Atari 130XE keyboard rebuild: vintage keycaps on modern switches

[ScreamingAtTheRadio]

4 minutes ago, Bee said:

@ScreamingAtTheRadio  What is the cost of the PCB when you had it made?  I'm asking what it ran you not for you to sell me one.

 

Has this been uploaded to OSHPARK?

 

I'v been to the GITHUB but I'm confused what is the "current version"

 

Awesome work BTW!

 

Thank you

It hasn't been uploaded to OSH Park. OSH Park tends to be very expensive. I had mine done at JLCPCB, and that's a few tens of dollars for 5 boards. The files to upload are the zip files in the fabrication folder. Let me know what you're trying to do and I can tell you which file to use, but it's probably https://github.com/bleroy/3d-junkyard/blob/main/Atari130MX/Fabrication/130MX.zip. You may select others if you want a plate and adapters.

 

I'm planning on updating the readme to make all that easier.

[Bee]

OSH park. $110.00 Per Qty.3 ~$330 - Sigh , you are so right

 

I have started going down the road of 130XE Remake.  I stumbled on this and a fully new modern solution is very appealing.  Early in your thread you said you had extra parts.  I assumed they are gone at this point.  

 

JLCPCB,  I keep getting "wrong format" with trying to upload those files in the zip.

 

Thank you

 

 

[+scorpio_ny]

6 hours ago, Bee said:

OSH park. $110.00 Per Qty.3 ~$330 - Sigh , you are so right

 

I have started going down the road of 130XE Remake.  I stumbled on this and a fully new modern solution is very appealing.  Early in your thread you said you had extra parts.  I assumed they are gone at this point.  

 

JLCPCB,  I keep getting "wrong format" with trying to upload those files in the zip.

 

Thank you

 

 

Hi @Bee,

Are you uploading the files individually or as zip? Do not extract the files if you are. Just upload the zip file as is and it will process it. When it finishes parsing the file, you will be presented with options for having the board made.

 

[Bee]

yup - i was trying individual files and figured it out and posted last night only problem the internet had gone down when i hit send. 

 

Thank you for the support.

[+scorpio_ny]

Hi @ScreamingAtTheRadio,

 

I see that you have a choc version of the keyboard and it uses adapters for the stitches instead of switch stem replacements. Do you have any photo of the new build? I am curious of how it compares with the earlier MX based version of your keyboard. Also, does it use a plate for the swtiches?

 

Thanks!

 

[ScreamingAtTheRadio]

17 minutes ago, scorpio_ny said:

Hi @ScreamingAtTheRadio,

 

I see that you have a choc version of the keyboard and it uses adapters for the stitches instead of switch stem replacements. Do you have any photo of the new build? I am curious of how it compares with the earlier MX based version of your keyboard. Also, does it use a plate for the swtiches?

 

Thanks!

 

Sure:

The total height of the keyboard is about equivalent to the previous ones, so the fit is pretty good as you can see on the first picture. The keyboard feels better, as no part of the switch was replaced. The typing feel is much more consistent and assembling and printing is easier. You can also choose any type of switch you prefer now, so if you don't like the clicky feel of Kailh box pinks, you can choose a linear or tactile switch, there is a good set of options available. If you do like clicky though, I'd recommend the Kailh Choc Jade switches (pictured above). Given the low profile of the switches, there is no need for a plate as it wouldn't stabilize much (to be frank, its usefulness was marginal to begin with on the previous builds). The main stability issue is the added height from the adapters but it's very mild and the caps don't move laterally much more than on a commercial modern keyboard (a little bit, but not that much). For me, this is the ultimate mechanical keyboard for XE and I'm very happy with it. The only thing I'd maybe improve is add diodes on all keys.

Oh, and since I wasn't against a routing challenge, I threw in a secondary circuit to power LEDs and give some backlighting. Not that it's that useful since the caps have no transparent legends, but it can look pretty cool. I'll try to take a good shot of that later and post it here.

[+scorpio_ny]

Wow that looks great! Do you have adapters for both styles of 130XE keyboards/keycaps or do you only have for the model with the rounded keys?

[ScreamingAtTheRadio]

12 minutes ago, scorpio_ny said:

Wow that looks great! Do you have adapters for both styles of 130XE keyboards/keycaps or do you only have for the model with the rounded keys?

There are adapters for all kinds of XE keys, and even for XL and for regular Cherry MX-style caps, because why not?

 

All can be found here: 3d-junkyard/Atari130MX/Stems at main · bleroy/3d-junkyard (github.com) with the parametric scad model.

 

This is probably the one you're looking for 3d-junkyard/kailh-choc-to-xe-square.stl at main · bleroy/3d-junkyard (github.com)

[Bee]

@ScreamingAtTheRadio

 

Do you have any extra of the Kailh Choc PCBs?

