Atari 800 XL Remake

[reifsnyderb]

7 hours ago, Spancho said:

Can you please cater for a DIN8 socket as monitor port?

I am pretty sure that a DIN5 & 8 share the same 5 pins at the same location on the PCB.

A DIN 5 or DIN 8 connector can now be used.  I checked out several different footprint variations and settled on a combination of 2 that should make this footprint compatible for many newer connectors.  To make it easier, I put silkscreen on for the pin numbers so they can be confirmed.  If somebody would like to use the monitor port for something else, it can be re-configured.  If the 3 UAV jumpers are pulled and the Stock Monitor Audio jumper is removed, 7 of the 8 pins are now available so the monitor connector can be used for anything they like.  (Pin 2 is always ground.)  With all of the header pins in the general area, there are plenty of options.

 

 

Edited November 13, 2021 by reifsnyderb

[reifsnyderb]

Also added:

 

All 8 pins of PORTB now go to the memory management CPLD.  One pin from the memory management CPLD goes to the MMU CPLD.  So by re-programming the CPLD's, many memory banking possibilities are opened up.  (I did this in response to a post about an experimental memory banking scheme.)

 

[cwilbar]

7 hours ago, reifsnyderb said:

A DIN 5 or DIN 8 connector can now be used.  I checked out several different footprint variations and settled on a combination of 2 that should make this footprint compatible for many newer connectors.  To make it easier, I put silkscreen on for the pin numbers so they can be confirmed.  If somebody would like to use the monitor port for something else, it can be re-configured.  If the 3 UAV jumpers are pulled and the Stock Monitor Audio jumper is removed, 7 of the 8 pins are now available so the monitor connector can be used for anything they like.  (Pin 2 is always ground.)  With all of the header pins in the general area, there are plenty of options.

 

7 hours ago, reifsnyderb said:

 

Note there are two different ground/shell spacings for the ground/shell of the DIN port.  Atari used the wider (older?) spaced variety (easy to find on eBay), and newer? ones (easily found on DigiKey) have narrower spacing between the shell/ground pins of the DIN port.  It might be nice to support either type by using oval grounding holes, or there might be space for 4 holes ?  The ones I am referring to are the 2 near the edge of the PCB.

 

 

Edited November 14, 2021 by cwilbar

[reifsnyderb]

26 minutes ago, cwilbar said:

 

Note there are two different ground/shell spacings for the ground/shell of the DIN port.  Atari used the wider (older?) spaced variety (easy to find on eBay), and newer? ones (easily found on DigiKey) have narrower spacing between the shell/ground pins of the DIN port.  It might be nice to support either type by using oval grounding holes, or there might be space for 4 holes ?  The ones I am referring to are the 2 near the edge of the PCB.

 

 

I just checked and the spacing is completely incompatible.  I also tried to have a 5mm barrel connector for the power as an option and that didn't work out, either.  

[reifsnyderb]

Almost ready to get the board made....

[+mytek]

1 hour ago, cwilbar said:

It might be nice to support either type by using oval grounding holes, or there might be space for 4 holes ?

On the 5-pin DINs used in my MIDI boards I went with the 4 holes, and added holes for locking pegs if so desired (they add extra strength). So with this setup I can use whatever jacks I wish, assuming they are 5-pin versions.

 

 

 

And on the 576NUC+ I went with this CUI brand 8-pin Din, and just skipped the extra holes because I couldn't find a supporting case for needing them. Also this jack worked much better than the Switchcraft alternative which I found it too easy to rotate and still engage the 5-pin DIN plug, thus off-setting it by one pin position in either direction. The CUI pictured below is much better in this regard.

 

 

 

 

7 minutes ago, reifsnyderb said:

Almost ready to get the board made....

I don't see the footprint for the U1MB. Did you decide to not include that?

 

Edited November 14, 2021 by mytek

[reifsnyderb]

26 minutes ago, mytek said:

On the 5-pin DINs used in my MIDI boards I went with the 4 holes, and added holes for locking pegs if so desired (they add extra strength). So with this setup I can use whatever jacks I wish, assuming they are 5-pin versions.

