Nickolasgaspar Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 1 minute ago, rensoup said: yes There's not much I can do to debug this... I'd be curious to know if there are any read retries... Perhaps it crashes always after x attract loops ? No worries. Maybe changing the storage medium might solve the issue. But I think that there aren't any read retries, at least they are not registered by RespeQt. The one thing I noticed (new to me) while loading I can see RespeQt reading sectors but without the loading sound(it stops after a while) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 you might try making sure you are running the latest respeqt and turning the sio speed down or double checking the serial port setting in reference to flow control and falling edge etc.... from time to time people mention such issues and it sometimes turns out they have the device set at a higher divisor than certain software can handle or a control method that has issues with speeds and synchronization with the edge of the signal falling at the wrong moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickolasgaspar Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 4 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said: you might try making sure you are running the latest respeqt and turning the sio speed down or double checking the serial port setting in reference to flow control and falling edge etc.... from time to time people mention such issues and it sometimes turns out they have the device set at a higher divisor than certain software can handle or a control method that has issues with speeds and synchronization with the edge of the signal falling at the wrong moment. I appreciate for your suggestions! It turned out I had the r4 release of RespeQt...which happens to have the best performance with this file! I slowed down the sio speed ( I only see differences in XEX loading speed). I tried RespeQt r5.2 and 5.3 (I think) but unfortunately the loading process doesn't even reach the first Screen with those two releases! I even made a second sio2pc cable with a new serial board. I only saw an improvement in the loading sound of the game. Now I can hear a really weak loading sound that the previous cable didn't pick up for a weird reason! But again no success. I talked to Jurgen (tfhh)and he suggested to send him any files that displays loading/run issues so he can run some tests on his setup. He sounds really interested in improving his products at every opportunity! The thing is that I have managed to find a way to run every problematic game/demo/prg by doing a different kind of trickery for each one, so I am starting to think that the Freddie chip must play a role here. Does any one else has a Freddie PAL machine with Jurgen's memory expansion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazzspeed Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 1 hour ago, Nickolasgaspar said: I appreciate for your suggestions! It turned out I had the r4 release of RespeQt...which happens to have the best performance with this file! I slowed down the sio speed ( I only see differences in XEX loading speed). I tried RespeQt r5.2 and 5.3 (I think) but unfortunately the loading process doesn't even reach the first Screen with those two releases! I even made a second sio2pc cable with a new serial board. I only saw an improvement in the loading sound of the game. Now I can hear a really weak loading sound that the previous cable didn't pick up for a weird reason! But again no success. I talked to Jurgen (tfhh)and he suggested to send him any files that displays loading/run issues so he can run some tests on his setup. He sounds really interested in improving his products at every opportunity! The thing is that I have managed to find a way to run every problematic game/demo/prg by doing a different kind of trickery for each one, so I am starting to think that the Freddie chip must play a role here. Does any one else has a Freddie PAL machine with Jurgen's memory expansion? SIO has to be at bog stock speeds, there can be no HSIO at all. I can load the DD version of the game faultlessly using RespeQt at standard SIO speeds on a 600XL equipped with SIDE3, U1MB (both running the latest firmware), 64k upgrade, Sophia 2 and a home made SIO2PC adapter. RespeQt running on a Pi400 @ 2.4 GHz under TwisterOS. Even when running bog stock SIO speeds, the lightweight DOS replacement used appears overly finiky regarding timing issues on certain configurations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DrVenkman Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 17 minutes ago, Mazzspeed said: Even when running bog stock SIO speeds, the lightweight DOS replacement used appears overly finiky regarding timing issues on certain configurations. This. And with all due respect, this is why - while emulators are undoubtedly indispensable for most modern development - testing on real hardware absolutely should be part of the process. Real hardware is rarely as precise or predictable as an emulator. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickolasgaspar Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 1 minute ago, Mazzspeed said: SIO has to be at bog stock speeds, there can be no HSIO at all. I can load the DD version of the game faultlessly using RespeQt at standard SIO speeds on a 600XL equipped with SIDE3, U1MB (both running the latest firmware), 64k upgrade, Sophia 2 and a home made SIO2PC adapter. RespeQt running on a Pi400 @ 2.4 GHz under TwisterOS. Even when running bog stock SIO speeds, the lightweight DOS replacement used appears overly finiky regarding timing issues on certain configurations. So after many efforts and tests I think its a matter of cable"noise". Even if both home made SIO2PC cables perform excellent with all other files, the problems with this specific file start from this sector: [Disk 1] Read Sector 646 ($286) #16 in track 35 ($23) [Disk 1] Get status: $ff [Disk 1] Speed poll This is where the loading sound drops and failures to read specific sectors begin.