painting rather than a raster sweep. And that's it.

 

 

False. I've already linked to a page which gives a thorough explanation.

 

 

They're a serious upgrade.

 

False. Lag is a downgrade from a real-time display when playing video games. For non-interactive video it doesn't matter, of course.

 

If lightgun games don't work, it will be the classic gaming community's task to upgrade and mod them so that they DO work.

 

That's funny. Or, you could just use a CRT, you know, the display device for which it was designed, and which can actually keep up with it, as opposed to a display device that can't get out of its own way.

 

As far as cleaning contacts - I simply use a light mechanical abrasive like an eraser or paper. A bit of iso alcohol to tidy up and then a professional chemical coating. Deoxit might be expensive, but in this use 1 can will last you hundreds of cleanings.

 

I never use a q-tip because fibers can get left behind which are then mashed into gunk.

 

Q-tips are fine for cleaning card edge contacts, which are pretty much a flat surface. Any fibers left behind can easily be seen and removed. You can also use a paper towel or anything else that's absorbent.

 

If washing in a dishwasher it is very very very important to dump deionized / distilled water on the item afterwards. And never just let it air dry. You want to blow off with a high pressure air hose that is also grounded and has a ion emitter to dissipate static.

 

Static is irrelevant for cleaning 72-pin connectors and card edge connectors in general. There are no ICs in there nor any other component; it's just pieces of metal and plastic.

 

Clean and lubed contacts will last a lifetime. I speak from experience. NES units I cleaned the professional way in the 90's are still working - with the dabble of deoxit every 3 or 4 years. Putting a couple of drops on a cartridge and inserting it enough to transfer and distribute it to the contacts.

 

Contacts are moving metal-on-metal pieces and should be treated as such. Harsh chemicals like acids described earlier without aftertreatment is a no-no.

 

What do you think DeoxIT is? It contains mineral spirits and naphtha, among other things which they list as a "trade secret" (almost certainly an acid of some type, with oxalic being the most likely candidate). There are only two ways to remove oxidation (and DeoxIT is intended to remove oxidation, hence its name): chemicals (most notably, acids) or abrasives. Harsh abrasives are destructive. Acids such as acetic acid (vinegar) and oxalic acid (found in rhubarb and many other edible plants) are not destructive to metal or plastic, but they attack oxidation.

 

Also, pretty much no one in the world lubricates the electrical contacts in video game consoles, and it's especially unnecessary with an OEM ZIF connector in an NES, given that there's no significant friction between the pins and the card edge contacts when you insert the cartridge, which is why it's called "zero insertion force".

Edited November 21, 2016 by MaximRecoil

[keepdreamin]

 

They're a serious upgrade. And sooner or later everyone will be gaming on them, either through mechanical fail/attrition, or simply renovating the house with new things.

 

 

 

 

Absolutely. The impact of input lag has been greatly overblown by folks who believe their own greatness. You can buy a gaming flat panel with a delay as little of 9ms. If someone claims their reflexes are so highly tuned to + or - 9ms where such a display would be detrimental to their gameplay, they're full of BS.

Edited November 21, 2016 by keepdreamin

[Flojomojo]

Ever seen a prison TV? They're made with transparent cases, the kind of thing that was in style in the 1990s, so you can easily see the innards. If I were into having a CRT around (which I am NOT), I would want it to be aesthetically interesting from the outside. Most consumer sets are hulking black or silver boxes.

 

As for cartridges, meh. Especially NES cartridges. They're ugly, bulky and unreliable. I just don't see the value in hoarding a thick grey box to store a few dozen kilobytes of data, and all the ink spilled above about the relative merits of different cleaning solutions for dealing with corroded contacts bums me out big time.

 

History, classic, whatever. They're disposable consumer dross and I'm happy to have moved on.

[Hyperboy]

^^ I have one of these I bought at a thrift store for $5, it even has the inmates ID info etched in the case, It's a 13".

 

Sent from my non beer holding hand.

[MaximRecoil]

 

 

Absolutely. The impact of input lag has been greatly overblown by folks who believe their own greatness. You can buy a gaming flat panel with a delay as little of 9ms. If someone claims their reflexes are so highly tuned to + or - 9ms where such a display would be detrimental to their gameplay, they're full of BS.

 

This is ultracrepidarianism at its finest. There are plenty of people who can consistently pull off "frame-perfect" maneuvers in video games, which means if your timing is off by +/- 1 frame, the maneuver doesn't work. If you watch speed runs, you'll see lots of frame-perfect stunts being done, even live in front of a crowd.