 

 

 

And on the 576NUC+ I went with this CUI brand 8-pin Din, and just skipped the extra holes because I couldn't find a supporting case for needing them. Also this jack worked much better than the Switchcraft alternative which I found it too easy to rotate and still engage the 5-pin DIN plug, thus off-setting it by one pin position in either direction. The CUI pictured below is much better in this regard.

 

 

 

 

I don't see the footprint for the U1MB. Did you decide to not include that?

 

I have the SDF-80J's in my BOM.  They use the narrower footprint.  I didn't see any new 8 pin DIN's with the wide footprint.  My thought is that relying on old stocks of parts off of ebay isn't a good idea.  Your footprint looks like it would work great for either old or new style 5 pin DIN's.  It's too bad there is a conflict with 8 pin DIN's.

 

(I've put newer 9 pin connectors in for the joysticks, too, so that old stock doesn't need to be relied on.)

 

I didn't put a footprint in for the U1MB because all of the instructions I've seen show it "floating" over top of the ROM sockets in the 800xl.  I was thinking about having mounting holes with standoffs for it somewhere but since it doesn't have mounting holes....

From the instructions I've read, everything else is ready for an easy installation of the U1MB.  If you have a suggestion as to where to put the footprint and any mounting methods I'll be happy to add it in.

 

 

 

Edited to add:  I'd like to add the 2 holes that are used in the video to mount it, as well.  But I don't know any info about them.  (i.e.  hole spacing, hole size, etc.)

 

 

 

 

)

 

 

Edited November 14, 2021 by reifsnyderb

[+mytek]

11 hours ago, reifsnyderb said:

didn't put a footprint in for the U1MB because all of the instructions I've seen show it "floating" over top of the ROM sockets in the 800xl.  I was thinking about having mounting holes with standoffs for it somewhere but since it doesn't have mounting holes....

From the instructions I've read, everything else is ready for an easy installation of the U1MB.  If you have a suggestion as to where to put the footprint and any mounting methods I'll be happy to add it in.

I was thinking you could do something like the 1088XEL wherever it'll fit on your board, with the ROM(s) and MMU chips perhaps residing underneath. Since you wouldn't need the ROM(s) or MMU with the U1MB in use, I'm thinking that standard double row .1" female headers would work (I had to spec extended versions on the XEL due to chips needing to sit below. However keep in mind that there is a socketed PLCC chip that hangs down underneath the U1MB that you'd want to steer clear of.

 

 

 

Because the U1MB plugs directly into the 3 female headers on the XEL motherboard which also serves to mount the board, no additional mounting holes are required. So in other words you aren't going to use the ribbon cables that come with the U1MB.

 

Earlier I posted a dimensional drawing of the U1MB with the 3 female header locations mapped out (LINK).

 

After the XEL was developed and released, Lotharek was persuaded to change the ribbon cable male headers from right angle to vertical on all the U1MB boards now being sold. Here's what that looks like, and you can see the PLCC socketed chip that I mentioned, as well as the JTAG header that hang down a bit. If you have space to place the U1MB on your motherboard without the need to put any stuff that sticks up very high underneath it, that would be preferred.

 

 

EDIT: It would have to be confirmed if standard double row female headers would give sufficient height for the PLCC to clear the motherboard. Might still require extended versions as used in the XEL.

 

 

Edited November 14, 2021 by mytek

[reifsnyderb]

1 hour ago, mytek said:

I was thinking you could do something like the 1088XEL wherever it'll fit on your board, with the ROM(s) and MMU chips perhaps residing underneath. Since you wouldn't need the ROM(s) or MMU with the U1MB in use, I'm thinking that standard double row .1" female headers would work (I had to spec extended versions on the XEL due to chips needing to sit below. However keep in mind that there is a socketed PLCC chip that hangs down underneath the U1MB that you'd want to steer clear of.

 

 

 

Because the U1MB plugs directly into the 3 female headers on the XEL motherboard which also serves to mount the board, no additional mounting holes are required. So in other words you aren't going to use the ribbon cables that come with the U1MB.

 

Earlier I posted a dimensional drawing of the U1MB with the 3 female header locations mapped out (LINK).