 

This is the version I'm interested in doing at this point.  My I ask what OS are you making your zip files in?  The zip file for this one says invalid zip on my Mac and Oshpark.  I'm not buying at Oshpark but with the files uploaded there it gives me all kinds of stats on the PCB.

 

Thank you

[ScreamingAtTheRadio]

2 hours ago, Bee said:

Do you have any extra of the Kailh Choc PCBs?

Unfortunately, no, they're all gone.

2 hours ago, Bee said:

This is the version I'm interested in doing at this point.  My I ask what OS are you making your zip files in?  The zip file for this one says invalid zip on my Mac and Oshpark.  I'm not buying at Oshpark but with the files uploaded there it gives me all kinds of stats on the PCB.

I use Windows, and the zip opens fine with the built-in zip support as well as 7-zip. I even checked it on a mac just now, and it opens fine. It must have to do with how you download the file or something like that. The zips are just all the files with the right prefix, in a zip file anyways. If you download all the Choc* files from the Fabrication folder and zip them, it will be exactly the same.

Edited September 24, 2022 by ScreamingAtTheRadio
added quote

[Bee]

@ScreamingAtTheRadio fww - I figured it out.  Chrome was corrupting the downloads on 3 PCs and 2 Operating Systems.

 

Here is a GBR file in text editor on my Mac.

 

I dropped into Safai and got the files.  Now I can previewit, it looks "Awesome." I'll be building one soonish, depending on the shipping gods.

 

Thank you , again for your help and an Awesome Project!

Edited September 25, 2022 by Bee

[ScreamingAtTheRadio]

22 hours ago, Bee said:

I figured it out.  Chrome was corrupting the downloads on 3 PCs and 2 Operating Systems.

Glad you could figure it out. Still seems very weird Chrome would corrupt it. I hope your build goes well from now.

[Bee]

@ScreamingAtTheRadio  What slicer software are you using from your stems?

 

Thank you

 

[ScreamingAtTheRadio]

Chitubox.

[Bee]

Thx - Stems coming up ...

[ScreamingAtTheRadio]

I took some photos of the new ChocXE low-profile keyboard with backlighting on (this is with 12V applied between pins 1 and 3 of the extended pinout on the top-left of the board, 100Ohm resistors on each key and a global 1.2k on R61; also shorted JP1 and JP2):

 

[XL Freak]

On 11/3/2021 at 8:58 PM, ScreamingAtTheRadio said:

Also, new adapters have been tested and they work fine. They are also very cheap to produce (remember, 0.8mm or less). There's one for IDC and one for FFC.

for those of us that aren't well versed, could some pics of the FFC and IDC connectors actually assembled and in use be presented? the FFC from what i can tell kinda looks like how a laptop keyboard connects, and i don't like those, cause i break most of them trying to get them disconnected lol - don't get me wrong, i think the little pcb going in the ribbon cable slot is a wonderful idea, and i was wondering how that was gonna work, i had just assumed it was going to be an old school ribbon cable with wires in it, like what i think the IDC setup is. thx guys

Edited October 11, 2022 by XL Freak

[ScreamingAtTheRadio]

IDC: think floppy and old-style IDE cables. They take a LOT of height.

 

Also an option with some patience: I've been thinking about producing a flexible PCB design that could go into FFC on the keyboard side and the original Atari connector on the motherboard side. I've seen another project doing that (can't remember where) and thought it was a wonderful idea, no adapter necessary.

[XL Freak]

12 hours ago, ScreamingAtTheRadio said:

a flexible PCB design that could go into FFC on the keyboard side and the original Atari connector on the motherboard side

that sounds really cool. but... is that what the original stock keyboard mylars were, at least in a sense?

[Matej]

This is so cool! My dream!

[ScreamingAtTheRadio]

4 hours ago, XL Freak said:

that sounds really cool. but... is that what the original stock keyboard mylars were, at least in a sense?

It's different in a number of ways:

1. It's not the whole PCB, it would only make the connection between the motherboard and the keyboard PCB, the keyboard PCB remains a traditional rigid PCB.

2. The mylar had what looks like carbon traces, which were optimized to make a connection when the key dome is pressed down. They were an essential part of the switch, which is terrible as it degrades with time, as we all know, and is very easy to damage by folding it or cleaning it with the wrong product. Those flexible PCBs only have exposed contacts on the ends to provide a stable connection with robust connectors. The traces themselves are both robust and flexible (and can even be folded).

3. They are easily available, whereas the Atari mylars will run out eventually unless I'm mistaken.

[pseudografx]

I checked prices at AliExpress and other sites and it turns out that the Kailh Choc switches are quite expensice, so I was wondering if you have considered some cheaper alternatives such as Gateron or Redragon low-profile switches.

