MiSTer FPGA - 7800 Core

[Jstick]

4 hours ago, Rodney Hester said:

Ordinarily, yes, but that's precisely what multi mode (in the 7800 core) is for.  If it can separate axes into separate controllers, why not buttons?

Yes, "multi mode" IS the workaround/hack we have been discussing, which does in fact split buttons as well ("Paddle" to controller 1, and "Fire II" to controller 2).

[Rodney Hester]

22 minutes ago, Jstick said:

Yes, "multi mode" IS the workaround/hack we have been discussing, which does in fact split buttons as well ("Paddle" to controller 1, and "Fire II" to controller 2).

And that's where the issue is.  If instead of a separate 'paddle' button it simply uses Fire 1 for controller 1, the entire problem goes away for _all_ controller types (except possibly Driving, I have no idea what its ultimate fate will be).

[Jstick]

35 minutes ago, Rodney Hester said:

And that's where the issue is.  If instead of a separate 'paddle' button it simply uses Fire 1 for controller 1, the entire problem goes away for _all_ controller types (except possibly Driving, I have no idea what its ultimate fate will be).

Ah, so your question this whole time was "Why does the paddle button exist"?

 

This is due to the special spinner code in MiSTer (Mr. Spinner) that allows spinner devices to be merged with the current controller, so that you can add spinner control to any setup (joystick, gamepad, etc.).  In order for the spinner to not interfere with the main controller, it is assigned a dedicated button, which is then overlaid onto the other controller when mapping (This is all done at the MiSTer framework level, unrelated to the 7800 core).

Since "multi mode" is a hack at the core level (and not the framework level), using "Fire 1" would break support for other spinners' "Paddle" button.  The answer would be to make a change at the HPS level, but it appears (according to Kitrinx) that Sorgelig does not want a specific exception for the D9 adaptor hacked into Main.

 

(Also, the 7800 core itself uses the separate "Paddle" and "Fire 1" buttons to autodetect into Paddle and Joystick mode respectively, when controller type is set to "Autodetect").

Edited February 9, 2023 by Jstick

[Rodney Hester]

Yes, it was...and that's unfortunate.  I understand why the spinner merge exists, but it's a shame that it complicates paddle handling for this core so much.

 

To a certain degree, I agree with Sorge that the D9 shouldn't have special handling in Main...its usefulness as an adapter is extremely wide, but the fact that a single VID/PID can result in so many widely varied inputs based on the attached controller makes it very difficult to manage outside of dedicated emulators.

 

Ugh.

[Lamer Deluxe tm]

I discovered this thread just now.

 

I very thoroughly cleaned my paddle potentiometers today only to find zero jitter improvement when connecting them to my PC, using a Daptor D9 (still on January 28th firmware at the moment). Tried touching the DB9 shielding and the jittering went away, as described here. Then I tried touching the USB connector shielding and got the same jitter-free result. So both grounds are indeed connected.

 

Interestingly, when I touch the metal housing of my keyboard, the jittering also stops.

 

My PC is not grounded, as the sockets here don't have grounding pins.

 

This reminds me of a cheap drawing tablet I used to have for my Amiga, it also jittered a lot, until I grounded my Amiga to the central heating pipes, not an optimal solution.

[Jstick]

2 hours ago, Lamer Deluxe tm said:

I discovered this thread just now.

 

I very thoroughly cleaned my paddle potentiometers today only to find zero jitter improvement when connecting them to my PC, using a Daptor D9 (still on January 28th firmware at the moment). Tried touching the DB9 shielding and the jittering went away, as described here. Then I tried touching the USB connector shielding and got the same jitter-free result. So both grounds are indeed connected.

 

Interestingly, when I touch the metal housing of my keyboard, the jittering also stops.

 

My PC is not grounded, as the sockets here don't have grounding pins.

 

This reminds me of a cheap drawing tablet I used to have for my Amiga, it also jittered a lot, until I grounded my Amiga to the central heating pipes, not an optimal solution.

I think it's clear at this point that the jitter is not a MiSTer problem.  The sockets in my country don't have grounding pins either (although the DE10-Nano PSU is only 2-prong in any case).

 

The question I have now is whether there is anyone who DOESN'T have this jitter issue with the D9.  Maybe that will help us narrow down the issue.

 

In the meantime, anyone have any suggestions for an alternative to touching the D9 adapter to remove the jitter?  We have no radiator heating here, otherwise I might have tried that (as ridiculous as it sounds).

[dualcam]

15 hours ago, Jstick said:

The question I have now is whether there is anyone who DOESN'T have this jitter issue with the D9.  Maybe that will help us narrow down the issue.

Well... I don't see it here 😀, and have had confirmation from another person on the forum that does not see this.

