EmuParadise has removed its entire library of retro game ROMs and ISOs

[Flojomojo]

Good point -- that's attacking piracy from the other side. Modern Nintendo platforms have had a bunch of firmware updates for "stability," too, and they'll ban devices with detected tampering.

 

Blocking custom firmware probably also helps prevent cheating in online games. I know Xboxes have been banned in this way as well.

 

Seems like you can do what you want with the "walled garden" console you buy, but the platform holder has the right to kick you off their online service if you don't stay with officially supported firmware.

 

This seems like a reasonable compromise to me -- keeps things safe and clean online, and tolerant of hackers doing their thing. You know what I think might break that model? Fortnite on Android, which uses a custom store rather than Google Play. Some security types are freaking out a bit, and it will be interesting to see how right they are.

[empsolo]

Hell, people were freaking out that Nintendo just released an update to the 3DS that effectively shuts down the Freeshop pirating software service.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[John Stamos Mullet]

Are firmware mods actually illegal though? I purchased the hardware; I have a right to make modifications to it if I chose. Nintendo doesn't attack projects like Hidef NES or UltraHDMI afaik. Then again, patents are expired on those.

if they were created using stolen Sony software compilation tools (they were) then yes. Also - they arent banning people for having custom firmware, but for using pirated versions of their games.

[Flojomojo]

Are firmware mods actually illegal though? I purchased the hardware; I have a right to make modifications to it if I chose. Nintendo doesn't attack projects like Hidef NES or UltraHDMI afaik. Then again, patents are expired on those.

I'm no lawyer, but your take sounds fair to me. It's just that they don't have to let you play commercial or online software if you choose to make your hardware do it's own thing.

 

There's probably some statute about distributing cracked encryption with malicious intent, though. I'm speculating because I don't know anything. Maybe it's just my "passive aggressive schtick" coming through.

[John Stamos Mullet]

I'm no lawyer, but your take sounds fair to me. It's just that they don't have to let you play commercial or online software if you choose to make your hardware do it's own thing.

 

There's probably some statute about distributing cracked encryption with malicious intent, though. I'm speculating because I don't know anything. Maybe it's just my "passive aggressive schtick" coming through.

In the case of Sony, people have already gone to jail for it.

 

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2009/08/modder-arrest-a-reminder-that-most-console-hacks-are-illegal/

[Flojomojo]

We should look him up, because if he served time, he must be out by now. I want to look into this more closely, it's interesting.

 

From the Ars article:

If you've simply modified a console, it's a civil matter. For criminal charges to be brought against you, you had to have willfully and purposefully modded the systems to play pirated games, and profited from the work. "Individual users who want to create a media center may well be violating the law, but as a practical matter, it's very unlikely that anyone will want to come after them," Granick explained. "It's the people that provide the tools, particularly for commercial practices, who can attract the unwanted attention."

[John Stamos Mullet]

We should look him up, because if he served time, he must be out by now. I want to look into this more closely, it's interesting.

 

From the Ars article:

If you've simply modified a console, it's a civil matter. For criminal charges to be brought against you, you had to have willfully and purposefully modded the systems to play pirated games, and profited from the work. "Individual users who want to create a media center may well be violating the law, but as a practical matter, it's very unlikely that anyone will want to come after them," Granick explained. "It's the people that provide the tools, particularly for commercial practices, who can attract the unwanted attention."

The thing is - if you host those CFW files on a public facing server that uses advertising revenue to pay for it's hosting - that qualifies as profiting from the distribution of the illegal material.

[derFunkenstein]

Are firmware mods actually illegal though? I purchased the hardware; I have a right to make modifications to it if I chose. Nintendo doesn't attack projects like Hidef NES or UltraHDMI afaik. Then again, patents are expired on those.

You can make modifications, sure, but it's how you use those modifications that can be legal or not. If you're using the mods to circumvent platform DRM, then I think it's a DMCA violation. I'm not a lawyer, though. A hidef NES is way different than a custom firmware or a modchip.

 

edit: whoa there's a whole other page of responses I missed. Interesting Ars Technica link.

Edited August 10, 2018 by derFunkenstein

[zzip]

So stop name calling and tell us, what would a "Nintendo boycott" accomplish? Be specific.

I don't even thing an organized boycott will be necessary.