[ScreamingAtTheRadio]

I have not, but it should be fairly easy to build an adapter for those. I don't have a sample, but if somebody wants to send me one, I can design an adapter (the datasheet https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0565/8070/2297/files/SPEC-KS-27C10B050NN-X5-Blue_Switch.pdf?v=1660967520 should give me a good first approximation, but in my experience a few iterations are necessary with the real object). For the footprint, I'm about to start a new revision that unifies the PCBs for 130MX and ChocXE, I'll try to allow for the Gateron low-profile footprint as well. No promises, it's always more difficult to allow for more footprints but it seems doable.

[ScreamingAtTheRadio]

As I'm working on the next revision of my keyboards, I could use some feedback about the changes I'm considering.

1. Stabilizers: I'm very unhappy about the current Costar stabilizer solution. I'm considering printing parts that mount under the key cap and play the role of an adapter for much more stable PCB-screwed Durock v2 stabilizers.
2. Diodes on each switch (except Fn keys) to avoid ghosting on multiple key presses. They will be surface-mount and I'll make sure you can easily short the footprint with a drop of solder if you don't want the diodes.
3. Moving the Pi Pico footprint to an optional daughter board as using the keyboard on a PC is an optional scenario that only makes routing more complex. Note that daughter board would work with any XE keyboard, even entirely vintage.
4. Alternative layouts for custom key cap sets such as Gianluca's project, with jumper settings for configuring the roles of additional keys such as keys around a smaller space bar.
5. Support for multiple switch footprints (Choc, MX, Gateron, Red Dragon) to unify the ChocXE and 130MX PCBs.
6. Additional adapter 3D models for Gateron and Red Dragon low-profile budget switches.
7. Flexible Circuit Board to replace FCC to connect the keyboards to the Atari motherboard without an adapter (FCB plugs directly into the stock Atari 24 pin connector).
8. New cap sets support (see multiple layouts above) in addition to vintage cap support: collaborations with other users, more on that when details become available.
9. 3D models for MX footprint function keys.
10. Backlighting circuit: this is already on ChocXE, but would be available for all on the new unified board.

What do you think about those? What did I miss? Is there anything you dislike about the current design?

[+scorpio_ny]

18 hours ago, ScreamingAtTheRadio said:

As I'm working on the next revision of my keyboards, I could use some feedback about the changes I'm considering.

1. Stabilizers: I'm very unhappy about the current Costar stabilizer solution. I'm considering printing parts that mount under the key cap and play the role of an adapter for much more stable PCB-screwed Durock v2 stabilizers.
2. Diodes on each switch (except Fn keys) to avoid ghosting on multiple key presses. They will be surface-mount and I'll make sure you can easily short the footprint with a drop of solder if you don't want the diodes.
3. Moving the Pi Pico footprint to an optional daughter board as using the keyboard on a PC is an optional scenario that only makes routing more complex. Note that daughter board would work with any XE keyboard, even entirely vintage.
4. Alternative layouts for custom key cap sets such as Gianluca's project, with jumper settings for configuring the roles of additional keys such as keys around a smaller space bar.
5. Support for multiple switch footprints (Choc, MX, Gateron, Red Dragon) to unify the ChocXE and 130MX PCBs.
6. Additional adapter 3D models for Gateron and Red Dragon low-profile budget switches.
7. Flexible Circuit Board to replace FCC to connect the keyboards to the Atari motherboard without an adapter (FCB plugs directly into the stock Atari 24 pin connector).
8. New cap sets support (see multiple layouts above) in addition to vintage cap support: collaborations with other users, more on that when details become available.
9. 3D models for MX footprint function keys.
10. Backlighting circuit: this is already on ChocXE, but would be available for all on the new unified board.

What do you think about those? What did I miss? Is there anything you dislike about the current design?

This would be amazing! Here is some additional input/questions:

 

1. Stabilizers: Would the adapter for the stabilizer accommodate all the different switch types and different stabilizer standards?

2. Diodes: This would be welcome though it may mean extra work for those who do not want this option.

3.  Pi Pico footprint to an optional daughter board: Personally, I will probably only use the keyboard with my Atari.

4. Alternative layouts: This is great and I am all for it, but would you also be able to accommodate the stabilizers for different spacebars too?

7. Flexible Circuit Board: For myself, this would be a welcome addition since it would simplify the connection to the stock Atari PCB. My only concern is the sourcing of the part. With all the shortages happening, it should be a a readily available part.

8. New cap sets: This would amazing since one could use a standard keycap set or have one commissioned that uses the standard sized keys (i.e spacebar)

10.Backlighting: I have not looked closely at the Choc set, but would this be with through the hole LED's or SMD components?

 

Thank you again for all your hard work!!!