 

9 ms is over half a frame (at 60 Hz), and I like how you cherry-picked the absolute low end which doesn't apply to the vast majority of digital TVs that people own. Do you know what the display lag is for a CRT? It's measured in nanseconds, i.e., the time it takes for electricity to make it through the circuits, which means it effectively displays in "real time".

 

You don't even have to be a world class player to be affected by display lag; in fact, people with average or slow reflexes can be affected worse than people with fast reflexes. Things you do in a video game have a window of opportunity. If you're on the slow side, with a CRT you might be able to just barely make that window of opportunity to be successful. Add 9 ms of lag (with 30 to 40 ms being far more typical) to your already slow reflexes, and then what happens? You miss the window. Some games are more affected by this than others. I already linked to an example where a guy who can consistently beat Mike Tyson in MTPO, and has been able to since he was a kid, can't do it when his NES is hooked to his digital TV. The window is very small when fighting Mike Tyson. He can beat the easier characters, because those have much larger windows. It isn't something you always consciously notice, but it definitely has an effect; it is impossible for it not to have an effect.

Edited November 21, 2016 by MaximRecoil

[icemanxp300]

With my ignore list this thread just zooms by for me LOL.

[Flojomojo]

With my ignore list this thread just zooms by for me LOL.

And that's why you're never going to learn new words, like "ultracrepidarianism."

[Newsdee]

I would like to argue software emulation has less issues.

 

IDK, it's just that over the decades I've seen software emu stay a good solid 5 years ahead of FPGA emulation in more cases than not.

FPGA are behind yes. It's only recently that they're making serious progress in 8bit and 16bit machines. I won't hold my breath for anything 32bit and above, even 16bit CD machines are a bit far off as nobody is publicly looking into it AFAIK.

 

The reason I'm a big fan is that it can deliver something identical to the original with some enhancements (like USB gamepad and SD card support), and extremely low power requirements.

 

I'd think the 2D machines are the most sensible to lag though. 3D is something where PC emulation shines and gives something better than the original (I really like the epsxe option to increase internal resolution).

 

What's holding back an FPGA NES Mini is price though...

Edited November 21, 2016 by Newsdee

[TPA5]

 

 

Absolutely. The impact of input lag has been greatly overblown by folks who believe their own greatness. You can buy a gaming flat panel with a delay as little of 9ms. If someone claims their reflexes are so highly tuned to + or - 9ms where such a display would be detrimental to their gameplay, they're full of BS.

 

Could not have said it better myself. If someone out there has such finely honed reflexes, they should consider a lucrative career as an NHL goalie because they must be in the top percentile of humanity. Otherwise, it's not going to make a spit of difference.

 

 

With my ignore list this thread just zooms by for me LOL.

 

And that's the kind of quality post these threads so desperately need.

[NE146]

Ok it might be overblown a little, but it's just good information to be aware of. Although I can only think of 2 games off the bat that it would probably make a difference for normal people. i.e. the previously mentioned Punchout, but also the Speeder Bike levels in Battletoads where literally split second timing is needed. Although yeah I guess if you couldn't pass those anyway, then what does it matter

Edited November 21, 2016 by NE146

[keepdreamin]

Could not have said it better myself. If someone out there has such finely honed reflexes, they should consider a lucrative career as an NHL goalie because they must be in the top percentile of humanity. Otherwise, it's not going to make a spit of difference.

 

 

 

Some people would have you believe there are superhuman Barry Allens out there in the retro gaming community.

 

For some perspective. The time that passes after a trigger pull in Duck Hunt to register a hit is 33ms. Yes, that quick flash is 33ms. Two ducks adds an extra frame for a flash of 50ms. That's not even counting the frame starting to show a hit animation. So you're looking at 4-5 frames after a trigger pull just to see the duck react.

 

Yet apparently there's folks so highly skilled a time delay more than 3x faster than a screen flash in DH will throw them off their game... GTFOH

[Keatah]

 

Absolutely. The impact of input lag has been greatly overblown by folks who believe their own greatness. You can buy a gaming flat panel with a delay as little of 9ms. If someone claims their reflexes are so highly tuned to + or - 9ms where such a display would be detrimental to their gameplay, they're full of BS.

 

FWIW: I might be aware of any lag above 20-34ms.

 

Additionally all people have about a 25ms awareness time, the time before you fully understand just what happened.

 

One of my LCD rigs gives me 11ms from button press to missile launch. And that is with emulation. Of course it works in the digital domain entirely and the signal is native to the LCD resolution. Measured with the DSLR + LED light method.

[MaximRecoil]

 

Could not have said it better myself. If someone out there has such finely honed reflexes, they should consider a lucrative career as an NHL goalie because they must be in the top percentile of humanity. Otherwise, it's not going to make a spit of difference.