 

1. Nintendo seems to be working from the assumption these sites hurt their sales.

 

2. Nintendo flashback devices sell like hotcakes already

 

3. There are a lot of people who both like NES Minis, and like having rom sites around even if they are of dubious legality

 

4. Nintendo is destroying goodwill with the group of people in #3. It would not surprise me if the online sentiment towards NES Mini changes from "Come on Nintendo release more minis!" to "F*** Nintendo!" and Nintendo sells somewhat less than they otherwise could have.

[Gamemoose]

The problem with Nintendo's "Copyright claims" is that it's bullshit. they don't own Atari or Sega or anbody else.i could understand if Emuparadise hosted ONLY nintendo, but they don't. No reasonable person would support them after this move. I play emulated systems because Ebay's prices are absurd.

 

a typical ZX Spectrum 128 is over $600! seriously, if i can't download a rom of a game or system that is no longer in circulation (Most of the Spectrum Library, Nintendo's own super mario bros nes trilogy)

 

then i ought to be able to do so. They're being dicks. they were in the 90's and they are now

I love this logic. "Because I don't want to spend the money for the real thing on the used market, I am entitled to download the ROM. And Nintendo and Sony are big meanies because they scared the emulation site, so they took all their Roms and went home".

 

Yeah...I emulate too. But I'm not entitled to it. I don't have a right to have them. If I lost my ROMs for some weird reason and couldn't get them....oh well. That's life.

 

I know I'm preaching to the choir but dang, this mentality tends to bleed into other more tangible things.

[derFunkenstein]

3. There are a lot of people who both like NES Minis, and like having rom sites around even if they are of dubious legality

 

4. Nintendo is destroying goodwill with the group of people in #3. It would not surprise me if the online sentiment towards NES Mini changes from "Come on Nintendo release more minis!" to "F*** Nintendo!" and Nintendo sells somewhat less than they otherwise could have.

 

[John Stamos Mullet]

I don't even thing an organized boycott will be necessary.

 

1. Nintendo seems to be working from the assumption these sites hurt their sales.

 

2. Nintendo flashback devices sell like hotcakes already

 

3. There are a lot of people who both like NES Minis, and like having rom sites around even if they are of dubious legality

 

4. Nintendo is destroying goodwill with the group of people in #3. It would not surprise me if the online sentiment towards NES Mini changes from "Come on Nintendo release more minis!" to "F*** Nintendo!" and Nintendo sells somewhat less than they otherwise could have.

The number of people who even know of the existence of rom sites, never mind which ones are legit, and how to use those roms - is maybe 0.00001% of Nintendo's target audience. You vastly overestimate the impact of piracy. They're doing this because they can, and because they are within their legal rights to do so.

[John Stamos Mullet]

I love this logic. "Because I don't want to spend the money for the real thing on the used market, I am entitled to download the ROM. And Nintendo and Sony are big meanies because they scared the emulation site, so they took all their Roms and went home".

 

Yeah...I emulate too. But I'm not entitled to it. I don't have a right to have them. If I lost my ROMs for some weird reason and couldn't get them....oh well. That's life.

 

I know I'm preaching to the choir but dang, this mentality tends to bleed into other more tangible things.

This. This right here ^ ALL of this.

 

The only part of it I "kinda" agree with is not wanting to pay the exorbitant prices on the used market for some items, because obsessive collectors and ebay scammers have driven the prices on certain things up to ridiculous levels. My rule of thumb with buying anything used on ebay is that I will absolutely never pay more than it sold for at retail - and if it's really that rare that people think it's worth hundreds or thousands more on the used market, I'm emulating that shit.

Edited August 10, 2018 by John Stamos Mullet

[mr_me]

The high cost of rarities is a good example of "fair use" to copy rom files. That is unless it's protected by DRM then it becomes a crime. This is an example of the problem with the new dmca laws.

[John Stamos Mullet]

"

 

Oh yes the fuck I would.

[Flojomojo]

and away we go!

 

[zzip]

The number of people who even know of the existence of rom sites, never mind which ones are legit, and how to use those roms - is maybe 0.00001% of Nintendo's target audience. You vastly overestimate the impact of piracy. They're doing this because they can, and because they are within their legal rights to do so.

There is no way it's even close to that small. The target market for mini NESs is gen-Xers who have been on the internet for some 20 years now and if they have any interest in retrogaming, they are probably at least aware of the existence of emulators and roms, even if they have never waded into those waters themselves. I think at least 5% of potential mini NES buyers could be angry enough about this to consider not buying.