(multiple attempt [x2,3,4] ) For some reason I have some random success by enabling non-standard speeds and setting the high speed mode POKEY divisor to 0.(1 success every 10-20 loading attempts...hardly a success) So the fact that the game can load and the errors occure in random convinced me that the memory module or my freddie machine has nothing to do with this. I will start by building a more robust cable with a better serial adaptor and see if that changes anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rensoup Posted June 24, 2021 Author Share Posted June 24, 2021 6 hours ago, Nickolasgaspar said: [Disk 1] Read Sector 646 ($286) #16 in track 35 ($23) interesting because there's nothing there I think, it's basically the last used sector on the disk ? Spoiler directory of image 'PoP_DD_20210619_bugfix.atr' 0 42 ATTRCOV2BIN 00004 00015 1 42 ATTRCOVLBIN 00019 00008 2 42 BG1D DTA 00027 00013 3 42 BG1D TBL 00040 00002 4 42 BG1P DTA 00042 00013 5 42 BG1P TBL 00055 00002 6 42 BG2D DTA 00057 00007 7 42 BG2D TBL 00064 00001 0 42 BG2P DTA 00065 00009 1 42 BG2P TBL 00074 00001 2 42 CH1 DTA 00075 00020 3 42 CH1 PMG 00095 00009 4 42 CH1 TBL 00104 00004 5 42 CH2 DTA 00108 00019 6 42 CH2 PMG 00127 00010 7 42 CH3 DTA 00137 00014 0 42 CH3 PMG 00151 00006 1 42 CH4F DTA 00157 00013 2 42 CH4F PMG 00170 00004 3 42 CH4F TBL 00174 00001 4 42 CH4G DTA 00175 00013 5 42 CH4G PMG 00188 00004 6 42 CH4G TBL 00192 00001 7 42 CH4K DTA 00193 00009 0 42 CH4K PMG 00202 00001 1 42 CH4K TBL 00203 00001 2 42 CH4S DTA 00204 00010 3 42 CH4S PMG 00214 00001 4 42 CH4S TBL 00215 00001 5 42 CH4V DTA 00216 00011 6 42 CH4V PMG 00227 00003 7 42 CH4V TBL 00230 00001 0 42 CH5 DTA 00231 00014 1 42 CH5 PMG 00245 00007 2 42 CH6A DTA 00252 00014 3 42 CH6A PMG 00266 00005 4 42 CH6A TBL 00271 00002 5 42 CH6B DTA 00273 00014 6 42 CH6B PMG 00287 00003 7 42 CH6B TBL 00290 00001 0 42 CH7 DTA 00291 00002 1 42 CH7 PMG 00293 00001 2 42 CH7 TBL 00294 00001 3 42 CIRCLE APL 00295 00033 4 42 CUTOVL BIN 00328 00006 5 42 FLYTEXT APL 00334 00027 6 42 FONTOVL BIN 00370 00010 7 42 FUJICHS APL 00380 00005 0 42 LAUNCHEROBX 00385 00007 1 42 LEVELS 00392 00041 2 42 LZSSOVL1BIN 00433 00011 3 42 LZSSOVL2BIN 00444 00013 4 42 PMGOVL BIN 00457 00004 5 42 POPCORE BIN 00461 00100 6 42 PROOM RAW 00561 00015 7 42 SFX1 BIN 00576 00004 0 42 SFX2 BIN 00580 00005 1 42 TITLE PCO 00585 00009 2 42 TITLES PCO 00594 00014 3 42 VSIN APL 00608 00029 4 42 XBIOS COM 00637 00010 74 free sectors 4 42 XBIOS COM 00637 00010 so it tries to read just beyond XBIOS.COM (starts at sector 637 and is 10 sectors long) ? Can anyone else with a working respeQt setup confirm that ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 I don't see those retries at all using respeqt, but I am using a real rs232 port with respeqt, and APE with usb port only PC's... I use WIN XP WIN8.1 and WIN10 for a quick test of each and did not have the retry issue... What is the exact topography of your set up Nickolasgaspar? As for Aspeqt? wow I wouldn't use that. It's not quite up to the job, I never had good results using the original Aspeqt. Respeqt corrected most of it's issues but a few still linger. With that in mind, timing is everything for both, I do remember having to choose different usb port and polling rates on a laptop or two in order to keep it chugging along. oh and another issue that cropped up over time required some FTDI to be configured not to sleep or conserve power on long file transfers for back ups of larger disks and partitions... @Kyle22... do you remember the tools we used and what we set to slay your FTDI beast when that was going on? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rensoup Posted June 24, 2021 Author Share Posted June 24, 2021 30 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said: I don't see those retries at all using respeqt, but I am using a real rs232 port with respeqt, and APE with usb port only PC's... I use WIN XP WIN8.1 and WIN10 for a quick test of each and did not have the retry issue... but do you see it trying to read sector 646 ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxl Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 (edited) In addition to being one of the best games, PoP also has an educational value - the player will learn how to use the computer and its peripherals. will find out that equipment that does not meet the standard is considered to be non-qualitative and that a self-respecting consumer of Atari content uses premium quality equipment only. you have an Atari, you belong to the elite. Edited June 24, 2021 by xxl 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+VinsCool Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 PoP is really gorgeous. Only had tried it on emulator but this is even better on the real thing! NTSC Atari 800xl, S-Video, 256k RAM upgrade, AVGCART, works perfectly so far! I really like the loading times from the cartridge, this makes the experience really fluid 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEtalGuy66 Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 On 6/22/2021 at 4:08 PM, rensoup said: Sure we were all kids once, no need to insult the man who created this masterpiece though... Noone insulted anyone. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazzspeed Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 (edited) I see no sector retries as bad as those shown by @Nickolasgaspar using RespeQt via USB. The speed polling is indicative of communication issues. I agree with your decision to go over your cable, possibly trying another FTDI board. I'm also getting tired of a certain users comments, and still question the use of a certain lightweight DOS substitute when it's actually creating compatibility issues as opposed to resolving them. Edited June 24, 2021 by Mazzspeed 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DrVenkman Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 If I don't end up having to work all weekend and get motivated enough, I'll connect one of my FujiNets via USB cable to my PC during game loading and while the demo is running. Connected this way, the FujiNet firmware flasher program also gives you the option to capture serial debug data straight off the SIO bus connection to the ESP32 inside the FujiNet. Since the same "blue screen with mouse" lockup has now occurred with people using SIO2PC adapters as well as with my multiple FujiNet devices on NTSC machines, I think there's some kind of timing related bug in the game's serial I/O code. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rensoup Posted June 24, 2021 Author Share Posted June 24, 2021 2 hours ago, VinsCool said: Unbelievably some of those crap Atari joysticks survived ? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+VinsCool Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 Just now, rensoup said: Unbelievably some of those crap Atari joysticks survived ? That's one of the two that came with one of my 2600's! It also still works mostly fine. The other one is not in a very good condition, it's got missing plastic cover, and as far as I remember it didn't seem to work lol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xrbrevin Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 1 minute ago, rensoup said: Unbelievably some of those crap Atari joysticks survived ? ive seen many with teeth marks on the rubbery stick tho... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxl Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 55 minutes ago, DrVenkman said: I think excellent code, checks the biological footprint and refrains from working in two people who find it lacking the correct parameters. checks what comments you wrote and returns status: fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Level42 Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 10 hours ago, DrVenkman said: This. And with all due respect, this is why - while emulators are undoubtedly indispensable for most modern development - testing on real hardware absolutely should be part of the process. Real hardware is rarely as precise or predictable as an emulator. Don’t turn things around my friend. If an emulator doesn’t emulate the hardware exactly like the hardware behaves, it’s the emulator which isn’t precise. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazzspeed Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 5 minutes ago, Level42 said: Don’t turn things around my friend. If an emulator doesn’t emulate the hardware exactly like the hardware behaves, it’s the emulator which isn’t precise. You can't emulate the production variances of real hardware, and this seems to be the issue here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Level42 Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 (edited) 30 minutes ago, rensoup said: Unbelievably some of those crap Atari joysticks survived ? Funnily, I just received a Chinese repro of the 2600 stick (AliExpress for less than 10 euros) which I ordered just “for the original looks” and I was REALLY surprised by it. It looks great and feels great. It has a nice click, not like micro-switches though and I actually played quite a bit of PoP with it. The game really lends itself because it’s like a “click-move” game. the button is a bit too stuff for my taste though, but since you hardly use it in PoP.....don’t think it’s going to be comfortable with fast shooters.... but all in all I am seriously impressed by that Chinese knock-off, it is WAYYYYY better than the original Atari ones that came with our VCS 4-switcher BITD....I also hope it will last longer....the originals broke done after only about 7 months....just after warranty expired.... .....it’s also cool because who would have expected back then you could still get these brand new in the year 2021 ? Edited June 24, 2021 by Level42 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Level42 Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 2 minutes ago, Mazzspeed said: You can't emulate the production variances of real hardware, and this seems to be the issue here. Which is why emulators suck. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Level42 said: If an emulator doesn’t emulate the hardware exactly like the hardware behaves, it’s the emulator which isn’t precise. Whether the emulator is precise or not is not the point. The point is that it if is assumed to be precise and the importance of real hardware testing is not appreciated, you end up... well, here. Edited June 24, 2021 by flashjazzcat 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazzspeed Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 1 minute ago, Level42 said: Which is why emulators suck. They're great as a development tool, but they need to be backed up by testing on a wide range of real hardware under varying configurations. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 14 minutes ago, Level42 said: Don’t turn things around my friend. If an emulator doesn’t emulate the hardware exactly like the hardware behaves, it’s the emulator which isn’t precise. Which is why, knowing that all emulators are reproductions and therefore not original, it was said to test on the target (real) hardware. We don't have to argue bullshit semantics do we? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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