 

Again, people with slow reflexes will be affected by display lag worse than people with fast reflexes. The faster your reflexes are, the more likely it is that you'll make your windows of opportunity even while being handicapped by display lag. Have you ever just barely avoided being killed in a video game? When that happens it means you just barely made the window of opportunity for staying alive in that situation. Add display lag to that situation, and you wouldn't have made the window. It isn't necessarily something you're going to consciously notice; i.e., someone who almost avoided getting killed while playing a video game on a digital TV is probably going to think they were just too slow. But what if they had reacted 30 or 40 ms faster in that situation? Well, they would have had they been using a CRT, because they would have seen the event happen 30 or 40 ms earlier.

 

Digital TVs are a handicap for everyone, and the slower your reflexes are, the worse it will be for you. The average human response time to visual stimulus is 250 ms. Play a video game on a typical digital TV and now your response time has just effectively been increased to 280 to 290 ms, and as high as 320 ms for the "laggiest" TVs. Someone with fast reflexes will effectively be bumped up to average reflexes, someone with average reflexes will be bumped up to slow reflexes, and someone with slow reflexes will be bumped off the chart.

 

Some people would have you believe there are superhuman Barry Allens out there in the retro gaming community.

 

Already refuted, thoroughly. See above.

[TPA5]

 

Again, people with slow reflexes will be affected by display lag worse than people with fast reflexes. The faster your reflexes are, the more likely it is that you'll make your windows of opportunity even while being handicapped by display lag. Have you ever just barely avoided being killed in a video game? When that happens it means you just barely made the window of opportunity for staying alive in that situation. Add display lag to that situation, and you wouldn't have made the window. It isn't necessarily something you're going to consciously notice; i.e., someone who almost avoided getting killed while playing a video game on a digital TV is probably going to think they were just too slow. But what if they had reacted 30 or 40 ms faster in that situation? Well, they would have had they been using a CRT, because they would have seen the event happen 30 or 40 ms earlier.

 

Digital TVs are a handicap for everyone, and the slower your reflexes are, the worse it will be for you. The average human response time to visual stimulus is 250 ms. Play a video game on a typical digital TV and now your response time has just effectively been increased to 280 to 290 ms, and as high as 320 ms for the "laggiest" TVs. Someone with fast reflexes will effectively be bumped up to average reflexes, someone with average reflexes will be bumped up to slow reflexes, and someone with slow reflexes will be bumped off the chart.

 

 

Already refuted, thoroughly. See above.

 

I know you're a pretty big evangelist for CRT TV's, but I'm not. Digital TV's (i.e. LCD/LED TV's) are crisp, clear, and oh-so-nice looking. They're also sexy and thin and fit on my wall. CRT's are none of these things really.

 

Besides, you yourself just said that it "isn't necessarily something you're going to consciously notice". Well if I won't notice it, why even make the argument in the first place? We know you love CRT's and think modern TV's are from the devil, but the plain fact is most people who buy a NES Mini will never notice "display lag" enough to ever even slightly diminish their enjoyment of the console. Fact is I think Nintendo made the obvious, intelligent choice by putting HDMI on the NES Mini. Why on earth would any device released in 2016 use RCA? It's a dead technology designed for dead TV's.

[MaximRecoil]

 

I know you're a pretty big evangelist for CRT TV's, but I'm not. Digital TV's (i.e. LCD/LED TV's) are crisp, clear, and oh-so-nice looking. They're also sexy and thin and fit on my wall. CRT's are none of these things really.

 

Besides, you yourself just said that it "isn't necessarily something you're going to consciously notice". Well if I won't notice it, why even make the argument in the first place?

 

Because it's a handicap; whether you notice it or not is irrelevant. If someone suffered a brain injury which increased their average response time from 250 ms to 320 ms, they would never notice it either, but it will obviously have an effect on activities for which a faster response time results in better performance.

 

Now, the next time you almost avoid a death in a video game, but not quite, you will know that you would have avoided that death had you been using a CRT.

[TPA5]

 

Because it's a handicap; whether you notice it or not is irrelevant. If someone suffered a brain injury which increased their average response time from 250 ms to 320 ms, they would never notice it either, but it will obviously have an effect on activities for which a faster response time results in better performance.

 

Now, the next time you almost avoid a death in a video game, but not quite, you will know that you would have avoided that death had you been using a CRT.

 

I'll grant you that, it is a handicap.

 

 

I still don't care, though. Next time I almost avoid a death I'll.... continue to not care. It's a game. It won't drastically alter the course of my life.