 

That's not to even mention how this risks putting Nintendo on gamers s***list like EA currently is. This action doesn't just affect Nintendo fans, it affects all emulator fans. Like the Battlefront II controversy which wasn't entirely fair to EA, Nintendo may suddenly find themselves in the midst of angry firestorms and be forced to capitulate on issues like EA did as gamers took all their bottled up anger out on them.

[Gamemoose]

This. This right here ^ ALL of this.

 

The only part of it I "kinda" agree with is not wanting to pay the exorbitant prices on the used market for some items, because obsessive collectors and ebay scammers have driven the prices on certain things up to ridiculous levels. My rule of thumb with buying anything used on ebay is that I will absolutely never pay more than it sold for at retail - and if it's really that rare that people think it's worth hundreds or thousands more on the used market, I'm emulating that shit.

Don't get me wrong, I'd emulate a rare game I wouldn't ever justify buying in a heart beat. Totally with you. From an outside objective view, is it "right" in the eyes of the law? I'd say "no". But because it is bits n' bytes, untangible and highly unlikely we'd really get nailed for having the ROMs, we gloss it as no big deal. That's not unlike the feeling people have about jaywalking or spitting on the sidewalk, which in some places is illegal.

[Flojomojo]

The number of people who even know of the existence of rom sites, never mind which ones are legit, and how to use those roms - is maybe 0.00001% of Nintendo's target audience. You vastly overestimate the impact of piracy. They're doing this because they can, and because they are within their legal rights to do so.

 

There is no way it's even close to that small. The target market for mini NESs is gen-Xers who have been on the internet for some 20 years now and if they have any interest in retrogaming, they are probably at least aware of the existence of emulators and roms, even if they have never waded into those waters themselves. I think at least 5% of potential mini NES buyers could be angry enough about this to consider not buying.

 

I don't think it's possible to quantify the effect, but we can certainly talk about what we've seen. Qualitative internet rage is different from quantifiable effect on sales.

 

The Classic Mini toys seem to have sold quite well, probably better than any Virtual Console a la carte sales -- but we don't have that information, just feelings.

 

I've seen plenty of people say, "I don't need a Classic Mini, I have a Pi or emulation on my computer, or the vintage cartridges" -- I was one of those people -- and there were also a bunch of people who just wanted the official, original thing. Or both -- which is what I ended up doing. I didn't have the NES mini until very recently.

 

I've also seen people say, "I don't want to/I am not tech savvy enough" to load up an emulator, which is why they like the commercial products.

 

Some people have loaded up their Classic Mini with other ROMs with the easy-to-use hatchki tool. We will likely never know exactly how many, but Nintendo didn't do anything to stop them, even with the 2nd run of NES Minis.

 

I think the Battlefront II loot box thing was overhyped, because mobile gaming has been doing the same thing for years and is regulated in many countries. Loot boxes are everywhere. Overwatch players don't seem to mind. This has pretty much blown over, don't you think?

 

I don't need any of the recently shut down ROM sites, and I would think the "genX people" who might like a NES Mini either already has a ROM collection, or isn't going to start now. I'd be pissed if they went after end users, but "angry firestorms" seem unlikely to change their behavior. Or is that what the "nintendo boycott" is intended to do?

 

Hey, here's a petition

https://www.change.org/p/nintendo-make-nintendo-accept-community-emulation-advancement

Change the world!

[derFunkenstein]

There is no way it's even close to that small. The target market for mini NESs is gen-Xers who have been on the internet for some 20 years now and if they have any interest in retrogaming, they are probably at least aware of the existence of emulators and roms, even if they have never waded into those waters themselves. I think at least 5% of potential mini NES buyers could be angry enough about this to consider not buying.

 

That's not to even mention how this risks putting Nintendo on gamers s***list like EA currently is. This action doesn't just affect Nintendo fans, it affects all emulator fans. Like the Battlefront II controversy which wasn't entirely fair to EA, Nintendo may suddenly find themselves in the midst of angry firestorms and be forced to capitulate on issues like EA did as gamers took all their bottled up anger out on them.

 

I think you're severely overestimating the average Joe's technical prowess.

 

I have just spent the better part of two days downloading different packages onto my spare PC in an attempt to make something all-in-one like to play ROMs. I finally settled on HyperPie PC Edition from Arcade Punks. Which is a 138GB download from Mega. No way the average retrogamer is doing that.

Edited August 10, 2018 by derFunkenstein

[AMenard]

I think you're severely overestimating the average Joe's technical prowess.

