MiSTer FPGA

[Reaperman]

okay, I'm paying full attention now. 

I've been looking for a DE10 to replace the one I shucked out of a used mister to fill my MiSTercade (during the COOV DE10 famine)
 

 

[+5-11under]

34 minutes ago, Reaperman said:

okay, I'm paying full attention now. 

I've been looking for a DE10 to replace the one I shucked out of a used mister to fill my MiSTercade (during the COOV DE10 famine)
 

 

That's cool!

 

[awbacon]

 

[phoenixdownita]

1 hour ago, awbacon said:

 

9min42sec of you repeating over and over and over that testing is needed, it may not be 100%, what about Saturn core, what about n64 turbo core, terasic this that and the other … could have done it in under 2mins … is there a premium in yt for longer anonymous views ?? … jeez Louise

Edited April 30 by phoenixdownita

[awbacon]

14 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

9min42sec of you repeating over and over and over that testing is needed, it may not be 100%, what about Saturn core, what about n64 turbo core, terasic this that and the other … could have done it in under 2mins … is there a premium in yt for longer anonymous views ?? … jeez Louise

I took the time I wanted to accurately explain the differences in sources of the boards, the cores that are sensitive to performance, the fact more people in the ecosystem is a good thing but only if its a 1:1 experience, the support system from Terasic if you have an issue, etc etc. Thats a 9 minute video 

[phoenixdownita]

4 hours ago, awbacon said:

I took the time I wanted to accurately explain the differences in sources of the boards, the cores that are sensitive to performance, the fact more people in the ecosystem is a good thing but only if its a 1:1 experience, the support system from Terasic if you have an issue, etc etc. Thats a 9 minute video 

That’s just an opinion, if it is really as cheap as they say if the more demanding cores don’t work or have some limitations it would be fine to many people as long as they know before buying, like MiST to this day (they have their own rebuilt neogeo core).

I have a MiSTer and have never once fired the Saturn or N64 cores and I do have 2 Saturn and 2 N64 in the house … to each his own.

 

Terasic can only support the DE-10 nano board for hw issues on their side but that’s it and they are on par with other dev boards manufacturers (like Arrow).

 

On other news if those people can really source the 100k le Cyclone V (as in five Roman numeral and not the letter as spelled in the above video) for that cheap I have to believe Analogue would do the same for beefed up offerings … @kevtris did the price of the fpgas of that size plummeted recently? You know with more competitors (Trion etc..).

 

 

Edited May 1 by phoenixdownita

[kevtris]

3 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

That’s just an opinion, if it is really as cheap as they say if the more demanding cores don’t work or have some limitations it would be fine to many people as long as they know before buying, like MiST to this day (they have their own rebuilt neogeo core).

I have a MiSTer and have never once fired the Saturn or N64 cores and I do have 2 Saturn and 2 N64 in the house … to each his own.

 

Terasic can only support the DE-10 nano board for hw issues on their side but that’s it and they are on par with other dev boards manufacturers (like Arrow).

 

On other news if those people can really source the 100k le Cyclone V (as in five Roman numeral and not the letter as spelled in the above video) for that cheap I have to believe Analogue would do the same for beefed up offerings … @kevtris did the price of the fpgas of that size plummeted recently? You know with more competitors (Trion etc..).

 

 

 

I suspect these are pulls from ewaste and have been cleaned up and reballed.  Not that there's anything wrong with that- they probably got them for practically free on something like cell phone equipment when it was upgraded.  The problem with this, though is they might not be the same speed grade.  The de10 has a -6 part which is the fastest;  the picture I saw strategically covered up the chip's markings so I cannot tell what speed grade it is using, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was the -8.  This means that certain cores might not work or will be flaky if the speed grade is slower.   I noticed the on-board jtagger is gone too and has been replaced with a plain old jtag port.  this would save some cash and unless you're a developer this doesn't matter too much.  I don't know what RAM it is using, it looks similar to the official board so the DDR3 is most likely fine.  There could be other minor things changed too to save a bit of cash. 

 

So I suspect it will work fine for a lot of things but might fail on the more demanding applications.  there might be other things like lower spec power supplies too.  If people know what they are buying I don't see a problem with it, just hope it doesn't cause a support issue.  IF they can obtain -6 parts it would be possible to have essentially a 1:1 clone though.  so it will all hinge mainly on which chip is on there.

 

 

[awbacon]

 

[+remowilliams]

Right from the source..

 

 

[phoenixdownita]

5 hours ago, remowilliams said:

Right from the source..

 

 

So DE-10 uses Cyclone V SE code : 5C SE B A6 U23 I 7

Squinting at the proto board he seems to be using an Cyclone V SX code 5C SX F C6 ... (followed maybe by C6 U23 I7N can't make all of it) ... I am sure some more sleuth would get the full product code [note it matches the SE version in LE count and pretty much everything else so as to why that one is cheaper I do not know given it has 2 transceivers] 

 

Link to Cyclone V product codes: https://cdrdv2-public.intel.com/666729/cv_51001-683694-666729.pdf

 

Even more: https://www.digikey.com/en/products/base-product/intel/544/5CSXFC6/103089

the cheapest single unit price is about 300+ for chips in that family so definitely something is afoot if they can offer the board with the chip at that price .... all the power to them.

Edited May 2 by phoenixdownita

[Reaperman]

so it looks like enough ports are moved around or changed to kill all compatibility with current cases, including the shucked one I'm trying to fill. usb bridge has to happen another way too, so I guess I'm interested in seeing their case and usb offerings because that's how that will have to go. I might just do without a case on MiSTer#3--also I'm going to have to come up with some way of keeping them in sync. automated FTP script or something. 