 

EDIT: I should add that in my case, it is with a laptop which is what I primary use anymore.  Will try on a desktop with and w/o the AC grounded.

 

Tom

http://2600-daptor.com/

Edited February 10, 2023 by dualcam

[Tantan]

iCode has a single adapter called the Duo Plus that can handle multiple joysticks and 4 paddles and it works great with MiSTer. See their channel on YouTube as it provides a walkthrough on how to setup the Mister easily to work with the device.  Here is the link to the Mister config video: 

 

[dualcam]

Had a chance to try on a desktop, and with an ungrounded plug seeing lots of jitter (none with it grounded).  Will try and see if I can make a change to the D9 to stop this, but in the mean time, make sure your system is grounded.  One of the persons on this topic has discovered that the 3-pronged AC outlet they were plugging in to was not actually grounded.

 

Tom

http://2600-daptor.com/

 

Edited February 11, 2023 by dualcam
spelling

[Lamer Deluxe tm]

Not all homes have sockets with ground pins in all rooms. Here in the Netherlands it was common to only have those in the kitchen, up to the eighties or nineties (and most of those homes are still like that today).

 

Also, like someone mentioned, the MiSTer doesn't have a grounded power supply. Neither do my monitors. So even if the sockets did have grounding, it wouldn't help.

 

So it would be great if this could somehow be fixed in the adapters.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Lamer Deluxe tm

[Rodney Hester]

10 hours ago, Tantan said:

iCode has a single adapter called the Duo Plus that can handle multiple joysticks and 4 paddles and it works great with MiSTer. See their channel on YouTube as it provides a walkthrough on how to setup the Mister easily to work with the device.  Here is the link to the Mister config video: 

I get _worse_ jitter with the Duo Plus on MiSTer than I do with the D9.  Granted, I am using narrow range on the Duo to match original hardware, which does contribute, but I get the same jitter from the Duo on RetroPie as well.

[Jstick]

Where I am, regular household outlets don't have ground wires (only receptacles meant for appliances are grounded).

Even then, not sure how I could ground the MiSTer using the 2-prong power adapter that comes with the DE10-nano.

[RockLobster]

BTW, just want to report in some 2600 Paddle movement ranges between a real 2600, the 2600dapter-d9 and @Kitrinx 's latest 7800 core with Paddle SNAC support using the Atari 2600 Breakout as the onscreen measuring stick.

 

I used the 2600 Breakout's single player game to move the paddle from the left to right.  I measured where the paddle position is when it can't move the player bar any further left and I measured the CW turn until the player bar can't move any further right.

 

I did this for on:

1. Real(tm) Atari 2600  [Green]
2. SNAC w/ Kitrinx's latest 7800 core  [Orange]
3. 2600dapter w/ the same 7800 core  [Pink]

The degrees of CW rotation to go from left to right:

1. Real 2600:  75 deg
2. MiSTer SNAC:  90 deg
3. 2600dapter-d9:  150 deg

[RockLobster]

On 2/9/2023 at 6:36 PM, Jstick said:

I think it's clear at this point that the jitter is not a MiSTer problem.  The sockets in my country don't have grounding pins either (although the DE10-Nano PSU is only 2-prong in any case).

 

The question I have now is whether there is anyone who DOESN'T have this jitter issue with the D9.  Maybe that will help us narrow down the issue.

I don't know if it's quite that clear as I do not have the jitter problem on the MiSTer using the 2600dapter-d9 (Jan 2023 firmware) and recent versions of the 2600/7800 core.

 

Here's a video to demonstrate the smoothness of my bad gameplay.   Happy to try other tests you all have in mind to help narrow down the issue.

 

@dualcam @Rodney Hester @Lamer Deluxe tm @Tantan @dualcam

 

https://streamable.com/iy6iue

 

[dualcam]

On 2/11/2023 at 1:21 PM, Lamer Deluxe tm said:

Not all homes have sockets with ground pins in all rooms. Here in the Netherlands it was common to only have those in the kitchen, up to the eighties or nineties (and most of those homes are still like that today).

 

Also, like someone mentioned, the MiSTer doesn't have a grounded power supply. Neither do my monitors. So even if the sockets did have grounding, it wouldn't help.

 

So it would be great if this could somehow be fixed in the adapters.

Do you have a desktop PC you can check the adapter for jitter in Stella?  I have shipped a lot of D9's over-seas over the last 5 years, and am really puzzled that no-one ever reported this problem before.  Not doubting anyone on this, I have been able to recreate this here, but seems lots of people should have encountered this and yet puzzling none of them ever reported this back.  Wondering if there is still more to this.

 

Tom

http://2600-daptor.com/

[Jstick]

1 hour ago, RockLobster said:

I don't know if it's quite that clear as I do not have the jitter problem on the MiSTer using the 2600dapter-d9 (Jan 2023 firmware) and recent versions of the 2600/7800 core.