 

I have just spent the better part of two days downloading different packages onto my spare PC in an attempt to make something all-in-one like to play ROMs. I finally settled on HyperPie PC Edition from Arcade Punks. Which is a 138GB download from Mega. No way the average retrogamer is doing that.

 

What prowess? you only have to follow one of the many tutorials on youtube or elsewhere. And the cartridge system are a couple of megs worth at most, not 138gb...

[zzip]

I don't think it's possible to quantify the effect, but we can certainly talk about what we've seen. Qualitative internet rage is different from quantifiable effect on sales.

 

The Classic Mini toys seem to have sold quite well, probably better than any Virtual Console a la carte sales -- but we don't have that information, just feelings.

 

I've seen plenty of people say, "I don't need a Classic Mini, I have a Pi or emulation on my computer, or the vintage cartridges" -- I was one of those people -- and there were also a bunch of people who just wanted the official, original thing. Or both -- which is what I ended up doing. I didn't have the NES mini until very recently.

 

I've also seen people say, "I don't want to/I am not tech savvy enough" to load up an emulator, which is why they like the commercial products.

It definitely is hard to quantify what percentage of the retro-game market is into emulation. My feeling is it must surely be at least 5%, that isn't a huge number? But it's also not just Nintendo emulator fans affected either.

 

I was surprised at just how much demand there was for the official NES mini. I mean many of those games were on virtual console and what not. I guess there's something to be said for official hardware that resembles the original.

 

I think the Battlefront II loot box thing was overhyped, because mobile gaming has been doing the same thing for years and is regulated in many countries. Loot boxes are everywhere. Overwatch players don't seem to mind. This has pretty much blown over, don't you think?

I agree 110% that the Battlefront II controversy was overblown. But the fact is it still happened. I think it is less about BF2 per se, and more anger about EA's perceived past sins. But it was fierce enough that EA felt forced to capitulate. I think as a result we BF2 players are getting weak updates (the expected revenue from micro transactions never came to fund them)

 

That's why I think the anger over the rom issue might surface by having the next relatively minor Nintendo controversy blow up into something major. It doesn't seem to take that many people online to get a mob going.

 

I don't need any of the recently shut down ROM sites, and I would think the "genX people" who might like a NES Mini either already has a ROM collection, or isn't going to start now. I'd be pissed if they went after end users, but "angry firestorms" seem unlikely to change their behavior. Or is that what the "nintendo boycott" is intended to do?

My collection is mostly complete. But there is still that odd obscure game from my youth I'd like to play again that I can't find or I need a dump that actually works. Then there's the Mame community that likes to replace entire rom dumps frequently and tells everyone to just download the new set when they complain. What are they going to do?

[empsolo]

Don't get me wrong, I'd emulate a rare game I wouldn't ever justify buying in a heart beat. Totally with you. From an outside objective view, is it "right" in the eyes of the law? I'd say "no". But because it is bits n' bytes, untangible and highly unlikely we'd really get nailed for having the ROMs, we gloss it as no big deal. That's not unlike the feeling people have about jaywalking or spitting on the sidewalk, which in some places is illegal.

"Shoplifting is a victimless crime! It's like punching somebody in the dark!"

[zzip]

I think you're severely overestimating the average Joe's technical prowess.

 

I have just spent the better part of two days downloading different packages onto my spare PC in an attempt to make something all-in-one like to play ROMs. I finally settled on HyperPie PC Edition from Arcade Punks. Which is a 138GB download from Mega. No way the average retrogamer is doing that.

Not everyone is after an all-in-one system. It might just be a handful of games they miss playing

[derFunkenstein]

What prowess? you only have to follow one of the many tutorials on youtube or elsewhere. And the cartridge system are a couple of megs worth at most, not 138gb...

 

That's far more than what most are willing to do. They MIGHT ask someone technical to do it for them. They're more likely to assume all that stuff is lost forever until Nintendo swoops in.

 

I work with schools. I talk to too many parents of students every day who are unable to install a simple iPhone app for themselves. They have non-technical jobs and no interest in learning, but they sure as heck remember growing up playing Punch-Out or whatever.

 

I mean, it's fine, you can disagree. Whatever. But i deal with too much of the general public to know they're just not capable of or interested in setting up any sort of emulator for themselves. it's silly to think we're the norm.

 

The fact that there have to be tutorials - that it's not self-explanatory - should be proof enough that it's complex.

Edited August 10, 2018 by derFunkenstein