 

After the XEL was developed and released, Lotharek was persuaded to change the ribbon cable male headers from right angle to vertical on all the U1MB boards now being sold. Here's what that looks like, and you can see the PLCC socketed chip that I mentioned, as well as the JTAG header that hang down a bit. If you have space to place the U1MB on your motherboard without the need to put any stuff that sticks up very high underneath it, that would be preferred.

 

 

EDIT: It would have to be confirmed if standard double row female headers would give sufficient height for the PLCC to clear the motherboard. Might still require extended versions as used in the XEL.

 

 

I get it now.  The U1MB plugs in face down on the board.

[reifsnyderb]

Looking at the headers for the Ultimate 1MB, it looks like I can remove the MMU socket I installed and replace it with the Ultimate 1MB connectors...which will save some space and maybe make it easier to squeeze the Ultimate 1MB in.

 

 

[+mytek]

3 hours ago, reifsnyderb said:

I get it now.  The U1MB plugs in face down on the board.

Yep

 

3 hours ago, reifsnyderb said:

Looking at the headers for the Ultimate 1MB, it looks like I can remove the MMU socket I installed and replace it with the Ultimate 1MB connectors...which will save some space and maybe make it easier to squeeze the Ultimate 1MB in.

I saw that PLCC socket marked as MMU and was a bit confused about what that was for ??? Because the normal Atari MMU is a 20-pin inline dip device.

 

Anyway if you look at this diagram you'll see that P5 also has IDs labeled IC1-IC20 and P1 has IDs labeled IC1-IC28, which are referencing the original MMU and OS ROM pin numbers. So unlike the XEL, if you retain the sockets for those original devices and just parallel connect them to the U1MB female headers, then the U1MB becomes a plug-in option. So in other words without the U1MB, a person can still plug in the original MMU and OS ROM chips and be in business.

 

 

[+mytek]

Looks like standard height double row female headers will work and allow clearance for the U1MB's PLCC socket.

 

 

Keep in mind that I'm resting the PCB directly on the lip of the shrouded male headers, so it appears that there is at least another .062" of clearance assuming the board were flush with the bottom of the female headers instead.

 

[reifsnyderb]

52 minutes ago, mytek said:

Yep

 

I saw that PLCC socket marked as MMU and was a bit confused about what that was for ??? Because the normal Atari MMU is a 20-pin inline dip device.

 

Anyway if you look at this diagram you'll see that P5 also has IDs labeled IC1-IC20 and P1 has IDs labeled IC1-IC28, which are referencing the original MMU and OS ROM pin numbers. So unlike the XEL, if you retain the sockets for those original devices and just parallel connect them to the U1MB female headers, then the U1MB becomes a plug-in option. So in other words without the U1MB, a person can still plug in the original MMU and OS ROM chips and be in business.

 

 

That PLCC socket is for a ATF1502ASV-15JU44 CPLD that replaces the standard MMU.

[+mytek]

59 minutes ago, reifsnyderb said:

That PLCC socket is for a ATF1502ASV-15JU44 CPLD that replaces the standard MMU.

Aww ok. I use this one instead ATF16V8BQL-15PU which is a drop-in for the original.

 

[cwilbar]

23 hours ago, reifsnyderb said:

I just checked and the spacing is completely incompatible.  I also tried to have a 5mm barrel connector for the power as an option and that didn't work out, either.  

Odd, I have DIN5 connectors with the 2 different spacings for the ground shell, and the rest of the connections match up fine.  Can't recall if it is in the UAV installation manual or not, when the modern connector is used, 2 holes are drilled, and larger solder blobs are used to bridge these to the very close grounds used in the spacing of the the original DIN5.  What was incompatible ?

 

Edit: I see reading further on the incompatibility is supporting older DIN5 sockets when supporting newer DIN8 sockets.

Edited November 15, 2021 by cwilbar
update

[reifsnyderb]

4 minutes ago, cwilbar said:

Odd, I have DIN5 connectors with the 2 different spacings for the ground shell, and the rest of the connections match up fine.  Can't recall if it is in the UAV installation manual or not, when the modern connector is used, 2 holes are drilled, and larger solder blobs are used to bridge these to the very close grounds used in the spacing of the the original DIN5.  What was incompatible ?