I say it's clear because the same jitter issue happens on my PC using Stella, which has nothing whatsoever to do with the MiSTer.

 

36 minutes ago, dualcam said:

Do you have a desktop PC you can check the adapter for jitter in Stella?  I have shipped a lot of D9's over-seas over the last 5 years, and am really puzzled that no-one ever reported this problem before.  Not doubting anyone on this, I have been able to recreate this here, but seems lots of people should have encountered this and yet puzzling none of them ever reported this back.  Wondering if there is still more to this.

I'm not sure if you missed my post here, but basically with the dip switches set to auto detect the jitter is greatly reduced.
It's only with the dip switches set to MiSTer mode that large amounts of jitter are obvious.

 

This would explain why you haven't had reports on this in the last 5 years, as the MiSTer-targeted firmware is new.

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Jstick

[RockLobster]

44 minutes ago, Jstick said:

I say it's clear because the same jitter issue happens on my PC using Stella, which has nothing whatsoever to do with the MiSTer.

 

Oh I misread your original post.  I thought you suggested that it was clear it WAS a MiSTer problem.   My mistake.

 

EDIT:  Forgot to ask (and have not read too much above), what is the behavior of your paddles on a real 2600?

Edited February 13, 2023 by RockLobster

[Lamer Deluxe tm]

8 hours ago, dualcam said:

Do you have a desktop PC you can check the adapter for jitter in Stella?  I have shipped a lot of D9's over-seas over the last 5 years, and am really puzzled that no-one ever reported this problem before.  Not doubting anyone on this, I have been able to recreate this here, but seems lots of people should have encountered this and yet puzzling none of them ever reported this back.  Wondering if there is still more to this.

 

Tom

http://2600-daptor.com/

I'm puzzled as well by this. My computer is a brand new desktop PC that I built a few months ago. Like I mentioned it is not grounded. I'm not using the MiSTer firmware yet, I'm still on the January 28th firmware. And I'm using 2600 mode. I got my Daptors a few weeks ago (and reported to you on the Amiga mouse jitter problems).

[dualcam]

14 hours ago, Jstick said:

I say it's clear because the same jitter issue happens on my PC using Stella, which has nothing whatsoever to do with the MiSTer.

 

I'm not sure if you missed my post here, but basically with the dip switches set to auto detect the jitter is greatly reduced.
It's only with the dip switches set to MiSTer mode that large amounts of jitter are obvious.

 

This would explain why you haven't had reports on this in the last 5 years, as the MiSTer-targeted firmware is new.

 

Yes, I saw your original.  I was wondering what Lamer Deluxe tm's experience was.  And, yes, the new MiSTer specific scaling will amplify any jitter.

 

Tom

http://2600-daptor.com/

[dualcam]

6 hours ago, Lamer Deluxe tm said:

and reported to you on the Amiga mouse jitter problems

That was something unrelated to this - was a firmware bug.

 

Tom

http://2600-daptor.com/

[Lamer Deluxe tm]

1 hour ago, dualcam said:

That was something unrelated to this - was a firmware bug.

 

Tom

http://2600-daptor.com/

I know, thanks again for the fast and thorough support with that.

[Lamer Deluxe tm]

Tom sent me a pair of Daptor PDLs to test if that would solve the paddle jitter problem. They use a different way of reading the paddle resistance.

 

At first I still had the same jitter problem with the PDL adapter. Turned out using a different USB cable fixed that. That same cable still had the jitter problem with the D9 adapter.

 

So the Daptor PDL is a good solution for using original Atari or Commodore paddles on the MiSTer. It has a MiSTer dip switch setting, though from what I understand, the correct range with the 7800 core is still being determined together with Kitrinx.

[Lamer Deluxe tm]

Apologies for the white on black text in my previous message, apparently my dark reader plug-in, that darkens my browser, causes that.

[dualcam]

Finally have a MiSTer for myself.  Tested the paddle scaling using a 2600-PDL and the last official 7800 core release - Atari7800_20221227.  Was off about 30% compared to the real hardware, so have posted a firmware update that looks to now be a spot on match -

http://2600-daptor.com/2600-firmware.htm

 

I'll retest and adjust as needed on official core releases.  I don't think I want to chase after work-in-progress core beta versions.

 

Tom

http://2600-daptor.com/

 

[Rodney Hester]

@dualcam - Beautiful - thank you!  Can you describe the steps you followed to configure the 2600-PDL for both MiSTer Main and the core (in terms of input settings)?

 

Also, since the core expects the fire button to be registered as button 1 but paddle as button 3, is that accounted for (so that one can simply swap between joystick and paddle seamlessly without having to reconfigure device or core inputs)?