cschell Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Hi, This message is for people who are interested in the Cuttle Cart II and it's serial port connection. I've run into a snag that really annoys me, and I wanted to get some feedback on options. My plan was to use a 2.5mm stereo audio jack as the serial connector, and provide a stereo jack to DB9 cable that could plug into a standard modern serial port. This would provide Gnd, Tx, and Rx, the signals necessary for two way communication without flow control. However, there is a problem with this solution. Because Atari cartridge cases vary in length by a few millimeters, and I don't have a reliable way to get only one size, I cannot make the stereo jack line up with the edge of the cartridge case. This means that I have to cut a huge (~ 1cm) hole in the case so that the stereo plug can mate with the jack. In order to move the jack out towards the edge of the case, I would have to enlarge the PCB, but I know that if I do this, it will not fit in many of the Atari cases. So basically this solution will leave everyone with a big gaping hole in the top of their case. Here are some options on how to deal with this, I'm hoping to get feedback from the potential users of the product on what they would prefer. 1) Leave it as it is, and just cut big holes. (I don't like this personally, as it's a big pain and it's unsightly) 2) Don't cut the hole, let those who actually need the serial port cut it themselves. This way most people will never need the hole as they will never be doing development and won't need the serial link. (Development is really its only purpose.) 3) Replace the stereo jack with a 10 pin straight header on the PCB, such that a PC motherboard internal serial cable can be connected to it. Basically these connectors are 2 rows of 5 pins that stick straight up. Then all that would be required would be a small slot for the cable to come out. People who needed the serial connection would install the cable, and people who did not would leave it disconnected. Connecting and removing the cable would require opening the case, but I'm guessing that most developers would just leave it connected, and everyone else would never connect it. This option does provide the advantage that I might be able to route two more lines to it to provide hardware flow control (DTR/CTS). This option will likely add substantial delay (~4-6 weeks) to product release as I may need to make a prototype board to test it. 4) Drop serial altogether and let the MMC be the only interface. Anyways, those are the options as I see them. If you have another one, feel free to post it. There is very little PCB space, so only very small connectors can be used. (And I don't have room to fit a panel mount connector either.) Please let me know what you think. Thanks, Chad P.S. I will be away most of Thursday, and possibly part of Friday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Leave the serial connection and go with option 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miqorz Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Would USB Impossible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gulag picture radio Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Option 3 seems the most elegant to me. I can't imagine a developer type being afraid to open up a cart to hook up the cable - and besides if it promises even a glimmer of possible new features, it sounds like the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cschell Posted May 15, 2003 Author Share Posted May 15, 2003 USB is not an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adolescent Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 I think #2 is the best option. If there was actually a place to mount a DB9 connector on the cart then I would say #3, but I don't think it's possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galaga_Freak Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 If a developer needed to open the case for option 2 or 3 in order to modify the case or connect the cable or whathaveyou, wouldn't they just leave the case off during development? It's not like the casing would be required other than for opening the slot on the cartridge connector in the VCS anyway, right? If that's the case, I would vote for #2, no damaged cases, and the developers who would otherwise have to open the case to get access still have the port to play with. And non-developers are not affected at all. Unless I'm totally off base, which I could be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cschell Posted May 15, 2003 Author Share Posted May 15, 2003 If a developer needed to open the case for option 2 or 3 in order to modify the case or connect the cable or whathaveyou, wouldn't they just leave the case off during development? It's not like the casing would be required other than for opening the slot on the cartridge connector in the VCS anyway, right? Actually the 7800 has no dust covers, it's easy to plug bare PCBs into it. (I've had no need for a case in the entire time I've been doing development of the cart itself.) It's looking very tight to fit even a 10 pin header into the case, as it looks like the cable will stand up too high for the case to close with the connector in place, and there's certainly no room for a right angle connector. Perhaps the tiny connectors used on many sound cards. Chad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsoper Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Bluetooth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaManFan Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 I vote 3 if it's practical and feasible; otherwise 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doran Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Keep it simple; no need for TWO ways to get data into the cart. MMC is fine. OR Go for a joystick port cable, a-la the 7800 devos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEBRO Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Keep it simple; no need for TWO ways to get data into the cart. MMC is fine. I think Chad is trying to make it universal for developers who don't have PCs with MMC access. I vote for just using the MMC but I'd be bias there because I'm using a newer PC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landsmarra Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 I would not be doing any developing so I'd opt to leave it out and have MMC be the only interface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumpbucket Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 I'm not 100% sure i'll definately buy one, but I know I would only buy it if there was a serial connection; If I was developing a game I wouldn't want to have to keep moving the memory card back and forth, so a permanent connection would be wanted (as I have now with my DevOS BIOS equipped 7800). I'd go for 2 or 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goochman Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 I just want to make sure I understand completly: I am not a developer so Option #3 would have NO impact on my ability to load bin's for palying games - I assume MMC would allow me to do whatever I want? If thats the case then Option #3 is the way to go, otherwise I vote to remove it completly to avoid any potential conflicts Maybe you could create a 'developer' edition for some extra $$$ for those that really want it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+5-11under Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Too pricey for me, but if I had one, I'd probably just use the MMC. Buy an MMC reader/writer for the computer ($30?) and go crazy. 