 

The DIN5 connectors may work...especially the older "wide" ones.  I didn't check.  The newer DIN8 connectors conflict with the pins for a 5mm barrel connector.

 

I am wondering if it would be better to just skip using a DIN connector for power and go with a barrel connector....

[reifsnyderb]

1 hour ago, cwilbar said:

Odd, I have DIN5 connectors with the 2 different spacings for the ground shell, and the rest of the connections match up fine.  Can't recall if it is in the UAV installation manual or not, when the modern connector is used, 2 holes are drilled, and larger solder blobs are used to bridge these to the very close grounds used in the spacing of the the original DIN5.  What was incompatible ?

 

Edit: I see reading further on the incompatibility is supporting older DIN5 sockets when supporting newer DIN8 sockets.

Yeah, that didn't work either.  I tried to setup footprints for them and there were serious overlaps that would have caused shorts.

[reifsnyderb]

Ok.  Here are the new pictures.  Ultimate 1MB has been added.  I also included the schematic for it as I believe this is how it's to be wired.  (Somebody please double-check.)  I only have 4 pins of the control header connected as all of the others didn't seem to apply and they aren't used if it's being installed in an 800XL.

 

I also increased the memory to 1MB onboard.   ?

 

 

 

 

[reifsnyderb]

Does anyone have an opinion on the power connector?  Should I keep with a DIN connector or go to a barrel connector?

[bfollowell]

31 minutes ago, reifsnyderb said:

Does anyone have an opinion on the power connector?  Should I keep with a DIN connector or go to a barrel connector?

 

I don't believe there are too many purists that would want to use a board like this, so there probably won't be too many concerned with using a different PSU. That being said, I think it would be best to use something that isn't physically compatible with any other available Atari PSU type, so as not to accidentally plug-in, say, the 9VAC barrel-style PSU from the 400/800/1200XL/1050.

 

Edited November 15, 2021 by bfollowell

[reifsnyderb]

6 minutes ago, bfollowell said:

 

I don't believe there are too many purists that would want to use a board like this, so there probably won't be too many concerned with using a different PSU. That being said, I think it would be best to use something that isn't physically compatible with any other available Atari PSU type, so as not to accidentally plug-in, say, the 9VAC barrel-style PSU from the 400/800/1200XL/1050.

 

So if it is a different size than those 9v power supplies it should be ok.  I'll check the size of the 9v power supply to make sure.

 

I understand the statement about "purists".  I guess there are several levels here.  One would be where somebody sticks completely with original hardware (and, worst case, a reproduction part), the next where they upgrade the original board (i.e.  by soldering upgrades to it), the next where they replace the board with a modern board (like this one), then there is the 1088XEL where it's mostly modern, and finally an emulator solution.

 

 

[+ZuluGula]

I think 9V Atari supplies are made for 2.5mm center pin. Most off the shelf supplies have 2.1mm center pin.  

[Mathy]

Hello reifsnyderb

 

Please keep the standard XL/XE power supply connector.  Everybody already has power supplies that have these.  Barrel connector come in all kind of configurations (size, polarization, voltage).  Power supplies with the standard DIN plug are way more fool proof.

 

Sincerely

 

Mathy

 

 

[adam242]

Another vote for the standard 7-pin DIN power connector. Most of us already have one (several?) and modern USB adapter cables are readily available for those who don't. Plus, the hole in the case is already the correct size for this plug.

 

The aforementioned XE remake board offered solder holes for both the 7-pin and barrel power jacks. Perhaps you could implement something similar?

[reifsnyderb]

1 hour ago, Mathy said:

Hello reifsnyderb

 

Please keep the standard XL/XE power supply connector.  Everybody already has power supplies that have these.  Barrel connector come in all kind of configurations (size, polarization, voltage).  Power supplies with the standard DIN plug are way more fool proof.

 

Sincerely

 

Mathy

 

 

The 9v power supply confusion problem was a good point and got me thinking about that possibility.  I'll keep the standard DIN plug then.