 

Complaining aside, still smells like a bargain. I do like the talk of efficiency and powerhandling, and if I'm hearing right, more available 5v power(?).  I'm constantly bumping into 5v limits on both of my MiSTers, by running wireless keyboards, powering DVR's, 2x extra microSD adapters, and power-hungry SNAC devices. 

 

My 'master plan' is to stuff the extra MiSTer into a 'gaems' style briefcase luggable along with a dvr, nintendo switch and a laptop board (or steam deck board). just to make remote setup easy.

Edited May 2 by Reaperman

[awbacon]

 

[phoenixdownita]

On 5/1/2024 at 1:00 PM, kevtris said:

 

I suspect these are pulls from ewaste and have been cleaned up and reballed.  Not that there's anything wrong with that- they probably got them for practically free on something like cell phone equipment when it was upgraded.  The problem with this, though is they might not be the same speed grade.  The de10 has a -6 part which is the fastest;  the picture I saw strategically covered up the chip's markings so I cannot tell what speed grade it is using, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was the -8.  This means that certain cores might not work or will be flaky if the speed grade is slower.   I noticed the on-board jtagger is gone too and has been replaced with a plain old jtag port.  this would save some cash and unless you're a developer this doesn't matter too much.  I don't know what RAM it is using, it looks similar to the official board so the DDR3 is most likely fine.  There could be other minor things changed too to save a bit of cash. 

 

So I suspect it will work fine for a lot of things but might fail on the more demanding applications.  there might be other things like lower spec power supplies too.  If people know what they are buying I don't see a problem with it, just hope it doesn't cause a support issue.  IF they can obtain -6 parts it would be possible to have essentially a 1:1 clone though.  so it will all hinge mainly on which chip is on there.

 

 

Given the proto board in the video sports a Cyclone V SX which matches the SE in the DE-10 Nano and in addition it has transceivers I fail to see how it could cost less.

Aka I cannot understand how they can support any scale ... maybe there was a pellet of these things sitting around? 

Granted we are not talking huge numbers so maybe they secured a few thousands??? At any rate the price of the SoC per see is supposed to be higher than the SE in the DE-10 Nano, plus there's the board and all the other components ... 

You mention "ewaste and have been cleaned up and reballed" ... how sustainable is that and why would not Analogue tap into the same source? Too much hassle? Too much support? (well then these MiSTer clones would go through the same issues).

 

Even their 128MB RAM module is so much cheaper? Are the other vendors overpriced? Or maybe it's some volume discount????

Edited May 3 by phoenixdownita

[kevtris]

3 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

Given the proto board in the video sports a Cyclone V SX which matches the SE in the DE-10 Nano and in addition it has transceivers I fail to see how it could cost less.

Aka I cannot understand how they can support any scale ... maybe there was a pellet of these things sitting around? 

Granted we are not talking huge numbers so maybe they secured a few thousands??? At any rate the price of the SoC per see is supposed to be higher than the SE in the DE-10 Nano, plus there's the board and all the other components ... 

You mention "ewaste and have been cleaned up and reballed" ... how sustainable is that and why would not Analogue tap into the same source? Too much hassle? Too much support? (well then these MiSTer clones would go through the same issues).

 

Even their 128MB RAM module is so much cheaper? Are the other vendors overpriced? Or maybe it's some volume discount????

I checked out the video and paused it and single stepped it to get a good look at the FPGA.  it seems to actually be the same FPGA that's on the DE10 after all.  my DE10 here has a -7 speed grade rated part, and the clone board does too.  One interesting thing about the DE10 board's FPGA is it is specially marked.  the part number ends with 7NDK  while the one on the clone is just 7N.  the "DK" stands for "development kit" and you should only find these on dev kit boards like the DE10.  I wonder if intel does this to detect grey market chip sales?   Since it is using the same speed grade FPGA after all, theoretically it should be compatible with all the cores, at least the FPGA should be.  Jury's out on the rest of the board but that shouldn't be difficult to get right.

 

It's a mystery to me where they are getting the chips.  The problem with pulled/reballed parts is they have been used once, and it's a big hassle to pull and reball them, and also the supply is uncertain.  you might get a bunch of them when i.e. telecom equipment is retired and never get more.  also, reliability might not be great since they will have 10-20K hours on them, and were heated up three more times to pull, reball, and install them on the new board. 

 

the RAM module seems in line with what I'd expect.  the RAM chips are a few bucks each and the PCB is pretty cheap, so $15 seems reasonable.

[M-S]

4 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

You mention "ewaste and have been cleaned up and reballed" ... how sustainable is that and why would not Analogue tap into the same source? Too much hassle? Too much support? (well then these MiSTer clones would go through the same issues).

Analogue has never been interested in making cheaper consoles, their target market has always been limited high end devices. I'm not sure about GBA, SNES and Mega Drive, but if they wanted they could sell 8-bit FPGA consoles in simpler boards with more or less the same features around 100$, the Altera Cyclone V they use is overkill for something like an NES.

[awbacon]

 

[Reaperman]

before I go nuts on a script to keep my MiSTers in sync using my PC--does somebody just already do a script for MiSTer that does it from that side?

Something that, for example, has one MiSTer FTP into another one and dump all its romz0rz over?

 

I also think maybe it's time to address the network speeds at that end of the house. powerline ethernet to wifi that's obstructed by the arcade cabinet--wow, that's slow. 🙄

Edited May 7 by Reaperman

[awbacon]

 

[R.Cade]

FAFO... When have cheap clones from the East ever been stable or reliable?

 

[awbacon]

 

[awbacon]

 

[awbacon]

 

[phoenixdownita]

It seems our yt_video_poster_lets_go_for_quantity  missed to double post the mister core update on the turbo n64 (usually his thread and here … because we love stereo) … unforgivable 🙂

Edited Wednesday at 11:13 PM by phoenixdownita