5-11under Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariKari Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 I'll chip in a vote for #2 or #3 after that. The only thing I plan on developing on the CCII is an increased appreciation of 7800 games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 The serial connect is important to me -- I vote for solution 3, sounds the most useful for my applications... If that is not getting votes, or the extra time to develop is prohibitive then go with 2, but 1 and 4 are not options I would wish on the cart as a potential customer... sTeVE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric_ruck Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 I'd vote for #3 first then #1, I don't like cutting things and I think the serial port would be handier than swapping memory cards around. Plus I already have a gazzillion other memory cards in different formats, and I'd rather not have any other types laying around. Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adonis_minus_20 Posted May 16, 2003 Share Posted May 16, 2003 I would go for option #3 to provide the desired flexibility, with #2 as a fallback. Alternatively, wouldn't it also be possible to just do initial development and testing with an emulator before moving to the console? I know the compatibility is not 100% as compared to the real thing, but it would give a good indication as to how your development is going. Then, when a little further along, you could progress to using the MMC to do further testing with the console. It would be inconvenient to have to swap the card in and out to transfer the data every time, but if used only to refine the program rather than develop it entirely, maybe it wouldn't be so bad. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Video Posted May 16, 2003 Share Posted May 16, 2003 I would vote to leave the headphone with no hole drilled. Developers would probably leave the casing off of the CCII, and shaving a hole for the earphone jack would be easy to do for most people, if they wanted. That, or drop it and go streight memory card access only. My reason is, most computer stores, and even likely your local Walmart, will have the earphone to 9pin connectors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cschell Posted May 17, 2003 Author Share Posted May 17, 2003 Option 3 doesn't look like it will work. A straight header with a cable is too tall to fit in the case with cable attached. No room for right angle header on the top, and a right angle header on the bottom is again too tall to fit in the case. I've looked for connectors with longer "necks" that will better fit through all the varying case widths but haven't found anything. So far mounting the audio jack flush with the PCB and letting those who want to use it either remove the case or cut a hole seems to be the best option. But it's a pretty weak solution. To answer some questions, the serial circuit does not affect MMC operation in anyway. You'll still need the MMC writer to load games onto the MMC, and the MMC will function perfectly with this circuit installed. Basically the purpose of this circuit is make life nice for developers, as it's really a pain to have to swap the MMC around, copy games to it, etc. It was to allow them to quickly download games into the cart using a serial port, and then give them the option of downloading bankswitching info at that time, or specify a bankswitching configuration to load off the MMC. Surprising to me, developers haven't really come forward with opinions on this, and it affects them the most. Perhaps the CC2 just doesn't appeal to developers in general, and I'm just wasting my time developing serial hardware and writing serial loading routines. I've considered making this an "open" platform, providing the OS source code for people to modify and enhance. Then if some industrious individual desired they could produce a full on debugger using the resources available on the cart. I mapped flash RAM into various configurations to make this possible, and of course the SRAM can be mapped anywhere. Actually someone could develop a debugger with just a little info on how to control the cart without actually needing to modify the base OS in any way. Of course such a system is full of potential problems, as it would be possible to for someone working at that level to cause several parts to drive the bus all at once, which could damage something. Also there might be a problem of several different, incompatible OS's being developed, and that's not good either. Overall I'm leaning towards not making it an "open" platform as I feel the problems outweigh the benefits. (And boy, is this whole rant off the topic of this thread.) Chad P.S. I don't think audio to serial cables are standard. Has anyone actually seen a 2.5mm stereo jack to 9 pin serial connector cable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Mitch Posted May 17, 2003 Share Posted May 17, 2003 P.S. I don't think audio to serial cables are standard. Has anyone actually seen a 2.5mm stereo jack to 9 pin serial connector cable? I have one. It came with my old digital camera. Just out of curiosity, how many of the cart shells do you have that are the right size to mate with the 2.5 jack? You might be able to use them for the developer types who would use the port, and for the gamers, you can give them one without a hole cut in the shell. It would be a little harder logistically though, and possibly not worth the trouble. Just a thought. Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cschell Posted May 17, 2003 Author Share Posted May 17, 2003 Actually it won't fit any cart right now. I would have to enlarge the PCB slightly in order to make it do that. But if I did that the PCB would no longer fit into some cases. It's really annoying. As for the serial cable, that's interesting. I wonder if it's wired the same as mine, or backwards. If you have an ohm-meter you'll be able to tell me in a few days. Chad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Mitch Posted May 17, 2003 Share Posted May 17, 2003 As for the serial cable, that's interesting. I wonder if it's wired the same as mine, or backwards On mine Rx is tip, Tx is center, and Gnd is collar. Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Like us on Facebook
Follow us on Twitter
AtariAge on Instagram
Watch us on YouTube
Chat on Discord
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.